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Other/Mixed Ladders&Pyramid vs Straight Sets

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Nate

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For hypertrophy, are ladders and pyramids (23510
or Total Tension Conplex) as effective as straight sets (repetition method)? I certainly enjoy them better but want to make sure the down sets arent just junk volume. Most recommend sets near failure, pyramids with changing weights or clusters periodized in for only a portion of your training. I guess in other words, is the same volume of work, done at a higher intensity, though through more submaximal sets, equally effective and sustainable?
thanks!
 
Also is there an advantage between 1:6:1 or 3*235? second would get you 3 exposures to the harder sets. first would be simpler to cycle like ROP.
 
I believe the general formula for hypertrophy is total volume at appropriate intensity (~10RM) and relatively brief rest between sets (~60-90 seconds). And eating like a horse.

ETK can be run for hypertophy by minimizing rest, such as each rung without setting the bell down, or “I go, you go” 1:1 intervals.

In Power to the People, the formula is many back-off sets (80% of the day’s main sets weight) with minimal rest.

Return of the Kettlebell is a hypertrophy program by design, and utilizes high volume (ladders) and short rest as well.
 
I don't think you can answer that question. People are just too different and make different experiences. Some will tell you they had much more hypertrophy with ladders, others say that nothing beat straight sets.
Some will thrive on 3x10 others on 10x3. Some will tell you that rest-pause sets are the number one tool for growth.
I believe many people fail to realize that it most likely wasn't the particular rep scheme that caused more hypertrophy, but that e.g. at the time they used that rep scheme they had a lot less stress at work and sleept a lot better. Then they go on the internet telling everyone how ladders are that magical thing that put so much muscle on them...
I also think that most people are not at the point where something like rep schemes even matter. Just lift heavy stuff for a total of more than ~20 reps, eat, sleep and you will grow.

Just to give you one of those personal experiences:
S&S TGUs and 1H-Swings with the 24 and 32 put some muscle on parts of my chest and particularly on my shoulders, that sets of 5 of military presses with 175lbs and bench presses with 225lbs didn't.
Now whatever caused that you won't see me recommending TGUs and swings over heavy 3x5/5x5 military presses and bench presses if upper body mass is the goal.
 
+1 @Kettlebelephant
+1 @Sean M

I've done work with the 2,3,5 rep latter and put some meat on. total weekly volume (at the proper intensity and short rests) from my experience is what will drive muscle gain. i can't remember/find my source but I believe total weekly volume for hypertrophy is 30ish minimum reps per movement.
for example on the total tension plan on week 1 if you go up to 4 in the pyramid your still 30 for say presses and 39 squats minimum +21 reps for cleans in 1 week, and you'll probably get more! and certainly more by the end of the program (2x weekly volume I think is the least you could do...I've already done to much math).
example 2 if you do Dan Johns Mass you get 40 reps of squats + 48reps (72 if you do the mid week complex) of exercises performed in the complex, + what ever you did in the strength section.
my point is lift heavy stuff a lot, don't rest super long between sets and get swole.
(I didn't check my math super hard, so feel free to call me out :))
 
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@Nate, programs that have proven themselves to be effective for many people should be effective for you, too. Are you looking for a program or are you trying to create your own? And in either case, to what end? What are you trying to achieve?

-S-
 
Part of it is understanding vs. blind copying. But i enjoy high frequency and the intellectual process of programming for myself also. I followed programs like mass made simple, s&s to achieve Simple, and used 531 to get bodyweight press and 2+*bw dead and squat but I want to plot my own course. I feel strong enough for any practical purpose but would like more muscle, maintain power and athleticism for rec sports and be functional for another 30 years (42 now). I lift without another soul around so being mentally engaged helps motivation, as does variety of kbs, bbs and bw. plus the different gyms i train at have different equipment so flexibility helps. so just trying to understand and apply.
 
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The Layer System | T Nation

Layer 3:  Mechanical Stress
Layer 4:  Slow Eccentrics
Layer 5:  Growth Factor Release

AFAIK Those three types of training stimuli are the principal muscle builders.

Thibaudeau on the Mechanical Stress Layer.
This layer is a cluster, which is the most effective method for stimulating growth via mechanical stress. Your objective is to place a lot of mechanical stress on the muscle fibers causing a degradation that will stimulate the "repair and grow" process.

So perhaps clusters are indeed what you're looking for?
Mass Made Simple would use Growth Factor Release primarily because of complexes.
 
