Barbell Low bar squat form check

[watchnerd]

I'd say that the modern classic/raw powerlifting squat isn't that hip dominant. I'm not saying you are

This is pretty much physics and moment arms.

Most lifters will lift 5-10% more in low bar than high bar.

Greg Nuckols has a good explanation here:

How to Squat: The Definitive Guide

Do you want to learn how to squat, or learn how to squat better? If so, this guide will teach you everything you need to know.

www.strongerbyscience.com

 

[watchnerd]

In a way this is a discussion comparable to the bench press; its bar path and grip width. The wider the grip and the more vertical the bar path, the less work the lifter has to do. The best choice for everyone, right?

You lost me.

In a squat, the barbell has to maintain mid-foot balance to avoid toppling over, regardless of whether you're doing low bar, high bar, or front squat.

 

[Antti]

Now I'm really confused.

I'm a weightlifter, not a powerlifter.

I don't squat low bar.

I squat high bar. If I take my weightlifting shoes off and squat barefoot or in flat shoes, my high bar becomes less quad dominant.

I meant that some people have a very specific view of a powerlifting squat that stems from the days when a powerlifter had no chance but to wear a squat suit, which forces one to squat in a certain manner; very wide and very hip dominant. Some are stuck in that concept of a powerlifting squat. I'm not saying that you are, but it seems that some are.

You lost me.

In a squat, the barbell has to maintain mid-foot balance to avoid toppling over, regardless of whether you're doing low bar, high bar, or front squat.

It's obvious that great lifters have varying ways of doing the bench press, even if from a purely mechanical view, it can be seen as not optimal by some. The same stands for the squat.

 

[watchnerd]

I meant that some people have a very specific view of a powerlifting squat that stems from the days when a powerlifter had no chance but to wear a squat suit, which forces one to squat in a certain manner; very wide and very hip dominant. Some are stuck in that concept of a powerlifting squat. I'm not saying that you are, but it seems that some are.

I misunderstood your remark.

I edited my response.

See above:

It's physics why low bar is stronger by 5-10% for most lifters.

 

[watchnerd]

It's obvious that great lifters have varying ways of doing the bench press, even if from a purely mechanical view, it can be seen as not optimal by some. The same stands for the squat.

No, it's not the same.

You can't topple over on a bench press.

Really, you should just leave bench out of it -- it's a completely different lift, with different physics.

 

[Antti]

No, it's not the same.

You can't topple over on a bench press.

Really, you should just leave bench out of it -- it's a completely different lift, with different physics.

I am not debating whether the physics are the same.

I am pointing out that there's a similar debate with the bench press, the form of the lift. Some see that there's a very specific way to lift that is optimal. Yet, records and championships are won with different forms.

This is pretty much physics and moment arms.

Most lifters will lift 5-10% more in low bar than high bar.

Greg Nuckols has a good explanation here:

How to Squat: The Definitive Guide

Do you want to learn how to squat, or learn how to squat better? If so, this guide will teach you everything you need to know.

www.strongerbyscience.com

The moment arm does make a difference, yes.

Great that you pointed out that article. I'll quote from it and we'll thus get to the original question of heels:

"Whether you squat with a raised heel or not is a matter of personal preference. Squatting with a raised heel versus a flat sole doesn’t fundamentally change the movement in a general sense"

 

[watchnerd]

"Whether you squat with a raised heel or not is a matter of personal preference. Squatting with a raised heel versus a flat sole doesn’t fundamentally change the movement in a general sense"

From the pelvis down, yes.

But....

See what the article says about thoracic strength, torso angle, and low bar vs high bar.

"I’ve thought for a while now that thoracic erector strength may be the primary (but not the only) reason most people squat more low bar than high bar. "

If an elevated shoe moves the lifter towards a more upright torso stance, most lifters will be able to lift less.

I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't naturally squat in a more upright posture in elevated heels.

And, in fact, help in staying upright is why weightlifters use them in the first place.

So flat heel vs elevated heel may be a matter of preference, but if an elevated heel encourages a squatter to use a more upright torso...and helping to maintain an upright torso is without a doubt the raison d'etre of elevated heel shoes...most people will squat less with an upright torso than a less upright torso.

If the OP doesn't care about that max-hacking squat style and torso angle?

Sure, just wear whatever feels comfy to you.

Does the OP care about any of this?

