Bodyweight Lumbar flexion and loaded pistols

[JamesR]

thanks pet - great article with some mobility tips. More of a reader than contributor in the forum but so grateful to you guys who take time to post and link up great info. (my kbs are in storage at moment so the bodyweight forum is my main lurking home as I try and get my head and body around pistols and push ups - strongfirst style)

 

[JZB]

YMMV but this is my take.

In my experience the rounded back is a bad idea. I am bulkier than the average naked warrior and I've achieved a full pistol with no heel elevation and I've owned it. And now I can say I won't be doing them anymore and that's fine.

I will however continue doing pistols, just on an elevated surface (roughly 1 foot elevated box) and holding a kettlebell in the goblet position. The body weight movements can tax your CNS in ways other lifts never will and there is so much fine motor programming that happens from learning them. This is especially true if you're body is proportioned in a way that puts you in severe mechanical disadvantage to do them to 100% standard. I was even dreaming about doing pistols at one point before I was fully performing them because my brain and CNS were devoting so much to them.

Then I noticed my kettlebell swing was looking like Gumby was performing it and my back was very rubbery and my low back was bending like crazy and I was losing power and risking hurting myself.

as long as you are getting benefits from the movement, progress it exactly as far as you can but no further. Forget the standards if you aren't trying to get the cert, you shouldn't program your body to do something that could hurt you elsewhere.

 

[pet']

Hello,

A too rounded back can also be synonym of a too heavy load / too weak abs - lumbar. From there, getting back to lighter weight and use some ab assistance exercises can be a worthwhile option.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Steve Freides]

Let's add some Flexible Steel wisdom to this discussion. One of our key principles is Spread, for spread the load. When you're doing a pistol and your back is going to round, one of the things you want to do with your intra-abdominal pressure is make each vertebral joint bend a little and not concentrate the bending in any one place.

And let's add one more thing - the lumbar spine is supposed to be able to round. There are many circumstances in which it rounding is less than ideal but that doesn't mean it's a movement pattern we want to eliminate, just that it's a movement pattern with which we need to be careful and which we always want under our own control.

-S-

 

[rickyw]

If I may counter slightly:

Here is my concern with IAP and loaded pistols...its risky to the disc. Increasing intra abdominal pressure with a rounded spine is how people herniate discs all the time-bearing down on the toilet, sneezing, etc. In fact Dejerines triad is an orthopedic test for disc-do you have pain when you cough sneeze or bear down?

And let's add one more thing - the lumbar spine is supposed to be able to round

Yes it is. In fact, my dad went to a physical therapist who told patients to never round their lumbar spine. Well after a year of religiously following this advice his back was so stiff he could hardly put his shoes on. Took some work to get him mobile again.

But is it supposed to be rounded under load? My understanding is that it is not the healthiest thing to do on a repeated basis.

Despite all this I recognize there are people out there who are getting away with heavy loaded pistols.

 

[Steve Freides]

@rickyw, let's continue this.

Increasing intra abdominal pressure with a rounded spine is how people herniate discs all the time-bearing down on the toilet, sneezing, etc. In fact Dejerines triad is an orthopedic test for disc-do you have pain when you cough sneeze or bear down?

The devil is in the details. Learning how to spread the load is a skill, and without that skill, simply increasing IAP can certainly do damage. We have no disagreement there. But the same comparison could be applied to many lifts, e.g., trying to pick up something heavy without the total body tension we teach at StrongFirst could, indeed, be bad for someone's back. But the way I practice it, it helps, not hurts, my back. Feed-forward tension is one of the key things about our methodology. It is part of the "reverse engineering what great lifters do naturally" that we pride ourselves on at StrongFirst.

I could go on at length about this but I will stop here - it's another discussion by itself. Suffice it to say that knowing how to get tight and stay tight is key to strength _and_ key to the healthy performance of any challenging strength activity, be it a barbell deadlift or a bodyweight pistol.

