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Other/Mixed MAF Jump Rope?

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

Steve W.

Level 8 Valued Member
Now, the follow up of course is what should we do when we only have two hours a week to spend on aerobic capacity. Still the same 9:1 ratio of the serious endurance folk? Or at what point does it change?
Personally, I can subjectively feel a difference if I can get in as little as one 60 minute session per week of low intensity sustained cardio (NordicTrack ski machine). That's nothing for an endurance athlete, but it has a noticeable effect for me. I remember in Lance Armstrong's book where he mentions really feeling incapacitated by his cancer or chemo treatment because a one hour ride was exhausting and normally if he only had time for a one hour ride he wouldn't even bother. To him, there was no real difference between training for an hour and not training at all. But to me, that one hour (even once a week) has a lot of value.

I feel like my KB ballistics are fine for non-specific "conditioning," but there's a dimension missing that the sustained low intensity stuff provides, even in relatively small doses.
 

BJJ Shawn

Level 6 Valued Member
Since the discussion has gone to the best method for aerobic development, it would be relevant to go back to the goals and objectives.

We don't actually know that his OP's goal is to get the most aerobic development, or to minimize the time doing it. We just have:



To which there were a lot of great suggestions on page 1.

To me, the most relevant things when choosing aerobic exercise activities and methods are A) what does someone like to do, and B) what physical qualities and/or outcomes are most desired to develop.

And, with aerobic exercise, I'm usually thinking in terms of slow twitch muscle fiber development, so I'm spending the majority of the time keeping the intensity of force production low to moderate, for LISS, which I think is the best way to develop the aerobic system. However, I also let A) and B) trump the "best" way, if there's something I like more, or will give an effective shortcut to the desired outcome.

Just to add more context, not that I mind where the thread has gone, but to give more answers about WHAT I'm trying to achieve so others can chime in about HOW.

I have 1 hour available M-F each morning before work, but it's at 5am so my family is sleeping and I have to stay quiet. I am currently doing Q&D 3 days a week on M, W, F as outlined in the book, but only doing either 40 or 60 reps right now. Then taking a short break, and doing 5/3/1 barbells lifts (weights and reps vary, but average of about 10-15 reps per lift per week, so it's fairly minimal and I'm doing it more to maintain strength in these lifts). Monday is OHP day, Wednesday is deadlift day, Friday is bench press day. Each of those days I am also doing 3x5 of lighter weight squats, and doing a quick "there and back" carry as a finisher. These days, so far, are going really well.

What I'm trying to do is find something easy to do on T and TH to supplement my aerobic work so I can try to be fresher for longer in BJJ. When I have better conditioning, I can roll for longer at a higher level, which allows more practice before fatigue sets in and hence more quality learning. There have also been other articles like this that make the argument that poor aerobic conditioning can lead to worse strength training: Avoiding Cardio Could Be Holding You Back • Stronger by Science . Normally, I get that cardio in by DOING BJJ, so I don't have to think about it, but since I'm out of the gym and have been for a while due to COVID and having both toddlers in the house and elderly parents that help watch them, so I need to do something else in the place of my normal BJJ.

I have no desire to climb mountains, run a marathon, ride a century ride, etc. I simply don't want to suck wind walking up stairs and be prepared better for BJJ training so I'm not sure the modality matters as much as just putting in the work.
 

Neuro-Bob

Level 9 Valued Member
I jump rope pretty frequently, for similar reasons. Either I’m home and want to remain home in case the little guy wakes up earlier than normal, or I’m in a hotel (which are not usually in running-friendly spots).

I started by working up to the point of being able to do 100 skips continuously. Then I turned it into sets of 100 skips. Next was achieving 1000 skips in under 10min. And so on….

I’m not sure of my heart rate as it is not something I track. So I’m not sure that it would meet your MAF goal or not. I do tend towards more of an “endurance” pace with it than HIIT bursts.

But as far as “cardio,” jumping rope works well if you are location-restricted.

Bonus point: a lot of fighting sports have jump rope in their history of regular training tools. Especially boxing. If it’s good enough for a 15 round boxing match, it’s probably good enough for BJJ.
 

Manuel Fortin

Level 6 Valued Member
So, while I see what you're saying, I already despise running and while I had my first run today all I could think about was how to not have to do it, HAHA. My pathetic run this morning was only 3 miles, and I'm pretty sure it's the longest continuous run I have done in 20+ years. If it even has a chance of a drizzle, I'm pretty sure mentally I'm going to skip it so I'm just trying to find alternatives.

Yes, that is what I typically do, actually. The problem is that where I live is totally flat, and I have a hard time getting my HR up ENOUGH while rucking. I'm sure if I get a better bag that I can load more weight in it might do the trick, but with 40lbs in the sack, 2 lb heavy hands, and 5lb ankle weights I still only get my HR up to about 125-130 which is a bit low, even at 15 minute mile. . I really don't want to jog with all that weight on, but that's about the only way I could do it currently since I don't have a good ruck sack and any more weight in the pack I use causes too much shoulder pain.

