Kettlebell Looking for some Advice

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Kettlebelephant

Level 6 Valued Member
@Kozushi

I looked into this at the advice of Mark Limbaga, another forum member. I haven't done them yet, as i am working on Kettlebell Burn currently, but they seem like less volume, yet still useful

KB Workout Snacks
Kettlebell Workout Snacks™

Good luck!
Careful with the KB WO Snacks.
They are simple, but evil.
I finished "Back to the Basics 2.0" last friday and it was brutal. Yes, it's only ~20-25min total per session and only 3x per week, but so is something like KB Muscle.
I almost puked on multiple occasions during the routine, because I took the "as many ladders as possible" literally. If you don't want that to happen you need to force yourself to rest longer than you need.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Evidently, I have LOTS of ideas to try here. Thank you everyone.

The thing is that judo kind of makes you stronger, but not enough for judo itself, and you need supplementary strength building to ensure your judo muscles are strong enough for the rigours of training (let alone handling other strong competitors.) Judo is a lot less strength dependent than wrestling, due to the fact that we can pull laterally on the other guy's jacket to unbalance him, and to push on it to retain our own balance. But, this also means that we don't develop as much muscle by doing it, even though it's certainly a great mobility and cardio workout! (In wrestling, you literally pick people up all the time, as I understand it, so that's lifting weight right there!)

The S&S programme covers so many angles of strength! I can't imagine anything else achieving this in such an efficient way as S&S does. There is a lot of movement, strange positions of balance and challenges to balance, and cardio going on in S&S. The moves mimic perfectly certain important/useful judo moves, and support the strength for others. It's also this close resemblance that makes it hard to train both perfectly together. Some have suggested going down to lighter weights for S&S, but I am already getting very good mobility and cardio from judo itself, and it's the multi-directional STRENGTH building that is especially necessary to get from S&S.

In any case, as is always the case, the answers I got were not at all what I expected to get, so I have a lot to think over and try.
 

guardian7

Level 6 Valued Member
I take the winter off (2 months) from Muay Thai (just for fitness) and focus on strength, a seasonal approach. For maintenance, I would keep the TGUs and dial back the swing volume and not worry about doing it 2-3 times a week. Also, you could wave around your Judo days. A heavy KB day when you don't have Judo the next day. A light day between Judo days etc. Skip the swings on a judo day. You are already strong. Maintenance is what you want while you focus on Judo. It is not as fun though. Using a smaller bell with shorter sets with a focus on power might be an answer as well. Power output drops with the heavier bell at about more than 1/3 bodyweight I read. You are getting a lot of cardio work from Judo, so it may may sense to change the focus of your KB work. You could also try deadlifting once a week for low volume sets like singles. On a day when you don't have Judo the next day. Or you have the weekend for recovery.
 
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Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Basically, my take away from all this is that there isn't one particular approach that is the one way to do it. Hehehe, I suppose I'll just try to do as much as possible.

In response to the last email, I could see the TGUs being the more important exercise for MT, but for judo, the one handed swings are just as important for pulling strength.

In any case, S&S is awesome.
 

MarkSch

Level 6 Valued Member
@Kettlebelephant
>>
Careful with the KB WO Snacks.
They are simple, but evil.
>>

Good point. I haven't actually done them, and in fact found them during a request for fat burning routines. ( I went with Kettlebell Burn 2.0, which is rough but interesting) . It might be too much for Kozushi, who seems to need a supplementary strength program.
 

MarkSch

Level 6 Valued Member
@Kozushi
The thing is that judo kind of makes you stronger, but not enough for judo itself, and you need supplementary strength building to ensure your judo muscles are strong enough for the rigours of training (let alone handling other strong competitors.)

Interesting. I haven't done judo in ...decades. I primarily did aikido, which frowns upon such unsophisticated things as mere muscle power
;) .

Do most judoka do a lot of extra strength work ?
 

guardian7

Level 6 Valued Member
@Kozushi


Interesting. I haven't done judo in ...decades. I primarily did aikido, which frowns upon such unsophisticated things as mere muscle power
;) .

Do most judoka do a lot of extra strength work ?

Judo pushups are a staple.

Been a while too, but I agree that grip is critical for Judo like Gi BJJ. Do you have access to battling ropes? Judo guys do rope climbing a lot I think.

However, the grip development of swings seems like a byproduct. Why not train grip more directly with grippers, pinch plate grips, and bottom up farmer's walks. Use a lighter bell and do a bottoms up TGU since you are so strong already, maybe.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
@Kozushi


Interesting. I haven't done judo in ...decades. I primarily did aikido, which frowns upon such unsophisticated things as mere muscle power
;) .

Do most judoka do a lot of extra strength work ?
HAhaha. Muscle power counts a lot, but it doesn't ever trump leverage. Your muscles add to your use of physics and leverage.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Judo pushups are a staple.

Been a while too, but I agree that grip is critical for Judo like Gi BJJ. Do you have access to battling ropes? Judo guys do rope climbing a lot I think.

However, the grip development of swings seems like a byproduct. Why not train grip more directly with grippers, pinch plate grips, and bottom up farmer's walks. Use a lighter bell and do a bottoms up TGU since you are so strong already, maybe.
Hehehe. Of course judo itself develops a frighteningly strong grip. It's the anti-twist muscles through the torso and back that need extra development outside of judo, since judo uses these at key moments, but tends to OVER use them, unfortunately and I got injured last week in an anti-twist muscle through my left back (I forget the name of it) but it's exactly the one that gets a lot of work with 1h swings.