But is [the lumbar spine] supposed to be rounded under load? My understanding is that it is not the healthiest thing to do on a repeated basis.

No, it's not supposed to be rounded under load, but we learn from Dr. McGill that at least some people tolerate this pretty well, and a bigger "don't do this!" is _moving_ it into a more rounded position while _moving_ under load, e.g., rounding at the bottom of a barbell back squat.

You actually raise two points - above, we're talking about rounding under load. Your second point is about doing this repeatedly, and that's a separate thing because anything we do repeatedly (by which I assume you mean for multiple reps in one set) necessitates "turning down the volume control," by which I mean lowering the overall level of tension. Because tension is key to the safe practice of strength, we have to be more careful. There are some people who can tolerate doing a lot of pistols in a short time, but there are definitely more people who can learn to do a pistol as a strength move and safety practice it for low reps. I like to think that most people fall into this second category - they learn how to move well (they clear their FMS), they learn how to be strong, and they learn how to spread the load of a high IAP across not only their entire lumbar region but really their entire body, and they therefore can learn to perform a pistol safely.

Despite all this I recognize there are people out there who are getting away with heavy loaded pistols.

As mentioned elsewhere, a loaded pistol allows one to round the spine less, and the load is quite light on the spine compared to a barbell back squat. I think learning a bw-only pistol is more challenging to more spines than learning to do a heavily weight one.

-S-

 

[305pelusa]

@rickyw : I agree with what you've said. If you do loaded Pistols and your back is rounded, you are potentially looking for trouble. Max Shank recognized this some time ago, and even wrote about it:
Put your pistols down!

I know people don't like him as much here, but the guy knows his stuff and I agree with his logic. There are safer one leg exercises to load.

Also, I should mention that it is possible to do Heavy Pistols, with a rather straight back, on the floor. However, it requires a ton of mobility work. And I don't mean "more mobility than a couch potato". I mean the kind of mobility people with splits and head-to-toes have. So it's doable if you want to put in the time. Weightlifting shoes also help quite a bit!

 

[Steve Freides]

@305pelusa, to touch on some of the points you raise:

We're discussed loading a rounded spine - there are lots of details to pay attention to. In general, if you're sitting upright as you are in a pistol, it's less a problem because there is much less of a shear force to contend with. I learned this from Marty Gallagher. I don't think some rounding of the back is a reason to not work on one's pistol, loaded or otherwise - again, discussed at length above. We shouldn't be overly general here - a trainee should work with their coach, and if the pistol can be performed in a safe and effective manner, there's no reason to avoid it. Should one program pistols for one's beginner, group class? No.

Weightlifting shoes don't comply with the StrongFirst standard for a pistol, which is barefoot or a flat shoe like a Converse Allstar.

The rolling deck pistol is an interesting variation to work on as a pistol on the floor.

-S-

 

[305pelusa]

In general, if you're sitting upright as you are in a pistol, it's less a problem because there is much less of a shear force to contend with.

Less shear sure. But more compression. I have no issue with that, but I can see how some folks would.

I don't think some rounding of the back is a reason to not work on one's pistol, loaded or otherwise - again, discussed at length above.

I mean, I'm not arguing either way. I'm just saying that if you're doing Pistol squats for building strength without having to use very heavy weights, there are variations that are just as difficult, but use a flatter back. Jim Bathurst has also written about his modified step-up as an excellent alternative to the loaded Pistol:
One Legged Squat (The Pistol) « Bodyweight Strength Training « Beast Skills

If you're someone scared about loading the spine in that position, there's no shame at all with using these other exercises. They'll build just as much strength.

Weightlifting shoes don't comply with the StrongFirst standard for a pistol, which is barefoot or a flat shoe like a Converse Allstar.

I want to clarify that you should work up to a naked Pistol barefoot. Using a weightlifter shoe in order to do Pistols at all is robbing you of the mobility benefits.

