Nutrition Losing weight

[deviant]

Kenny, it's not the point I was making. Metabolic adaptation is known and easily managed. My point is: without quantifying intake with reasonable accuracy people eventually eat more without realizing it, that's why "automated" diets don't have good results.

Whereas if people take the trouble to count calories overeating without knowing it is simply not possible.

As far as body fat measurement is concerned, bathroom scales are just fine, unless you are a high level competitive bodybuilder. Take measurement every morning and run 5 day moving average, to smooth out fluctuations related to hydration. Accurate enough.

Intensity doesn't trump volume, there is time and context for both. Literature is littered with short term HIIT studies, but ask any bodybuilding coach what they put their trainees through during pre-contest preparation and see how many will tell you it's HIIT only. It's simply not sustainable in the long run.

EPOC is seriously overrated, and if you run the numbers you will see that its effect is modest at best.

 

[deviant]

Good analysis of HIIT.

How Good is HIIT for Fat Loss, Really?

Is HIIT Worth It? Check Out the Latest Research.

 

[Steve Freides]

without quantifying intake with reasonable accuracy people eventually eat more without realizing it, that's why "automated" diets don't have good results.

Whereas if people take the trouble to count calories overeating without knowing it is simply not possible.

Are people really that out of touch with their bodies? I get on the scale every morning - if I find my weight going up and I don't want it to, I eat less, or try to eat better, or both. And the converse is also true - if my weight is going down and I don't want it to, I will eat more, or better, or both.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

...if people take the trouble to count calories overeating without knowing it is simply not possible.

Counting Calories

Yes, that the initial key to losing weight or gaining it for that matter.

Under Reporting

Unfortunately, the primary issue with counting calories is that many individuals under report; they either don't count everything of mis-calculate the number of calories consumed.

That is one of the primary reason that mice are used in many research projects. You can control the mouse's environment; not so with people.

As far as body fat measurement is concerned, bathroom scales are just fine, unless you are a high level competitive bodybuilder.

Measuring Body Fat With The Bathroom Scales

The bathroom scales only provide you with the number of pounds you have lost. Bathroom scales aren't capable of determining how much fat or muscle was lost.

Intensity doesn't trump volume, there is time and context for both.

Place For Both

Yes, there is a time and place for both.

However, the primary benefit of HIIT for weight loss is that it dramatically increases your Post Exercise Metabolic Rate; research has demonstrated HIIT (EPOC) can increase it up to 9 time more than low intensity exercise, such as walking.

The research demonstrated that low intensity activities did burn more during the workout than HIIT. However, the Post Workout Metabolic Rate of HIIT burn more calories than low intensity exercise. Low Intensity Training had virtually not Post Workout increase in Metabolic Rate.

Add to that, Dr Jake Wilson (formally Director of the University of Tampa Human Performance Lab) determined that at some point the body adapts to low intensity exercise.

Metaphorically, it "Resets Your Metabolic Thermostat"; meaning low intensity exercise does't burn what few calories it was burning. This doesn't occur with HIIT.

That are some of the reason obese people can't walk their butt's off.

With that said, let's look at...

Exercise Alone

Exercise alone is a poor method for losing weight. Exercise assist with weight loss via increasing Insulin Sensitivity and burning some additional calories.

HIIT For Bodybuilding

The limiting factor in HIIT Training for Bodybuilders and many other athletes is due to it's intensive nature, it need to be limited when combined with an intensive Bodybuilding or Strength Training Protocol.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[deviant]

Counting Calories

Yes, that the initial key to losing weight or gaining it for that matter.

Calorie balance determines weight loss/gain. Everything else affects body composition.

Under Reporting

Unfortunately, the primary issue with counting calories is that many individuals under report; they either don't count everything of mis-calculate the number of calories consumed.

Who is more likely to miscalculate the size of this room, someone who eyeballs it or someone who uses a measuring tape? You think those who count calories will make larger error than those who follow some sort of exclusion diet - "no white stuff", "only healthy stuff" etc.?

Measuring Body Fat With The Bathroom Scales

The bathroom scales only provide you with the number of pounds you have lost. Bathroom scales aren't capable of determining how much fat or muscle was lost.

I was referring to bathroom scales with the body fat function. Tanita, for example. Sure, it's far from precise, but more than sufficient for practical purposes.