Probably not, if he's not trying to compete.

 

[Antti]

From the pelvis down, yes.

But....

See what the article says about thoracic strength, torso angle, and low bar vs high bar.



If an elevated shoe moves the lifter towards a more upright torso stance, most lifters will be able to lift less.

I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't naturally squat in a more upright posture in elevated heels.

And, in fact, help in staying upright is why weightlifters use them in the first place.

So flat heel vs elevated heel may be a matter of preference, but if an elevated heel encourages a squatter to use a more upright torso...and helping to maintain an upright torso is without a doubt the raison d'etre of elevated heel shoes...most people will squat less with an upright torso than a less upright torso.

If the OP doesn't care about that max-hacking squat style and torso angle?

Sure, just wear whatever feels comfy to you.

From the pelvis down, yes.

But....

See what the article says about thoracic strength, torso angle, and low bar vs high bar.



If an elevated shoe moves the lifter towards a more upright torso stance, most lifters will be able to lift less.

I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't naturally squat in a more upright posture in elevated heels.

And, in fact, help in staying upright is why weightlifters use them in the first place.

So flat heel vs elevated heel may be a matter of preference, but if an elevated heel encourages a squatter to use a more upright torso...and helping to maintain an upright torso is the main purpose of elevated heel shoes...most people will squat less with an upright torso than a less upright torso.

Does the OP care about any of this?

Probably not, if he's not trying to compete.

Did we understand the article differently? I thought Nuckols was pretty clear that the heel doesn't matter as a whole. I agree.

He also separately mentioned getting a weightlifting shoe if lacking ankle mobility.

 

[watchnerd]

Did we understand the article differently? I thought Nuckols was pretty clear that the heel doesn't matter as a whole. I agree.

He also separately mentioned getting a weightlifting shoe if lacking ankle mobility.

I think you're conflating a statement on preference with max lifting.

He clearly says most people lift more low bar.

And he says torso angle / thoracic strength is probably the main reason.

If you connect the dots...

Upright torso = lift less

Elevated heel = more upright torso = lift less

I guess if you have really poor ankle mobility, maybe you need lifted heels even to do low bar.

But that gets back to @Steve Freides 's point.

 

[Antti]

I think you're conflating a statement on preference with max lifting.

He clearly says most people lift more low bar.

And he says torso angle / thoracic strength is probably the main reason.

If you connect the dots...

Upright torso = lift less

Elevated heel = more upright torso = lift less

I guess if you have really poor ankle mobility, maybe you need lifted heels even to do low bar.

But that gets back to @Steve Freides 's point.

I do not think that the heel matters so much regarding the torso angle or bar position and thus the moment arm. In my understanding, Nuckols agrees with me. We also share a similar view regarding the ankle mobility. It's worth fixing it, but no problems using a heel to help with it.

 

[watchnerd]

I do not think that the heel matters so much regarding the torso angle or bar position and thus the moment arm. In my understanding, Nuckols agrees with me. We also share a similar view regarding the ankle mobility. It's worth fixing it, but no problems using a heel to help with it.

Then we are in violent disagreement as to the whole purpose of elevated heels.

The reason Olympic lifters wear elevated heels is to improve ankle mobility to make it easier to keep an upright torso deep in the hole of a clean or snatch.

Staying upright when ATG is the core reason Olympic weightlifters wear elevated heels.

 

[Antti]

Then we are in violent disagreement as to the whole purpose of elevated heels.

The reason Olympic lifters wear elevated heels is to improve ankle mobility to make it easier to keep an upright torso deep in the hole of a clean or snatch.

Staying upright when ATG is the core reason Olympic weightlifters wear elevated heels.

I would agree that weightlifters use high heels for maximal depth due to greater ankle mobility. Staying upright is a prerequisite for a successful Olympic lift.

That is not the only reason for high heels. Some may just like them. It's not necessary to go to full depth, like I mentioned before, regardless of the shoes used or not. I've even heard of some women using high heels outside the weight room. Go figure!

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

Uh oh.

Are you one of those Romaleo 4 lovers that pick on my OG Adipowers?

Bruh, I love my OG Adipowers.

 

[Anna C]

Lifting shoes provide three things:

• A raised heel (discussed plenty above)
• A non-compressible sole
• Lateral stability

I prefer them for all barbell squats. But I can squat without them, too. Not a big deal either way. And I don't ever wear lifting shoes for kettlebells... Unless I'm trying to SOTS press.