However, once you have a strong Pistol down, using a weightlifting shoe is an excellent way to maintain a straighter alignment. This makes sense because the Pistol is more like a Front Squat than a Back Squat.

Some Pistol variations (namely then Overhead Pistol) practically demand you use a weightlifting shoe. It's almost impossible to do them otherwise.

 

[rickyw]

The devil is in the details. Learning how to spread the load is a skill, and without that skill, simply increasing IAP can certainly do damage. We have no disagreement there. But the same comparison could be applied to many lifts, e.g., trying to pick up something heavy without the total body tension we teach at StrongFirst could, indeed, be bad for someone's back. But the way I practice it, it helps, not hurts, my back. Feed-forward tension is one of the key things about our methodology. It is part of the "reverse engineering what great lifters do naturally" that we pride ourselves on at StrongFirst.

I could go on at length about this but I will stop here - it's another discussion by itself. Suffice it to say that knowing how to get tight and stay tight is key to strength _and_ key to the healthy performance of any challenging strength activity, be it a barbell deadlift or a bodyweight pistol.

Touche, Steve, touche. Well spoken

No, it's not supposed to be rounded under load, but we learn from Dr. McGill that at least some people tolerate this pretty well

The key phrase here is "some people".

You actually raise two points - above, we're talking about rounding under load. Your second point is about doing this repeatedly, and that's a separate thing because anything we do repeatedly (by which I assume you mean for multiple reps in one set) necessitates "turning down the volume control," by which I mean lowering the overall level of tension. Because tension is key to the safe practice of strength, we have to be more careful. There are some people who can tolerate doing a lot of pistols in a short time, but there are definitely more people who can learn to do a pistol as a strength move and safety practice it for low reps. I like to think that most people fall into this second category - they learn how to move well (they clear their FMS), they learn how to be strong, and they learn how to spread the load of a high IAP across not only their entire lumbar region but really their entire body, and they therefore can learn to perform a pistol safely.

Well said. And I must add that I see nothing wrong with this reasoning in relation to bodyweight or lightly loaded pistols.

But...

and a bigger "don't do this!" is _moving_ it into a more rounded position while _moving_ under load, e.g., rounding at the bottom of a barbell back squat.

This flexion under load happens all the time in loaded pistols, moreso in some people than others. The femur hits the rim of the acetabulum after a certain degree of hip flexion and that low back is going to round more at the bottom of the pistol squat. It's just unavoidable because the move requires you to keep the thigh adducted..

For example:



And even the brunette shown in the link posted by Karen, with good body proportions and mechanics, rounds more at the bottom. You get a long legged fellow with a short torso loading a pistol heavy? I've seen some videos online that make me cringe. Loading that heavy over and over...meh, I think your comment about the dosage of the lift is spot on.

You are correct that avoiding lower back rounding with shear forces is more of a concern than straight compression and flexion, but compression w/rounding can still be a problem for folks.

Based on the discussion, I see no justification for heavy loading of this move. The risk is not worth the reward IMO.

What I've learned from this thread:
Learn and practice proper principles of tension
Learn the pistol squat correctly
Don't overdose it, YMMV
Don't perform the pistol before a move that requires a stiff spine

 

[Antti]

Reading this discussion my take on the subject is that some people are better off not doing (weighted) pistols and that some people can do it, although it's maybe better if even them do not overdo them.

So, what exactly is the advantage of the pistol? If you're not extremely equipment starved, why not do front or back squats? Is the core/balance/tension work of the pistol unique to the movement, or can it not be learned with a one arm one leg push-up, or a TGU, or something else? I reckon that a kettlebell swing, for example, is such an important movement that it should be done by nearly everyone like it is. Does the pistol share the importance, or is it more easily substituted for an another squat and some other tension work?

Now, we all have our goals and limitations and that we know that everything depends on them. Still, if your goal is not specific to the pistol, for what goal is the pistol a better movement than some of its substitutes?