 

[deviant]

EPOC is a greatly overrated and misunderstood in the fitness community. It does exist, but its magnitude is not something that's going to make a serious difference. I don't have the time to dig through the Pubmed, but this article is a good primer:

The Myth of Interval Training and EPOC

The main advantage of HIIT versus LSD is that it take shorter time. But there are disadvantages. It's mentally taxing to push yourself to the maximum effort every time you train and it has higher risk of injury. There is a reason why polarised training calls for only 20% of training done at high intensity. I am not even mentioning that HIIT and LSD train different energy systems and trigger different physiological adaptations.

And it just feels good to get out of the house and enjoy a long run/cycle or walk. Not many things can beat the pleasure of a 15 km walk in the forest. Even if it takes longer than ten 30 second sprints.

And if you do sports that imitate HIIT - BJJ, basketball, rugby etc. - LSD is a very useful mode of recovery, on top of developing aerobic base.

 

[deviant]

Are people really that out of touch with their bodies? I get on the scale every morning - if I find my weight going up and I don't want it to, I eat less, or try to eat better, or both. And the converse is also true - if my weight is going down and I don't want it to, I will eat more, or better, or both.

-S-

Steve, you are talking from the position of wellbeing. When you say your weight is going up you are probably talking about couple of kilos/pounds. Finding yourself 20 kg heavier is a different game altogether, and eating less - or better - is not going to cut it. In theory it will, but if you want results in meaningful time span you have to do something more radical.

It's not that different from lifting: you don't lift "some heavy stuff", even though it will work to an extent for a lot of people. You know the load, reps and sets. Adjusting the input against the output (result) is more reliable way to progress than "lifting more or lifting better", whatever it means.

 

[offwidth]

No one ever woke up one morning and said "wow... I just gained 20kg"

 

[Steve Freides]

Adjusting the input against the output (result) is more reliable way to progress than "lifting more or lifting better", whatever it means.

Sure, but there is more than one variable at work here. I think it oversimplifies things to focus only on calories, and also to separate body composition from bodyweight weight. All these things work together and need to be thought of together. E.g., adding exercise and not changing calories is a positive thing. Improving food quality without changing calories is a positive thing. And so on.

One of my favorite studies was in Pavel's origin kettlebell book and, if memory serves, it mentioned that when kettlebell ballistic training was added, the same number of people gained weight as lost weight, all moving towards middle ground, all doing strength-and-conditioning training, some adding muscle, others becoming lighter.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Calorie balance determines weight loss/gain. Everything else affects body composition.

Calories

If your calories are balanced, you weight essentially remains the same.

In a calorie deficit, weight loss occurs.

In a calorie surplus, weight gain occurs.

Body composition changes with a deficit of calorie intake and a surplus of intake.

Other factors also affect body composition.

Who is more likely to miscalculate the size of this room, someone who eyeballs it or someone who uses a measuring tape? You think those who count calories will make larger error than those who follow some sort of exclusion diet - "no white stuff", "only healthy stuff" etc.?

Under Reporting

Counting calories supersedes eye balling something.

However, research has demonstrated that many individual under report the number of calories that consume for a variety of reasons.

Only Eating Heath Stuff

This is a vague term with no meaning. Many individual have their own misguided concepts about what's healthy and unhealthy.

As the saying goes, The Devil is in then details. In working with someone on diet or exercise, you need to have them provide you with a detailed list of what they are consuming or their exercise protocol.

I was referring to bathroom scales with the body fat function. Tanita, for example. Sure, it's far from precise, but more than sufficient for practical purposes.

BMI Scales

Tanita and other BMI devices are incredibly inaccurate. The amount of variance in someone body fat percentage changes from day to day; even when an individual is weighing at the same time, under the same conditions.

The variance of the Tanita BMI scale can fluctuate a few percent from day to day. As former Personal Trainer and someone who works in Special Fitness Equipment sales, I've seen it.

A variance of the Tanita Scales of 2%, often time more than that occurs, means a 150 lb person with a 2% variance will appears to have 3 lbs more fat or 3 pound more muscle from one day to the next.

Purchasing Tanita Scales is a poor investment.

Finding yourself 20 kg heavier is a different game altogether, and eating less - or better - is not going to cut it. In theory it will, but if you want results in meaningful time span you have to do something more radical.

Eating Less

The information you post vague and confusing.

Eating less make a difference for weight loss.

The majority of individual who go on a diet that is radical. It works short term but not long term.

It's not that different from lifting: you don't lift "some heavy stuff", even though it will work to an extent for a lot of people. You know the load, reps and sets. Adjusting the input against the output (result) is more reliable way to progress than "lifting more or lifting better", whatever it means.

