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Barbell Knee pain and other Squat question

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marcelotine

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1. I have been having some knee pain on the inside of my right knee while squatting for the past few weeks - sometimes I feel a slight pain during the day. However, he pain was not too bad untill today. I squatted today after taking a week break due to life events beyond my control. I tried to repeat my last work set of 145 lbs, but the pain was too much - I did 2 sets and decided to back off, did one more set 135 lbs, and then finally 2 more sets of 115 lbs. My hope is that I can do 5x5 with 145 lbs later this week and continue to move on with my program (Faleev's). However, if this issue persists I'm not sure I will continue to be able to squat. Any thoughts on what are common causes of knee pain associated with squatting and how to resolve them?

I feel the pain when I'm suqatting and not at rest or during the rest of the day except only slightly now and then.

2. What is the ideal squat depth? I have a tendency to go really low due to being relatively flexible and for some reason I just like to go very low - by which I mean several inches beyond parallel. I have been told that I will not be able to do heavier weights if I sqquat like that. (Fyi, I'm doing or attempting to do low bar back squats).

3. If the knee becomes a thing should I dump the squat completely and switch to Russian bear? (This is a program choice question and not a squatting question per se).

Looking forward to all of your advice.
 
There are a ton of potential causes.

Whether you dump squats is up to you -- they're not a must-have for most people.

I do them daily in one form or another, and with weights 3x a week.

It could be a weak glute medius, a weak VMO, bad ankle mobility, bad form, something else, or all of the above.

One thing I wouldn't do, though:

Don't keep adding weight until you get it fixed.

Don't grind up your knees for fear of losing gains -- you'll lose more gains for life if you eff up your knees.

Take a week off and do some prehab.

Wear some knee sleeves every during your normal day for the next few days.

Start with glute medius and VMO work -- if you're having patellofemoral issues, you'll probably see improvement from working those within a few days.

But it could be almost anything.
 
I'll suggest that you post a video of your squats when you're feeling up to another set. Then any feedback will be much more likely to be on target.
 
Post a video of your squats, box squats are always an option too... I have a gnarly left hip from the army... box squats or zercher squats are really only way I can barbell squat now
 
@marcelotine

In addition to the previously mentioned strategies, try experimenting performing a few goblet squats with a medium size kettlebell. Brace the abs, squat to parallel, pause and then come back up. If you don't have pain then the goblet squat is giving you the feedback that bracing and keeping the abs active relieves the knee issue. I've had good success with this in the past by stacking the following: Goblet Squat 2 sets of 5 / Double KB Front Squat 2 sets of 5/ Barbell back squat.
 
It took me years and miles and 2 surgeries (cartilage) to finally figure out what was causing my knee dysfunction and pain. What finally worked after a couple different physical therapists who did not help, was going to a PT in a town that sort of specializes in thrill sports and athletes. So my best advice would be find a PT who works regularly with high level athletes who won't accept b.s., professionals and extreme types. Those PT's generally seem to have the deepest and broadest knowledge. I've heard same from others.
 
The one thing I found to correct my squat from injuring my right knee and lower back (after years of ego lifting when younger) was to follow the goblet squat routine in @Dan John ’s book mass made simple. Might be worth a try as he recommends doing it before anyone even starts doing barbell back squat. Not Saying it will definitely work for you but it worked for me! Also agree with the above comments that a video would be useful.

cheers
Gorg
 
marcelotine said:
1. I have been having some knee pain on the inside of my right knee while squatting for the past few weeks - sometimes I feel a slight pain during the day. However, he pain was not too bad untill today. I squatted today after taking a week break due to life events beyond my control. I tried to repeat my last work set of 145 lbs, but the pain was too much - I did 2 sets and decided to back off, did one more set 135 lbs, and then finally 2 more sets of 115 lbs. My hope is that I can do 5x5 with 145 lbs later this week and continue to move on with my program (Faleev's). However, if this issue persists I'm not sure I will continue to be able to squat. Any thoughts on what are common causes of knee pain associated with squatting and how to resolve them?