I have no desire to climb mountains, run a marathon, ride a century ride, etc. I simply don't want to suck wind walking up stairs and be prepared better for BJJ training so I'm not sure the modality matters as much as just putting in the work.

You probably went too hard on your run. If you didn't run for years or decades and run 3 miles on your first time out, you are setting yourself up for failure. I never liked running myself until I got into Maffetone, and saw it a necessary evil during my rugby years (before my Maffetone discovery). The trick is to go really easy and start very small. Note that the 180-age is only a guideline, as other said, and it's not the end of the story, which is very often forgotten. Notably, from the man himself:
"If you are injured, have regressed or not improved in training (such as poor MAF Tests) or competition, get more than two colds, flu or other infections per year, have seasonal allergies or asthma, are overfat, are in Stage 1 or 2 of overtraining, or if you have been inconsistent, just starting, or just getting back into training, subtract an additional 5."
I you are not used to running, 141 is likely too high for you. Your MAF HR is closer to 135, and this is a maximal HR, not the ultimate goal.

Personal story: during the summer I only do tennis. I am on a court most days to either play a match (2-3 times a week), train technique or various plays, rally, etc.., or help my daughter train. That's more than 10-12 hours a week for the whole summer of physical activity, some of which very intense. Training the daughter is in fact the toughest as she really likes to see me running. You would figure I would be in great shape, but when the tennis season finished, my first run was a very easy 2 miles, in just short of 30 minutes, and that was more than enough.
In the winter, before there is enough snow to XC ski, I use a treadmill, and currently my speed is 4.2 mph with a .5% slope. That's barely faster than walking. That gets me to about 130-135 bpm and is very comfortable. Basically, if I can run and forget that I'm running (just like you can walk and be lost in your thoughts), I have the right pace. Otherwise, it's too fast. That was my guidline last year and I got to covering 20 km XC skiing (classical) in 2 hours. I also did A+A snatches, not just running/skiing though. However, I tried really hard not to go over 135 for too long while training locomotion. That's not a world record, but that was enough to last me through my tennis season so that aerobic fitness was not the limiting factor. My goal is always to the tennis aspect be the limiting factor, not fitness.

All this to say that maybe you should give running another try at an easier pace, or maybe rucking at 125-130 bpm would be good enough. Also, eventually your Q&D will get longer, and this will also contribute to your aerobic fitness. If you're not planning on doing pure endurance events, who cares if it's not "optimal". You will improve and get to an acceptable (for you) fitness level eventually. Just like you maintain your BB lifts with 531 and don't go for a Smolov cycle. If it takes 16 weeks instead of 14 to get to a given VO2 max or whatever, it really doesn't matter. Better get there slower and enjoy it than get there earlier and hate every minute of it. If all else is really unpleasant, just a one hour fast paced walk may do the trick for now.

All this stress minimization is also important given your situation (toddlers, parents at home, ...).
 

BJJ Shawn

Level 6 Valued Member
All this to say that maybe you should give running another try at an easier pace, or maybe rucking at 125-130 bpm would be good enough.

Thanks for the reply and suggestions. I have not given up on running (well, slow jogging really), I was just looking for something for those days that I don't want to go out in the cold/wet weather and could do in my garage.
"If you are injured, have regressed or not improved in training (such as poor MAF Tests) or competition, get more than two colds, flu or other infections per year, have seasonal allergies or asthma, are overfat, are in Stage 1 or 2 of overtraining, or if you have been inconsistent, just starting, or just getting back into training, subtract an additional 5."
I you are not used to running, 141 is likely too high for you. Your MAF HR is closer to 135, and this is a maximal HR, not the ultimate goal.

I didn't want to start too low, as the goal is to maintain MAF HR is within 5 bpm, correct? I'm just starting on jogging, but I have been very physically active my whole life, so maybe I misinterpreted it but I figured I should be close to the standard number. If I can still improve while dropping my BPM done a bit I'd be fine with that. I know people say walking is good for you, and I do a lot of walking but have not noticed any real benefit from it other than mentally I enjoy it. If I'm going to run, I just wanted to make sure I actually got a benefit from it and didn't go so easy that it is a waste of time.
 

Boris Bachmann

Level 7 Valued Member
I think you could still do the rucking and pick your knees up higher and pump your arms harder if it's not enough of a kick to your HR... But yeah, as I was trying to say 2 pages ago, low intensity is good.
 

solarbear

Level 5 Valued Member
Hello All,

Maybe I'm out of shape, maybe I'm too dumb, or maybe I'm just doing something wrong but I can't seem to use a jump rope and keep my heart rate from skyrocketing. I am trying to find a quiet way to get some LISS training on my non strength days without leaving my house when it's raining, so I thought a nice easy jump rope could do the trick. However, if I try to leisurely jump rope, my HR still goes up to like 160+ and if I try to slow it down too much gravity keeps the rope from even making it all the way around. Is there a trick or is jumping rope just not a good solution to this problem?

