Barbell Low bar squat form check

[v1dem]

Hi guys,

Getting slowly into strength training following a low back injury a few years back.
Can you check and comment on my low bar squat form?
Two things I am mostly concerned with and working to improve:
1) Squat depth - previous injuries and mobility limitations prevent me from going deep but I am trying to at least break parallel.
2) Knees shooting back - when the weight gets heavy I have a tendency to do the so called "good morning" squat.

I am attaching links to 2 videos:
1) my last set of 5 reps @125kg from my medium heavy day -
2) my top set of 5 reps @140kg from my heavy day -

Would appreciate your advice/recommendations.

Many thanks!

 

[Steve Freides]

It's tough to actually see your bar placement in these videos, but you mention low bar - but you're wearing Oly lifting shoes, not something many, me included, would recommend for a low bar squat. Your depth on the heavier set, to me, looked like some reps made depth while others didn't.

-S-

 

[ShawnM]

I have to agree with @Steve Freides regarding your depth and shoe preference. When I used to powerlift my stance for low bar had my feet quite wide, at least a narrow sumo stance and the bar sat lower on my traps/upper back. The wide stance and the lower bar combined with a flat sole shoe has your first movement to be more pushing the hips back and sitting down. You may want to lower the weight and start with box squats. Kenney Croxdale is the best person to answer this question, IMO.

 

[Anna C]

I use lifting shoes for low bar.

I think your squat is good! Back angle looks good on your ascent. I think you are trying to stay too upright on the descent. Try leaning over a little more, and sooner, on your descent, stay tight, and you'll be coming up the same way, which will be steadier and less weight shift.

 

[v1dem]

It's tough to actually see your bar placement in these videos, but you mention low bar - but you're wearing Oly lifting shoes, not something many, me included, would recommend for a low bar squat. Your depth on the heavier set, to me, looked like some reps made depth while others didn't.

-S-

Yes, I am doing low bar squat. I have tried both with flat and Oly shoes and the latter feels better for me because it helps with my ankle mobility. Also with flat shoes I tend to "lift with my back" too much. I guess it's a matter of personal preference and what you are used to.
I agree for the depth remark on the heavier set - the first 2-3 reps are borderline maybe even a tad higher while the last couple of reps seem to hit proper depth. Strangely but I seem to loosen up during the set and my last reps are always better than my first.

 

[v1dem]

I use lifting shoes for low bar.

I think your squat is good! Back angle looks good on your ascent. I think you are trying to stay too upright on the descent. Try leaning over a little more, and sooner, on your descent, stay tight, and you'll be coming up the same way, which will be steadier and less weight shift.

Thanks Anna! That's very useful advice. Looking back at the videos, indeed, my back is much more upright on the descent compared to the ascent. I am actually trying to stay upright to avoid "lifting with my back" but maybe this is a part of the issue. Will definitely try to keep a more horizontal back angle throughout the squat.

 

[Steve Freides]

I guess it's a matter of personal preference and what you are used to.

I respectfully disagree. One ought to have sufficient ankle mobility to lowbar squat to depth without resorting to a raised heel. You might also consider training the front squat and/or the high bar back squat to work on your ankle mobility.

-S-

 

[Antti]

I respectfully disagree. One ought to have sufficient ankle mobility to lowbar squat to depth without resorting to a raised heel. You might also consider training the front squat and/or the high bar back squat to work on your ankle mobility.

-S-

I disagree. All professional weightlifters use weightlifting shoes, no matter their ankle mobility. And they have great mobility and all the time and coaching to improve it. I don't see why a powerlifter should act any different if he prefers the heel.

Regarding the recorded lifts, I agree that the back angle would better be constant. And wouldn't really be worried about having a more posterior oriented squat. Depends on your goal, of course.

 

[Steve Freides]

All professional weightlifters use weightlifting shoes, no matter their ankle mobility. And they have great mobility and all the time and coaching to improve it. I don't see why a powerlifter should act any different if he prefers the heel.

The heel shifts the weight forward, as does placing the bar higher or in the front. The lower heel and the lower bar placement both facilitate greater posterior chain involvement which allows more weight to be used. A powerlifter doesn't need the kind of ankle mobility a weightlifter does. A powerlifter without sufficient mobility to squat to below parallel in flat shoes has, in my mind, a mobility issue that should be addressed and that issue is most likely not in the ankles.

I don't mean to say that one can't low bar back squat with a raised heel, but I do mean to say that using a shoe with a raised heel in a low bar back squat to address a perceived mobility problem is a set of circumstances that requires further investigation, and in this context, I think the raised heel addresses a symptom but not the problem.