Whatever It Means

I don't know what you are trying to say/mean or if you know what you mean.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

The main advantage of HIIT versus LSD is that it take shorter time. But there are disadvantages. It's mentally taxing to push yourself to the maximum effort every time you train...

Addressed In Previous Post

I addressed this in my previous post. So, you are simply reiterating and echoing what I've stated.

EPOC is a greatly overrated and misunderstood in the fitness community. It does exist, but its magnitude is not something that's going to make a serious difference.

Reiterating Previous Post

The key to weight loss is diet, NOT exercise, as I have posted.

The Myth of Interval Training and EPOC

"...it would make sense that intervals, which are performed at a much higher intensity than continuous cardio (also known as steady-state cardio), would have a much greater EPOC effect."

"...too many people get bogged down with calorie counting or performing the “right” type of exercise, and end up sabotaging their own weight loss efforts."

Quite The Contrary

Counting calories is the key for losing weight.

The majority of individual are not willing to invest the time in counting calories. It amount to taking a trip, not getting a road map and just driving around lost and hoping you figure out how to get there.

They are clueless as to they type of exercise is the most efficient at optimizing caloric expenditure.

"Pitting one form of exercise against another just makes it more difficult for people to do the right thing,"

Lack of Knowledge and Motivation

...are the two main reason that "makes it more difficult for people to do that right thing", ensuring their failure.

1) They lack knowledge regarding diet and exercise.

2) Motivation isn't part of their DNA. The majority are not willing to do what it takes...

a) Only 12% of those who make a New Year's Resolution stick with it.

b) The majority of those who begin a New Year's Resolution ditch it by January 17th.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[deviant]

I don't know what you are trying to say/mean or if you know what you mean.

Kenny Croxdale

Have a nice day, Kenny Croxdale.

 

[krg]

Are people really that out of touch with their bodies? I get on the scale every morning - if I find my weight going up and I don't want it to, I eat less, or try to eat better, or both. And the converse is also true - if my weight is going down and I don't want it to, I will eat more, or better, or both.

-S-

Steve, with respect (and it is with enormous respect), when was the last time your BMI was over 30? or your waist to height ratio over 0.65?

If I asked you to achieve a BMI of 35-40 and maintain it - would you find it an easy task? For me and millions of others, it is effortless, literally - ie. it is the thing that happens without concious effort.

On the flipside, I am a pretty cheerful and optimistic person - and I can maintain this emotional state without too much maintenance on my part, I know many people who can't.

This is not to claim equivalence of obesity with depressive illness or generalised anxiety disorder, but just to point out that there is a broad variance in human behaviour in all dimensions and in many other dimensions we don't treat that variance as a moral defect.

 

[LukeV]

No-one any more suggests alcoholics are just lazy, ill-disciplined and can't be bothered counting standard drinks. I mean how easy is it not to drink too much? Just stop at two! Yet that attitude still exists towards the many, many more who habitually over-eat. We don't even call their relationship to food "addiction" even though it has all the qualities of addictions we immediately recognise as such. I know what it's like to suddenly "wake up" and find yourself 20kg overweight then to slowly and agonisingly get that weight down only to put it all back on again ... then start that all over. And in the process recognise the complex physical and emotional relationship many of us have with food and why calorie restriction is so often ineffective, in practice

 

[North Coast Miller]

When you look at the numbers of people in industrialized countries that are in ill health due to overeating it becomes apparent there has to be a number of reasons.

In many cases it starts at an early age and begins with poor food choices, compounded by low activity levels.

Our relationship with food has come to be defined by advertising campaigns. We no longer eat to fuel the machine, but simply eat to delight the tastebuds.

And perversely, the highest calorie foods (of low nutritional value) are now the cheapest, while nutrient dense lower calorie foods are frightfully expensive.

End of day though, the only way to get in healthy shape and stay there is to eat less, or eat more of better food and less of tasty garbage, and become more active. There are a bunch of strategies to approach this just as there is with substance abuse or any other destructive habitual behavior, but the nuts and bolts are the same - you have to change your relationship with the destructive behavior and see the truth of what is happening and why.

Many, many adults in this country (US) have no better idea of proper nutrition and exercise than my 11 yr old kids.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Mike Dolce, who is a S&C coach and a weight-cut coach as well for top MMA athletes such as Thiago Alves, Ronda Rousey, Johny Hendricks, Vitor Belfort or Michael Bisping makes them eat up to 6 times a day, but in small portions.