I feel the pain when I'm suqatting and not at rest or during the rest of the day except only slightly now and then.

2. What is the ideal squat depth? I have a tendency to go really low due to being relatively flexible and for some reason I just like to go very low - by which I mean several inches beyond parallel. I have been told that I will not be able to do heavier weights if I sqquat like that. (Fyi, I'm doing or attempting to do low bar back squats).

3. If the knee becomes a thing should I dump the squat completely and switch to Russian bear? (This is a program choice question and not a squatting question per se).

Looking forward to all of your advice.
Click to expand...
There are already some great suggestions in this thread - @natewhite39 and @GeoffreyLevens gave good thoughts. @Anna C nailed it, a video might be helpful.

Similar to what Nate said, I would suggest doing some squats without weight, or with a relatively light weight, and see if the pain is there as well. If you can squat pain-free when you're under minimal load, or with a different modality (bodyweight, kettlebell vs barbell) it might indicate something.

I would also try squatting to parallel and not beyond and see if that helps. I have nothing against going lower, but about a year and a half ago I developed some nasty pain on the outside of my knee following a hammy tear. Eventually, I found when I squatted to parallel - no pain. When I squatted all the way down - more pain. Even after this issue had mostly recovered, I saw the same pain resurface anytime I squatted below parallel. I realize we have very different situations, you and I, but I bring that up for three reasons:
1. Squatting "too deep" aggravated an issue, even after I had thought that issue had resolved.
2. Realizing this, I found a way to squat pain-free by adjusting depth.
3. Later, I was able to explore what about the deep position caused pain.

To answer your other two questions:
1. If you can't do the program, you can try to modify the program or jump to a different one. I would be concerned that if you don't deal with the issue, it will resurface. Since this only exists when you squat, it makes me think you need to work with someone competent to teach you to squat better.
2. There is no ideal squat depth. Or, rather, perhaps the ideal squat depth is individual - the deepest you can go without putting yourself in pain or a compromised position. Sports (powerlifter, weightlifter, maybe Crossfitter) will have their own requirements. Some folks I have worked with squatted above parallel because that is what they could do correctly; some I have had to actively teach them not to squat so low.
 
The "red flag" to me is low bar + super deep squats—Agree with Anna and others that recommended posting a video of your squats.
And the recommendation to get an eval and treatment with a clinician or Healthcare provider in your area.
 
Thank you all for your suggestions. I will post a video as soon as I feel reasonably good enough to attempt to squat again.
 
Brett Jones said:
The "red flag" to me is low bar + super deep squats—Agree with Anna and others that recommended posting a video of your squats.
And the recommendation to get an eval and treatment with a clinician or Healthcare provider in your area.
Click to expand...

Yeah, LBSQ is a PL move and they usually stop at parallel.

If one wants to go ATG, HBSQ or FSQ are what we do in O-lifting.
 
Anna C said:
Just below parallel for LB squat. (Thought you said you were a Rippetoe fan? ;) )
Click to expand...

Rip's guidance is for building up athletes who need to build up the posterior chain for sports. He made his name training high school and college age football players. He's not really famous as a PL coach, unlike Simmons.

Powerlifting, on the other hand, only needs to go deep enough to satisfying the judges, which should be hitting parallel. Anything below that is wasted effort. Insert whatever margin you need to satisfy picky judges.

So, with regards to PL, I stand by my statement. ;)
 
watchnerd said:
Powerlifting, on the other hand, only needs to go deep enough to satisfying the judges, which should be hitting parallel. Anything below that is wasted effort. Insert whatever margin you need to satisfy picky judges.
Click to expand...

True... and the definition of parallel varies in different competitions, especially when you throw in local, unsactioned events.