I agree with the Starting Strength / Mark Rippetoe perspective on shoes for barbell lifting in this article.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

Not a big deal either way.

Yup.

I bought my lifting shoes before I started Oly lifting because of what Mark Rippetoe said in Starting Strength. I've always been a high-bar squatter though.

I feel like it might be worth dividing this thread to continue the discussion on suitable footwear for squats, provided we've not exhausted the topic already.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

for the depth remark on the heavier set - the first 2-3 reps are borderline maybe even a tad higher while the last couple of reps seem to hit proper depth. Strangely but I seem to loosen up during the set and my last reps are always better than my first.

Fishing For Depth

Yea, you appear to do better as you begin to "Loosen Up."

Squatting to depth is a fishing expedition, which isn't the case with a Bench Press or Deadlift.

Squat: Part 1 Fold-Ability


Tom Purvis, Physical Therapist, provide a great "Stick Figure" presentation on...

Anthropometry

One of the determine factors is movement, Squats in this instance, is your body dimensions,

Squat Part 2: Fold-Abiity


Purvis' breakdown a Squatting Demonstration of how the Width Stance alters technique.

Purvis also touches how placing a wedge under the heel, as with an Olympic Lifting Shoe, may help.

As per Purvis, not a great deal of heel increase is needed.

I don't see why a powerlifter would want to become less hip dominant by wearing lifted shoes,

The lower heel and the lower bar placement both facilitate greater posterior chain involvement which allows more weight to be used.

The Flat (No Heel) Shoe

What is interesting is that the best Squatters in Powerlifting, usually Squat in a Flat (No Heel) Shoe; allowing a lifter to be push back a little farther; allowing a greater hip dominate movement with more of the posterior chain.

The Largest Srongest Muscle of The Body

The largest and strongest muscles of he body are on the backside (posteior chain); namely the Glutes and Lats.

As the saying goes, "The bigger the cushion (Glutes), the better the Pushin".

Individual Difference

...as per Antti.

If it feels better with a little heel, as per Pruvis, then Squat in a shoe with a little heel.

How Femur Length Affects Squat Mechanics - Bret Contreras

Contreras (like Purvis) exmaines two different lifter, who are the same height, but build differently.

Their difference in dimensions equate to different Squat Techniques.



Meet Maren and Brett, the two latest Glute Squad members. They are the same height, but their torso and femur proportions differ markedly. Maren has a longer torso and shorter femurs, whereas Brett has a short torso and long femurs. See how much higher Brett’s hip joint center is compared to Maren’s?

Maren can stay very upright, prefers high bar squats, and goes very deep.



Brett necessarily leans forward considerably, prefers low bar squats, and goes just below parallel.



On social media, the majority of people would comment on how nice Maren’s squat is and praise her for her squatting prowess, and the same people would ridicule Brett and chastise her for not understanding that she needs to stay upright. A greater relative femur length leads to greater forward lean.

 

[Steve Freides]

An interesting discussion. I'll add a data point - after posting in this thread yesterday, I posted on a group for USPA powerlifters, an informal "poll" - I gave four choices: high bar + heels, high bar + flat, low bar + heels, low bar + flat. And give that it was a powerlifting group, I expected most of the people to choose what I've chosen, low bar + flat, but the responses surprised me. A relatively small number of people squatted high bar, but among the low bar squatters, I'd say the responses were about 60% for flat shoes and 40% for heels, with a number of the heels people citing mobility issues as their reason for using heeled shoes.

I don't have anything to add to the technical discussion - I think I made my point, and I don't really finding @watchnerd, who agrees with me, and @Antti, who doesn't, actually disagreeing with each other in their numerous posts. I think the physics is in arguable, but in support of what @Antti said, I will relate a story from my recent experience at the USPA Nationals.

One of the people at the scorer's table, obviously a USPA official, saw me and called me over between the BP and the DL, and asked me if I was going to lift without a belt for my deadlifts. He asked this because he'd seen me as the only belt-less lifter in the whole meet, and he was a combination of concerned and curious. I told him I wasn't going to use a belt, and that was the end of the initial conversation, but I later went back over to him and asked him why he'd called me over and asked me if I was going to use a belt for my DL. He said he'd met a few people during his time who felt like they couldn't figure out how to take advantage of a belt and therefore chose not to use one, and I think he was curious to know if I was one of those. I said I wasn't - I recall using the words, "I want to be the belt" and then explaining to him briefly about my back injury being my reason for having gotten into strength training, and that maximum poundage wasn't my main or my only concern. He seemed to understand and that was the end of that.