Farmer's walks and rack carries are excellent things to do - very "real" strength for the whole body frame.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
I think the wisdom I've got from this thread is to simply do S&S as much and as fully and correctly as possible, but not to shy away from doing it less frequently, or doing it incompletely if I really have to.
 

guardian7

Level 6 Valued Member
Hehehe. Of course judo itself develops a frighteningly strong grip. It's the anti-twist muscles through the torso and back that need extra development outside of judo, since judo uses these at key moments, but tends to OVER use them, unfortunately and I got injured last week in an anti-twist muscle through my left back (I forget the name of it) but it's exactly the one that gets a lot of work with 1h swings.

Farmer's walks and rack carries are excellent things to do - very "real" strength for the whole body frame.

I finally see your point. Resisting an o-sot0-gari or something gives a new meaning to anti-rotational stability when someone is trying to rotate you onto your back!
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
I finally see your point. Resisting an o-sot0-gari or something gives a new meaning to anti-rotational stability when someone is trying to rotate you onto your back!
That's the concept. It applies to nearly all moves in judo though, not just a few moves like that one.
 

dc

Level 6 Valued Member
@Kozushi the main problem I see from this thread & reading many of your other posts is you’ve up the weight without meeting any of the standards along the way. You’re using heavy bells for s&s & seem to not want to drop the weight no matter how tiring it becomes, for fear of losing strength. Sorry if I sound a little harsh now but, if you were to swallow your pride in using heavy bells a little & dropped the weight, met the standards properly (not just once) as set out in the book I think you might be surprised at how much stronger you’ll be. S&S is designed to use with other sports because it doesn’t wreck you, even when your chosen sport wrecks you, you should still be able to do s&s without to much trouble. I find s&s actually reenergises me when my other training has knocked me around to much. You regularly say how fantastic s&s is, I’m not really sure you’ve been following s&s properly from the start. You’ve mentioned a number of times before that the 24 is way to light for you, why don’t you hit the time standards with it regularly & see if you still feel the same way. You say the 40 is your work bell yet technically you haven’t reached simple standards yet. I’m jumping on you a bit here because as I’ve said to you in the past, I believe you easily got the potential to hit sinister, if you can get out of your own way so to speak.
 
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piratebum

Level 6 Valued Member
Ill second DC. S&S always leaves me refreshed. Im more energized upon finishing.

I use to push it every session (incorrectly). Now its a tonic, and rarely I push it.
 

Marc

Level 6 Valued Member
@Kozushi regarding @Hector G 's programmes: he has one for BJJ. Did you check it out? (BJJ Strength Secrets). Otherwise, you could also check out Kettlebell STRONG by Geoff Neupert and use it 2x/week with the double C&P.
Really no need to feel bad about not doing so much KB stuff in fovour of judo ;)
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
@Kozushi the main problem I see from this thread & reading many of your other posts is you’ve up the weight without meeting any of the standards along the way. You’re using heavy bells for s&s & seem to not want to drop the weight no matter how tiring it becomes, for fear of losing strength. Sorry if I sound a little harsh now but, if you were to swallow your pride in using heavy bells a little & dropped the weight, met the standards properly (not just once) as set out in the book I think you might be surprised at how much stronger you’ll be. S&S is designed to use with other sports because it doesn’t wreck you, even when your chosen sport wrecks you, you should still be able to do s&s without to much trouble. I find s&s actually reenergises me when my other training has knocked me around to much. You regularly say how fantastic s&s is, I’m not really sure you’ve been following s&s properly from the start. You’ve mentioned a number of times before that the 24 is way to light for you, why don’t you hit the time standards with it regularly & see if you still feel the same way. You say the 40 is your work bell yet technically you haven’t reached simple standards yet. I’m jumping on you a bit here because as I’ve said to you in the past, I believe you easily got the potential to hit sinister, if you can get out of your own way so to speak.
Funnily, it is only recently that I came to realize this. I reread the S&S book, and realized I was doing some things wrongly, such as not truly owning a weight before moving up, and some other details including a few in the technique category. I did injure my right shoulder though over a year ago, and it`s been a slow recovery, so I`m also working around this a bit. But physical reality does not care about such things - swallowing pride is important here indeed. I gave it a test and I don`t have a problem doing everything in under the time limit with the 24kg bell. With the 32kg - not close. So, I`m sticking with it, and when tired going back the the 24, until I`ve owned the 32. I want my name on the list of Sinister attainers.
 
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Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
@Kozushi regarding @Hector G 's programmes: he has one for BJJ. Did you check it out? (BJJ Strength Secrets). Otherwise, you could also check out Kettlebell STRONG by Geoff Neupert and use it 2x/week with the double C&P.
Really no need to feel bad about not doing so much KB stuff in fovour of judo ;)
Hehehe. My judo is going quite well. It`s my kettlebelling that is suffering, and I`m not happy about that. I see them as equals, kettlebelling and judo. Judo is social exercise, and kettlebelling is comfort-of-my-own-home exercise. I know I can be a lot stronger than I am, and the kettlebells especially will take me there. Those are excellent resources that I should consider looking into. Thank you. My goal is Sinister, God willing!
 
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