-S-

 

[Hardartery]

You look fine, mostly. It's nearly impossible to diagnose or adjust stance width from the side view, at least with only that. Your bar path is dead on, you are moving all over the place under it but it stays dead true over the ankles and that is good. If you were to move from a healed shoe to a flat one, you would use more forward lean to achieve the same bar path and given your leg proportions that may not be good for you with your current stance. The knee thing is commonly related to how you set/angle your feet combined with width. If you are not planning on squatting in equipment or for serious competition it is totally unnecessary to use a wide stance, so don't do that just because all of the PLers do it. Do some pause squats and play with your foot angles and you will likely firm up coming out of the hole. Get some heavy Hamstring/glute work in and you'll stop doing the "Goodmorning" thing. Your body is shifting the load to the quads by doing that, because that s where you individually are stronger, and the raised heel tends to play towards that strength as opposed to the glutes and hammies.

 

[v1dem]

The heel shifts the weight forward, as does placing the bar higher or in the front. The lower heel and the lower bar placement both facilitate greater posterior chain involvement which allows more weight to be used. A powerlifter doesn't need the kind of ankle mobility a weightlifter does. A powerlifter without sufficient mobility to squat to below parallel in flat shoes has, in my mind, a mobility issue that should be addressed and that issue is most likely not in the ankles.

I don't mean to say that one can't low bar back squat with a raised heel, but I do mean to say that using a shoe with a raised heel in a low bar back squat to address a perceived mobility problem is a set of circumstances that requires further investigation, and in this context, I think the raised heel addresses a symptom but not the problem.

-S-

Steve, I am not a competitive powerlifter, not even a powerlifter for that matter. I train for my own pleasure (mix of strength and conditioning) and try to get as good and strong as I can while trying to stay healthy as I've had my fair share of injures and I am not that young anymore (currently in my mid 30s). I feel more comfortable in a raised heel shoe, therefore this is what I am using. I do have mobility issues which I have been addressing for years now but still have some limitations (probably related to my anthropometry).
Therefore I wanted to hear some feedback, I know my form is not perfect (and probably never will be) but if my depth is ok and my way of squatting does not look dangerous or likely to cause potential injury, then that's good enough for me.
Just for info I am doing front squats fairly regularly as part of my conditioning and also am switching between high bar and low bar squat cycles (I have been high-bar squatting for about 6 months before switching to low-bar).

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

As weightlifting shoes go, the ones the OP's wearing for squats have only a modest heel raise.

Not sure if that makes a difference but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

 

[Antti]

The heel shifts the weight forward, as does placing the bar higher or in the front. The lower heel and the lower bar placement both facilitate greater posterior chain involvement which allows more weight to be used. A powerlifter doesn't need the kind of ankle mobility a weightlifter does. A powerlifter without sufficient mobility to squat to below parallel in flat shoes has, in my mind, a mobility issue that should be addressed and that issue is most likely not in the ankles.

I don't mean to say that one can't low bar back squat with a raised heel, but I do mean to say that using a shoe with a raised heel in a low bar back squat to address a perceived mobility problem is a set of circumstances that requires further investigation, and in this context, I think the raised heel addresses a symptom but not the problem.

-S-

I understand your point.

I could argue that the weightlifter could also just improve his mobility, with typically better resources for it. Yes, he likely still demands more or benefits from supernatural mobility, but still, especially if you're not competitive.

I can also agree that if a person can't squat well due to ankle immobility, I agree that it's something worth looking into.

However, in the end it's a question of preference. And I see the low bar - high bar, Olympic Vs old style powerlifting, as a continuum instead of two distinct, opposite choices. You can pick and match to your heart's content. You can go quad heavy, posterior heavy, you can try to even then out.

Last, from the IPF classic/raw meets I've been to, up to open nationals, I see plenty and plenty of all styles of powerlifters use heels.

 

[watchnerd]

I disagree. All professional weightlifters use weightlifting shoes, no matter their ankle mobility. And they have great mobility and all the time and coaching to improve it. I don't see why a powerlifter should act any different if he prefers the heel.

Regarding the recorded lifts, I agree that the back angle would better be constant. And wouldn't really be worried about having a more posterior oriented squat. Depends on your goal, of course.

But @Steve Freides was talking about low bar squats.

Weightlifters typically don't do low bar.

Or at least I don't and nobody I know does, nor do I see it regularly programmed, either, because the low bar position doesn't translate well to the clean and snatch.

I have no insights into what shoes powerlifters prefer, but citing weightlifting shoe preferences as something for low bar squats seems kind of irrelevant, given that weightlifters and powerlifters train squats differently and for different purposes.

 

[watchnerd]

. And I see the low bar - high bar, Olympic Vs old style powerlifting, as a continuum instead of two distinct, opposite choices. You can pick and match to your heart's content. You can go quad heavy, posterior heavy, you can try to even then out.

