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Bodyweight Lumbar flexion and loaded pistols

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rickyw

Level 7 Valued Member
I have never seen somebody do a pistol squat without breaking their neutral lumbar lordotic curve and flexing the lumbar spine. How then can we justify loading the pistol without risking the health of the low back? Is it because of the placement of the weight?
 
@rickyw,

1. Lumbar rounding, when the body is vertical or nearly so, is much less of a problem than it is in, e.g., the bottom position of a low-bar, powerlifting type squat or at the start of a conventional deadlift. It is primarily shear forces we're concerned with, and those depend on both load and angle. If the angle isn't there, then the shear forces will be greatly reduced.

2. Follow StrongFirst principles. By keeping intra-abdominal pressure high, maintaining high tension throughout the rest of the body, and endeavoring to spread the load across all the vertebral joints, you lessen the risk of problems. It's when one spot bears most of the load that problems are more likely to occur.

3. Lightly-loaded pistols require less lumbar rounding. Use a weight that's sufficient to provide a counterbalance to the tendency to fall over backwards. Being able to maneuver the weight away from the body improves the leverage and lessens the need to round the back, so while going heavier can help, it's only helpful if the weight is still light enough to hold away from the torso.

-S-
 
3. Lightly-loaded pistols require less lumbar rounding. Use a weight that's sufficient to provide a counterbalance to the tendency to fall over backwards. Being able to maneuver the weight away from the body improves the leverage and lessens the need to round the back, so while going heavier can help, it's only helpful if the weight is still light enough to hold away from the torso.

-S-

Correct me if I'm wrong but the farther the weight is away from the body, the more you have to bend over (aka your hips need to reach further back to counterbalance). The opposite is true no? If you were to keep the weight right by the throat, you'd have to stay pretty upright throughout.

I only ask because I usually do my Pistols with the weight as close to my throat as possible (racked) as that makes it easiest for me to stay upright. If I held it somewhere in front of me, I'd have to lean forward (which is actually the Pistol squat variation Pavel shows in TNW).

@rickyw : I think it's a generally unsafe movement, loaded pistol squats on the ground. Most people aren't using absurd loads, so a bit of a bend isn't gonna kill you. However, if that's worrisome, I would do them in an elevation, letting the free foot hang lower. I can do Pistols with a pretty straight back, as long as you let me stand in a high enough place. Perhaps you could too :)
 
@305pelusa, if falling over backwards is your problem, then the further forward the weight, the more it helps. It means the weight can be held in front of you rather than you having to bend forward to move your center of mass forward.

A lot of this has also to do with dorsiflexion, thus the falling backwards tendency is usually found in people with limited dorsiflexion. If you can get your knee nice and forward, then you don't need the counterweight.

-S-
 
Hello,

I usually do my Pistols with the weight as close to my throat as possible (racked) as that makes it easiest for me to stay upright
I tend to do the same.

Holding the bell far from our body will work more on shoulders. However, it will tend to make you bend. It can be interesting if you use a lighter bell (than if you hold close to you) to reinforce the back. A good variation IMO.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
However, if that's worrisome, I would do them in an elevation, letting the free foot hang lower. I can do Pistols with a pretty straight back, as long as you let me stand in a high enough place. Perhaps you could too :)
This is similar to my current favorite one legged move that you can load heavy with a straight spine-step ups

I see some guys who are born squatters who have less bend to the spine, but then a guy like me with long legs and a short torso gets lumbar flexion relatively earlier in any squat move. Loading the pistol may be safer for some than others. Of course I am sure relatively light weights would be okay for me if I follow @Steve Freides tips. I just couldn't believe my eyes when I read in the naked warrior last night about Steve cotter doing a pistol with double 32s! Crazy!
 
@rickyw
Don't you consider step-ups dangerous? Like you I have long legs compared to my torso and on top of it I'm 6'4.
To get a proper ROM for step-ups (90° or more), I need to step on something really high (~40 inches or higher).
Stepping up and down on a 40inch box with additional weight somewhere on my body? IMO too much that can go wrong there.
Bulgarian split squats are much safer.
 
@rickyw
Don't you consider step-ups dangerous? Like you I have long legs compared to my torso and on top of it I'm 6'4.
To get a proper ROM for step-ups (90° or more), I need to step on something really high (~40 inches or higher).
Stepping up and down on a 40inch box with additional weight somewhere on my body? IMO too much that can go wrong there.
Bulgarian split squats are much safer.
Never had a problem with it. I only hold kettlebells in my hands when I do it, which I can easily dump if I need to. I don't think I would ever use a barbell. Bulgarian split squats are nice too but I just don't care for the feel of them as much as the step up. Just personal preference, plus I like the greater stability demand from the step up
 
Hello,

Loading the pistol may be safer for some than others
Be careful. Sometimes, a load can hide an imbalance. For instance, at the beginning, I had a better left pistol with a load that with bodyweight. I figured out that my issue was ankle mobility.

Related to lumbar and back, I noticed that ab work helped me a lot (globally HSA and also dragon flag).

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Mastering the hollow position, intra-abdominal pressure and power breathing is a must - as well as applying them in the pistol practice. This is the way how we teach them at our SFB 1-Day courses and SFB Certs.
 
Hello,

Mastering the hollow position
I'd add that the hollow position help for lots of other moves (pull up, push up, etc...)

Combined with daily swings, it gives a strong back and help to have a very good stance in everyday life.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but the farther the weight is away from the body, the more you have to bend over (aka your hips need to reach further back to counterbalance). The opposite is true no? If you were to keep the weight right by the throat, you'd have to stay pretty upright throughout.
Only if your throat is near your center of gravity to begin with. Most people have a problem with their entire body being too far back, so anything that helps them not have to learn forward to compensate for that will help them.

Again, this is often related to dorsiflexion - if your ankles works well and your lower back isn't tight and your hamstrings aren't tight, and you know how to pull yourself down into the hole, etc., you don't need the counterbalance.

-S-
 
Hello,

Again, this is often related to dorsiflexion
This is true. Before I start the pistol in itself, I worked a lot my back, hip and ankle flexibility, on an everyday basis.

Beyond strength, pistol is all about flexibility. A good tip is to record oneself from different angles to see what goes right and wrong.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Any tips on improving ankle mobility/flexibility? (i think I need to work on that)
 
Someone posted links to some ideas here just yesterday, I think, in another thread. It's a good Google - "improve dorsiflexion" or similar.

-S-
 
One thing that will also help you stay as upright as possible would be doing pistols with your heels on an object like a weight plate or book and your toes looking over the edge as described in Naked Warrior. This will force you to push through your heels while also teaching you to find your ideal center of mass and thus staying as upright as possible.
 
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