To me, there is a real difference - I'd go so far as to call it a profound difference - between belt or not, and heels for low-bar squatting or not. My choice not to use a belt is for reasons that make very good sense to me, and my personal opinion is that, while it's easy enough to say it's personal preference to low-bar squat in heels, I think it's a poor solution to the issue of ankle mobility. I happen to have pretty poor dorsiflexion, but I call still squat rock-bottom in bare feet because I have mobility where one, IMO, _should_ have mobility to squat well, which is in the hips and hamstrings. But at the end of the day, that's just my opinion, but I still theorize that most people who squat low-bar and with heels have mobility issues that would be better addressed in ways other than squatting in shoes with heels.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

In a way this is a discussion comparable to the bench press; its bar path and grip width. The wider the grip and the more vertical the bar path, the less work the lifter has to do.

The Bench Press Bar Path

Reseach by Dr. Tom McLaughlin (PhD Bio-Mechanics, former Powerlifter) demonstrated with a Wide Grip Bench Press, the bar Trajectory is...


Source: Bench Press Bar Path: How to Fix Your Bar Path for a Bigger Bench

McLaughlin's research was in Benching in a T-Shirt, prior to the Bench Press Shirts.

The Slight Differences in Bar Paths for Bridges and Kazmaier

The reason for the slight variance in the Bench Press Bar Paths was that both lifter took the Maximum Bar Grip Width of 81 cm, as per the Powerlifting Rules

Bill Kazmaier's Height: 6 ft 3 in, 191 cm

Mike Bridges' Height; Around 5 ft 5 in, 1.65 cm

The Arm Spand/Wing Spand for Kazmaier was much greater than Bridge.

The Bar Paths were similar. However, McLaughlin noted that the difference was due to their Arm Spands in relationship to the same 81 cm Bar Grip Placement.

Kazmaier had to essentially take a narrower grip width vs Bridges being able to take a wider grip width based on his Arm Spand.

Pushing The Bar Straight Up

This is conjecture. There is no data demonstration that the Bench Press is driven up in a straight line.

The body does not move in a straight line.

Ascending A Mountain Example

Pushing a Bench Press straight up, amount to ascending a mountain by climbing straight up compared to transversing it.

Climbing Straigth Up a Moutain is the shortest distance compared to Transversing it

Climbing Straight Up a Moutain is also much harder than Transversing it.

That applies to the Bench Press, as well.

Leg Press Example

The True Weight of what an individual can Leg Press is not what is Loaded.

Most Leg Press' have a 45 degree angle ascension.

Reseach shows that the Load of a 45 Degree Leg Press is acutally around 70% of the weight of what is being used in the Leg Press.

That mean if an individual is performing a Leg Press with 500 lbs, they are actually only performing it with 350 lbs.

This brings us back to the Bench Press Bar Path. Altering the Bar Path is someone similar to Transversing in certain spots where it is harder.

Mike Bridges Increased Bench Press Without Getting Stronger

McLaughlin's Bench Press research on Brides occured over a number of years.

One of the interesting things that demonstrates Transversing it was McLauglin's research on Bridges. He found that Bridges increased his Bench Press by slighly modifying his Bar Path rather than increasing his strength.

Metaphorcally speaking, Bridges found an easer Transversing Path up the mountain; to locking out the Bench Press.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

He said he'd met a few people during his time who felt like they couldn't figure out how to take advantage of a belt and therefore chose not to use one,

Deadlifting With A Belt

I am a proponet the Deadlift with a Belt.

The primary benefit is that it increases Intra-Abdominal Pressure; which stabilizes the back during a Deadlift; which provide some assistance for the lower back; Bracing.

Early Powerlifter

Early Powerlifter used Olympic Lifting Belts, wide in the back and only around 2 inches in the front buckle area. There were not Powerlifting Belts.

One or the interesting things they did back then was to turn their Belt around backward. The wide part of the Belt in the abominal area and then 2 inch buckle in the back.