I'm not trying to be a donkey or a mule or anything such, but genuinely curious why the pistol holds such a high regard around here. I get that bodyweight is bodyweight, but to me it seems an artificial limitation for 99% of the people for 99% of the time.

 

[pet']

Hello,

It can be an interesting variation to go for the Hawaïan squat. I noticed that most of the time, we bend a bit less with this technique. Plus, it is a little bit easier (IMO) because the passive leg is on the active one. It works groin opening as well.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[offwidth]

Reading this discussion my take on the subject is that some people are better off not doing (weighted) pistols and that some people can do it, although it's maybe better if even them do not overdo them.

So, what exactly is the advantage of the pistol? If you're not extremely equipment starved, why not do front or back squats? Is the core/balance/tension work of the pistol unique to the movement, or can it not be learned with a one arm one leg push-up, or a TGU, or something else? I reckon that a kettlebell swing, for example, is such an important movement that it should be done by nearly everyone like it is. Does the pistol share the importance, or is it more easily substituted for an another squat and some other tension work?

Now, we all have our goals and limitations and that we know that everything depends on them. Still, if your goal is not specific to the pistol, for what goal is the pistol a better movement than some of its substitutes?

I'm not trying to be a donkey or a mule or anything such, but genuinely curious why the pistol holds such a high regard around here. I get that bodyweight is bodyweight, but to me it seems an artificial limitation for 99% of the people for 99% of the time.

You raise some good points, and I don't have all the answers, but speaking for myself... I rarely have access to the kind of weights required to do significant leg work by front/back squats. I travel a lot at times. The portability of calisthenics and NW type training has great appeal. For me as well, the philosophic aspects of minimalism are appealing. From a practical perspective I find the pistol has very good carry over to rock climbing.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Pistols work a lot on strength, balance and flexibility. Adding weight permits to work even more on strength. Nonetheless, it makes them less knee-friendly.

To compensate that, working on very slow motion may be an attractive solution.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Antti]

You raise some good points, and I don't have all the answers, but speaking for myself... I rarely have access to the kind of weights required to do significant leg work by front/back squats. I travel a lot at times. The portability of calisthenics and NW type training has great appeal. For me as well, the philosophic aspects of minimalism are appealing. From a practical perspective I find the pistol has very good carry over to rock climbing.

Thanks for your response. Sounds like you have perfectly good reasons for bodyweight training. It is natural, if unwelcome, that not all of us have access to free weights or kettlebells to use for training, and then we must make do with what we have. The way I understand it rock climbing has a lot of unilateral work and excess weight is really not wanted so it must be one of the pursuits which benefits the most from the pistol.

To be clear, I don't mean to disrespect bodyweight training. I do a lot of it myself: pull-ups, hanging leg raises, push-ups, etc. I'm just puzzled why some people seem to think it's the end all of all training.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Antti
Nothing prevents you from doing some pistol variations (shrimp, standard, dragon, hawaian, etc...) as a stretch and strength move only. I use it as an overall move

This is what I do now and it works pretty well actually.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[offwidth]

@Antti
I don't think you are disrespecting body weight training at all. You ask a valid question. There are a lot of tools at our disposal for training. Circumstances, goals, and other factors define which tool(s) we should apply.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Antti
Plus, it can be highly "personal" and there are plenty of variables here, but I feel more supple since I use a little bit more bodyweight training.

Stretching is crucial when you lift weights. However, when you are into bodyweight, it becomes possible to go for some moves which require strength and flexibility at the same time.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[rickyw]

So, what exactly is the advantage of the pistol?

The advantage for me is the ability to strengthen and challenge the stability of the knee, ankle, and hip through an extremely wide range of motion. Exercises that do this have always interested me as I find that as we age we lose our ability to stabilize and apply strength through a broad range of motion.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Adding some yoga moves / complexes permits to maintain a more than acceptable overall strength and stabilization.

Kind regards,

Pet'