The Layer System | T Nation

Layer 3:  Mechanical Stress
Layer 4:  Slow Eccentrics
Layer 5:  Growth Factor Release

AFAIK Those three types of training stimuli are the principal muscle builders.

Thibaudeau on the Mechanical Stress Layer.


So perhaps clusters are indeed what you're looking for?
Mass Made Simple would use Growth Factor Release primarily because of complexes.
Schoenfeld (and probably many others) said it likely comes down to mechanical tension, metabolic stress and muscle damage. But pavels podcast with Tim Ferriss described it differently i think. honestly it got over my head. guess i should just figure the principles.
 
I guess another way to put it is I'd much rather do a weight for 5*2-3-5 than 5*10. It's faster and so much easier i just feel like it can't be effective.
 
Schoenfeld (and probably many others) said it likely comes down to mechanical tension, metabolic stress and muscle damage.

Some of the latest research is starting to indicate that metabolic stress and muscle damage are not as important and possibly even a hindrance to hypetrophy. Volume & time under tension seems be the main drivers & anything you can do to minimise muscle damage & metabolic stress is thought to favorable in some circles.

I've posted this before but this thread is probably a better place for this, so I'll re-post it for people to pick apart.
 
@Maine-ah KB, thank you.

Funny, but I was just informed of this. @Nate and everyone else, please do not post duplicate threads in multiple forums. As soon as they are brought to my attention, one of them will be deleted. In this case, it's just work for me now to combine the posts and figure out where to put them. <sigh>.

Edit - threads combined, move to Training -> Other.

-S-
 
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For hypertrophy, are ladders and pyramids (23510
or Total Tension Conplex) as effective as straight sets (repetition method)? I certainly enjoy them better but want to make sure the down sets arent just junk volume. Most recommend sets near failure, pyramids with changing weights or clusters periodized in for only a portion of your training. I guess in other words, is the same volume of work, done at a higher intensity, though through more submaximal sets, equally effective and sustainable?
thanks!


I had best luck using this strategy, or one so similar as to be essentially the same:
The Best Damn Workout Plan For Natural Lifters | T Nation

Somewhat higher volume and lower rest periods with a pyramid up in load and down in reps. Multiple sets per, but not to be overdone.

Per many of the other responses, the adaptive response to different exercise strategies is individual to an extent, but I have seen many folks get good results using this one. Ladders work a lot better for strength than they do for hypertrophy.

My experience is that Schoenfeld really nailed many of the key elements, but they can be manipulated a number of ways.
 
@North Coast Miller your a better man then I. I've done Push/Pull and upper/lower splits before and I have been toasted on a 4 day week (Push, Pull, Rest, Push, Pull, Rest, Rest) Especially if I'm squatting on my push/lower days. added muscle though.


I get my best hypertrophy results from even more detail oriented breakdown on a 6 day week, but find that just isn't really practical anymore - no time and not enough equipment.

Over the Summer I got some solid results doing push/hinge and pull/squat alternating days - 3-4 times a week. But I did break down the sets just like Thibaudeau describes, using mostly rest/pause but some drop sets if I wasn't hitting at least 6 reps. Also used the slow eccentric. Training to technical failure at least one set per lift where appropriate is also helpful. To me, rest/pause and drop sets are variations of training to failure, not much different than getting a spot on the concentric although not quite as effective either.

I've learned from past mistakes and overtraining, to limit my workout to 40 minutes absolute max and better at 30. Reduce rest periods to get the volume in a shorter period, and in my case some extra fruit an hour/45 minutes prior to the workout makes a big difference.

I currently have no opinion on muscle damage/metabolic stress and whether it is needed (the qualified success of Blood Flow Restriction training would seem to indicate a proof-positive effect to some extent). If you compress the workout you will become more acidic, but your clearance rates improve by training in this manner, and your lactate threshold goes up as well - tho at higher intensity you are liable to blow right past it anyway.

Another factor in my opinion, is that much of the metabolic stress/overtraining/wiped out feeling is from not eating to the workout. Pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but when I was much younger and much more serious about this, my lifting diet was markedly different from an off-day diet. If I had to cancel my workout at the last minute I'd have real trouble getting to sleep that night - those being 1-1.5 hour sessions 5-6 days a week. When I got back into the fitness microcosm, I was surprised to learn that based on contemporary thought I should have felt like poop training the way I did, as I had never felt better in my life before or since.

Ultimately I feel periodizing for hypertrophy is the best way to go about it unless it is a primary goal, and these periods can be as brief as 25% of a larger strength-based routine, as short as 2-3 weeks per.
 
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