What we now know is that in doing so, they were able to increase Intra-Abominal Pressure by having a wider part of the belt to push into; which assisted the back.

That is why Powerlifting Belt are now the same width, in the front and back.

With that in said, a good article that addressed some issue with a Belt that is wide in the front is...

The Belt and the Deadlift

Chances are you're using the wrong belt when you deadlift. Worse yet, you may not even know why or how to use it.

www.t-nation.com

HERE’S WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW…​

1. A 4-inch-wide belt is too wide to permit a correct lumbar position at the start of a deadlift. And if you can’t get set correctly, you can’t pull correctly.
2. The lifting belt isn’t a passive device that works all by itself. One of the ways the belt works is by allowing you to produce a harder muscular contraction against it than you can without it.
3. The combination of the harder isometric trunk muscle contraction made possible by the belt, and the fact that the heavier weight you’re lifting provides more training stimulus than the lighter weight you’d be lifting otherwise, means that using the belt allows you to get stronger.
4. The correct use of the belt involves learning how tight it needs to be to work. Too tight, and you’re stretched up too far to make an effective isometric contraction. Too loose, and there’s nothing to push against.
5. Stop thinking of your squat belt as “The Belt” and start thinking of the deadlift as different movement that probably needs a different belt, a thick one but only 2-3 inches wide.

With that in mind, if Deadlifting without a Belt works, great.

 

[Antti]

The Bench Press Bar Path

Reseach by Dr. Tom McLaughlin (PhD Bio-Mechanics, former Powerlifter) demonstrated with a Wide Grip Bench Press, the bar Trajectory is...

View attachment 14293
Source: Bench Press Bar Path: How to Fix Your Bar Path for a Bigger Bench

McLaughlin's research was in Benching in a T-Shirt, prior to the Bench Press Shirts.

The Slight Differences in Bar Paths for Bridges and Kazmaier

The reason for the slight variance in the Bench Press Bar Paths was that both lifter took the Maximum Bar Grip Width of 81 cm, as per the Powerlifting Rules

Bill Kazmaier's Height: 6 ft 3 in, 191 cm

Mike Bridges' Height; Around 5 ft 5 in, 1.65 cm

The Arm Spand/Wing Spand for Kazmaier was much greater than Bridge.

The Bar Paths were similar. However, McLaughlin noted that the difference was due to their Arm Spands in relationship to the sam 81 cm Bar Grip Placement.

Pushing The Bar Straight Up

This is conjecture. There is no data demonstration that the Bench Press is driven up in a straight line.

The body does not move in a straight line.

Ascending A Mountain Example

Pushing a Bench Press straight up, amount to ascending a mountain by climbing straight up compared to transversing it.

Climbing Straigth Up a Moutain is the shortest distance compared to Transversing it

Climbing Straight Up a Moutain is also much harder than Transversing it.

That applies to the Bench Press, as well.

Leg Press Example

The True Weight of what an individual can Leg Press is not what is Loaded.

Most Leg Press' have a 45 degree angle ascension.

Reseach shows that the Load of a 45 Degree Leg Press is acutally around 70% of the weight of what is being used in the Leg Press. ;

That mean if an individual is performing a Leg Press with 500 lbs, they are actually only performing it with 350 lbs.

This brings us back to the Bench Press Bar Path. Altering the Bar Path is someone similar to Transversing in certain spots where it is harder.

Mike Bridges Increased Bench Press Without Getting Stronger

McLaughlin's Bench Press research on Brides occured over a number of years.

One of the interesting things that demonstrates Transversing it was McLauglin's research on Bridges. He found that Bridges increased his Bench Press by slighly modifying his Bar Path rather than increasing his strength.

Metaphorcally speaking, Bridges found an easer Transversing Path up the mountain; to locking out the Bench Press.

Regarding the leg press angle, it's simple. I'm not sure I wouldn't just call it mathematics instead of research. Just calculate sin (X) * load where X is the angle of the machine. Works for everything.

The bench press doesn't work like the leg press machine does.

If you're fond of looking at different bar path graphs, grab a copy of the Sheiko powerlifting book. It appears the Russians have a sophisticated camera system and software for recording bar path as well as the movement of the lifter. Sheiko identifies nine different bar path examples for the bench press, from which he sees three examples as the generally most successful ones.

None of the bar paths are like that on a Smith machine. I don't think anyone expects that.