Apparently, he manages to make them cut weight by varying the amount of carbs / fat with a very specific timing around the training (pre / post workout).

Even if science does not necessarily backs it up, it seems his methods works. The interesting thing is that he does not drastically reduces the calorie amount.

He has excellent podcast which explain quite well the process.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Joe Fraser]

Keep it simple:

Get lots of protein: 200-250 grams per day. This will ensure a better ratio of weight loss from fat instead of muscle.

Get 30+ grams of fiber per day: this will ensure a good deal of what you eat is quality foods.

Fill your calories left what's left without going over: there may be an optimal ratio of carbs and fat for each individual but it's likely is individual less important than the 1st two points.

Make as few lifestyle changes as possible: don't go straight to a restrictive "diet" that you can not stick to long term. Make small changes/substitutions that you can make a habit.

Do it in phases: going under your maintenance calories long term usually lowers your metabolism. Rather than trying to lose weight for 2 years consecutively, go under your calories for 6 months, maintain for a few, then do some more under maintenance if needed to keep your metabolism in check.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Get lots of protein: 200-250 grams per day. This will ensure a better ratio of weight loss from fat instead of muscle.

250 Gram of Protein

Consuming more protein in a caloric deficit ensure muscle mass is preserved.

However, consuming this amount of protein is more than most individual need; even 200 gram a day is most likely more than someone need.

Get 30+ grams of fiber per day: this will ensure a good deal of what you eat is quality foods.

Fiber

High fiber foods ensure they are lower in carbohydrates/calories. However, research presented by Dr Paul Mason indicates high fiber isn't necessary; more moderate fiber consumption may be better.

...go under your calories for 6 months, maintain for a few, then do some more under maintenance if needed to keep your metabolism in check.

Why All Diets Stop Working

The body eventually learns and adapt; know as the General Adaptation Syndrome.

How To Get It Back To Working

Once adaptation occurs with diet or training, the key is to change something.

Intermittent energy restriction improves weight loss efficiency in obese men: the MATADOR study. - PubMed - NCBI

Research in this article shows that it takes around 2 weeks for the body to adapt to a calorie restricted diet. Once adaptation occurs weight loss stops.

The research found that the key to getting your weight loss back on track is to...

Calorie Rotation

1) Decrease you calorie intake for two weeks below maintenance

Then...

2) Increase you calorie intake for two weeks, back to maintenance.

Rotating calories like this enables you manipulate your metabolism so that you maintain weight/loss.

This method demonstrated that greater fat loss was obtain while preserving greater muscle mass.

Keep it simple

Intermittent is the simplest method for creating a calorie deficit for weight loss and varying calorie intake.

Nothing to count and nothing to fix.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Steve Freides]

Steve, with respect (and it is with enormous respect), when was the last time your BMI was over 30? or your waist to height ratio over 0.65?

If I asked you to achieve a BMI of 35-40 and maintain it - would you find it an easy task? For me and millions of others, it is effortless, literally - ie. it is the thing that happens without concious effort.

On the flipside, I am a pretty cheerful and optimistic person - and I can maintain this emotional state without too much maintenance on my part, I know many people who can't.

This is not to claim equivalence of obesity with depressive illness or generalised anxiety disorder, but just to point out that there is a broad variance in human behaviour in all dimensions and in many other dimensions we don't treat that variance as a moral defect.

I appreciate your point of view, @krg, and I also mean no disrespect by my comments. Being overweight isn't a "moral defect."

The other side of this, for me, is that strength training has truly given me a new sense of myself as concerns my own strength of will. Perhaps that sense is amplified because I began strength training only when I realized it was key to my continued recovery from a very severe injury. But it remains a pivotal thing in my life - through my strength of will, I went from not being able to walk to being pretty strong because I made a decision to do just that, and to exercise my willpower to keep my actions directed towards achieving my goal.

I realized the power of strength in my own life, and I believe that kind of realization can help anyone make progress towards their goals, including maintaining a good body composition.

I hope my comments above make more clear what I wanted to say in the first place - I do think one can get on the scale every day and, if need be, be hungry and lose weight if that's how it works. It will happen if losing weight is important and if food and exercise and lifestyle choices are made with a goal in mind - I believe this is possible for everyone.

Thank you for your thoughtful remarks.

-S-

 

[krg]

I realized the power of strength in my own life, and I believe that kind of realization can help anyone make progress towards their goals

I completely agree.