Depends on your goal.

If you're trying to squat for just general health -- sure, do whatever.

But if you're trying to be a competitive weightlifter or powerlifter, you should train for what makes you more competitive at your sport.

The torso angle of a low bar squat isn't conducive to catching cleans or snatches, and going high bar ATG isn't going to let you lift as much weight as going to just parallel in powerlifting.

Same logic applies to clean pulls vs deadlifts.

 

[watchnerd]

The heel shifts the weight forward, as does placing the bar higher or in the front. The lower heel and the lower bar placement both facilitate greater posterior chain involvement which allows more weight to be used. A powerlifter doesn't need the kind of ankle mobility a weightlifter does. A powerlifter without sufficient mobility to squat to below parallel in flat shoes has, in my mind, a mobility issue that should be addressed and that issue is most likely not in the ankles.

Even if mobility isn't an issue, I can't see why a powerlifter would want to lift in raised heels, as that's going to tend to make the squat more "high bar-ish", even with a low bar position, the high heels encouraging a squat that is more "down" than "back", which usually means less hips, which usually means less weight lifted.

Unless they have some kind of unusual hip anatomy.

If I high bar squat in flat shoes instead of my weightlifting shoes, my movement automatically gets a bit less upright, a bit less quad and a bit more hips, just as a matter of keeping the bar balanced over mid foot.

 

[Antti]

But @Steve Freides was talking about low bar squats.

Weightlifters typically do low bar.

Or at least I don't and nobody I know does, nor do I see it regularly programmed, either, because the low bar position doesn't translate well to the clean and snatch.

I have no insights into what shoes powerlifters prefer, but citing weightlifting shoe preferences as something for low bar squats seems kind of irrelevant, given that weightlifters and powerlifters train squats differently and for different purposes.

Depends on your goal.

If you're trying to squat for just general health -- sure, do whatever.

But if you're trying to be a competitive weightlifter or powerlifter, you should train for what makes you more competitive at your sport.

The torso angle of a low bar squat isn't conducive to catching cleans or snatches, and going high bar ATG isn't going to let you lift as much weight as going to just parallel in powerlifting.

Same logic applies to clean pulls vs deadlifts.

I'm not sure if your wording was 100% correct in the first message. Or then the fault is mine.

I am aware of the differences between the squat demands. Basically, weightlifters need all the depth they can have. Powerlifters only need to abide by the rules of their federation, typically the top of the knee above the crease of the hips. Indeed, note, that even if a powerlifter can go deeper, whether due to mobility or shoe choice or stance width, he does not need to do it.

How big a difference do you think the heel lift makes in a powerlifting squat and how exactly?

 

[watchnerd]

As weightlifting shoes go, the ones the OP's wearing for squats have only a modest heel raise.

Not sure if that makes a difference but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

Uh oh.

Are you one of those Romaleo 4 lovers that pick on my OG Adipowers?

 

[watchnerd]

How big a difference do you think the heel lift makes in a powerlifting squat and how exactly?

Well, I don't low bar squat nor am I a powerlifter.

But...

If I do high bar squats with and without my weightlifting shoes, my flat shoe high bar becomes less upright, less "quaddy" and more "hippy", just naturally, due to maintaining midfoot barbell balance.

More hip-dominant is generally regarded as a position that allows more weight to be lifted.

So I don't see why a powerlifter would want to become less hip dominant by wearing lifted shoes, given their sport only needs to go to parallel and carryover with the hip dominant DL.

 

[Antti]

Well, I don't low bar squat nor am I a powerlifter.

But...

If I do high bar squats with and without my weightlifting shoes, my flat shoe high bar becomes less upright, less "quaddy" and more "hippy", just naturally, due to maintaining midfoot barbell balance.

More hip-dominant is generally regarded as a position that allows more weight to be lifted.

So I don't see why a powerlifter would want to become less hip dominant by wearing lifted shoes, given their sport only needs to go to parallel and carryover with the hip dominant DL.

It could be just preference. Preference can have a big impact. I'd argue way more than that of the speculative heel lift.

I would also argue that there is always a case of individual differences that decree exactly how hip Vs quad dominant one has to go. Like a continuum instead of only the opposite ends.

I'd say that the modern classic/raw powerlifting squat isn't that hip dominant. I'm not saying you are, but sometimes it seems, that some people are stuck in the days of multiply squat suits which of course demand a wholly different way of squats. Still, you could always argue that the less hip dominant form isn't optimal, but personally, i would hesitate to say that to a champion or a record holder.

In a way this is a discussion comparable to the bench press; its bar path and grip width. The wider the grip and the more vertical the bar path, the less work the lifter has to do. The best choice for everyone, right?