I personally do like Rip's definition - hip crease below top if the knee. It's lower than many people tend to go, but can be easily achieved without compromise of the low back position if the knees are shoved out and stance is shoulder width with feet pointed out about 30 degrees. It's a good style that I've seen work well for many people. However, there are infinite ways to get this wrong, and also infinite other ways to low bar squat differently that are not wrong, just different.
 
Anna C said:
also infinite other ways to low bar squat differently that are not wrong, just different.
Click to expand...

FIFY. ;)

I have pretty strong opinions about whether LBSQ is a good squat for the general populace or most athletes.

PL has a solid reason for preferring LBSQ -- it lefts you lift the most weight in competition.

A few other sports have reasons to over-emphasize hips vs quads.

Stealing from Greg Nuckols once again:

Squat-Hinge-1.png




But for general athletics, and the general populace, if the trainee is also training the hip hinge, balancing it with a more quad dominant squat is often a better choice. KB swings and KB squats (goblet or front) are at nicely opposite ends of the spectrum.

Alan Thrall made a similar case that the LBSQ has a lot of positional similarity to the deadlift.



Similarly, I think trainees should have a *specific reason* to pick LBSQ as their main squat.

However, low bar vs high bar squat debates are older than the internet and this could easily thread jack...
 
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watchnerd said:
I have pretty strong opinions about whether LBSQ is a good squat for the general populace or most athletes.
Click to expand...

Currently, I do not have a strong opinion on what type of squat people should do.

I only have a strong opinion that squats are a great exercise, and one should learn to do it correctly within whatever method one chooses.
 
@Boris Bachmann @Anna C @watchnerd @Brett Jones @Coyotl @Gorg01326 @Nate White @james_1127

Alright folks - please forgive me for the poor video quality. First time doing this. I squatted 5x5 at 135lbs today. I was surprisingly pain free the first 2 sets; felt a little funny on the 3rd set, but nothing painful; 4th set was painful but not as bad as last week - unfortunately, i didn't film the 4th set; 5th set was okay, not too bad. All in all, definitely much better than my last work out - I did go down by 10 lbs. Fyi, i made one change today based on a suggestion from a friend - I made my stance narrower than what I have been doing in the past.

I'm looking forward to your feedback.
Set 1

Set 2

Set 3

Set 5
 
marcelotine said:
@Boris Bachmann @Anna C @watchnerd @Brett Jones @Coyotl @Gorg01326 @Nate White @james_1127

Alright folks - please forgive me for the poor video quality. First time doing this. I squatted 5x5 at 135lbs today. I was surprisingly pain free the first 2 sets; felt a little funny on the 3rd set, but nothing painful; 4th set was painful but not as bad as last week - unfortunately, i didn't film the 4th set; 5th set was okay, not too bad. All in all, definitely much better than my last work out - I did go down by 10 lbs. Fyi, i made one change today based on a suggestion from a friend - I made my stance narrower than what I have been doing in the past.

I'm looking forward to your feedback.
Set 1

Set 2

Set 3

Set 5
Click to expand...


Is this using the same technique you posted about originally?

In the original post, you said...

"I just like to go very low"

...but while there are some differences between the sets, these are more or less to parallel.

That's not in any way a bad thing with LBSQ, but I was expecting ATG based on what you said originally.

There was a little butt wink, but not major.

Other than that, I find it hard to tell from those videos.

Do you have a booty band around?

Sometimes patellofemoral issues can be caused by weak / sleepy / not activating glute medius. If you have a booty band you can put it on, about mid thigh, and use it to help activate your glute medius and cue you to push out as you squat.
 
@watchnerd I have been working on not going to as low based on feedback from a friend. I don't think I ever went as low as ATG, but lower than what I believe is recommended with the low bar squat - so to answer your question, I am doing more or less what I usually do except trying not to go too low and having a narrower stance than I do usually.

And, no I don't have a "booty band" around - I had to Google search that to even figure out what you are talking about. :)
 
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