I'm the sort of dude who struggles to jog. For jumping rope, used to do 30sec on and 30sec off. It keeps the HR up but doesn't push you over. Most people can keep this going for at least 10 min if not much longer.
 

Period

Level 7 Valued Member
Thanks for the reply and suggestions. I have not given up on running (well, slow jogging really), I was just looking for something for those days that I don't want to go out in the cold/wet weather and could do in my garage.
Feel free to check out the old 5BX that I mentioned earlier (5BX - How To Begin - check the various charts on the left, chart 6 being the hardest). It's the best indoor alternative for running that I've come across so far, and doesn't require any equipment. You could also scale it for longer durations if you wanted.
Other than that, I'd once again recommend technique drills with rubber bands for your grappling goals. These are tradtionally part of the road work of grapplers (and boxers) in the former Eastern Block.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Elite Certified Instructor
Pavel's "The Quick and the Dead" pages 7-33 makes the case for why it's not advocated more often here...

Not arguing with your point, just pointing out where the complete explanation lies in why it's not the StrongFirst preferred method.
I don't have a copy to reference....
That's a shame. PM me your mailing address and I'll buy you a copy on amazon.com and have it shipped directly to you.

Until you've read Q&D, I'll supply a few quotations:
  • "'high intensity interval training' - dramatic, inefficient, costly"

  • "The Q&D protocol was designed to maximize your performance at the lowest biological cost"

  • "High-level Soviet athletes from different sports were subjected to a battery of tests of different qualities. As expected, most severely lagged in attributes outside their specialties. ... Sprinters were the outliers who stood out with their all-around development. ... Sprinting is nothing like "high intensity interval training,"
-S-
 

Period

Level 7 Valued Member
  • "High-level Soviet athletes from different sports were subjected to a battery of tests of different qualities. As expected, most severely lagged in attributes outside their specialties. ... Sprinters were the outliers who stood out with their all-around development. ... Sprinting is nothing like "high intensity interval training,"
I got curious about the types of athletes they tested, and the battery of tests used. However, it appears my ebook version is lacking the full citation of the titles. Does anyone know the title of Nikolay Yakovlev's publication in 1983? I was unable to find that out in a quick research, my university's library search engine came up empty as well.
 

BJJ Shawn

Level 6 Valued Member
I got curious about the types of athletes they tested, and the battery of tests used. However, it appears my ebook version is lacking the full citation of the titles. Does anyone know the title of Nikolay Yakovlev's publication in 1983? I was unable to find that out in a quick research, my university's library search engine came up empty as well.
There are no titles in the references section of the physical book, but it does mention that many of the references are not available in English.

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Period

Level 7 Valued Member
There are no titles in the references section of the physical book, but it does mention that many of the references are not available in English.

View attachment 15549
First of all, thanks. Well, I cannot fluently read cyrillic yet, my spoken Russian is just enough to understand simple technique explanations, but I know how to use a translator, and my coach is Russian, so that wouldn't necessarily stop me ;)
 

North Coast Miller

Level 8 Valued Member
That's a shame. PM me your mailing address and I'll buy you a copy on amazon.com and have it shipped directly to you.

Until you've read Q&D, I'll supply a few quotations:
  • "'high intensity interval training' - dramatic, inefficient, costly"

  • "The Q&D protocol was designed to maximize your performance at the lowest biological cost"

  • "High-level Soviet athletes from different sports were subjected to a battery of tests of different qualities. As expected, most severely lagged in attributes outside their specialties. ... Sprinters were the outliers who stood out with their all-around development. ... Sprinting is nothing like "high intensity interval training,"
-S-

Steve, thank you very much for the offer but I went ahead and ordered a copy, should be here soon.
 

Manuel Fortin

Level 6 Valued Member
Thanks for the reply and suggestions. I have not given up on running (well, slow jogging really), I was just looking for something for those days that I don't want to go out in the cold/wet weather and could do in my garage.


I didn't want to start too low, as the goal is to maintain MAF HR is within 5 bpm, correct? I'm just starting on jogging, but I have been very physically active my whole life, so maybe I misinterpreted it but I figured I should be close to the standard number. If I can still improve while dropping my BPM done a bit I'd be fine with that. I know people say walking is good for you, and I do a lot of walking but have not noticed any real benefit from it other than mentally I enjoy it. If I'm going to run, I just wanted to make sure I actually got a benefit from it and didn't go so easy that it is a waste of time.
As other said, that's not the mentality to have. If you struggle at 140 BPM, it's simply too much for you now. Maybe in 1 month it will be fine, but you need to start slower. MAF running is like Easy Strength. The exact number is not important. My target is "If I finish my run and would be able to redo it in the same time (maybe not as easy, but could finish it if I needed), then I did something right.

Also, running is its own thing. As I mentioned, even with more than 10 hours of tennis per week for the whole summer, I still needed to adapt to continuous running when I got back into it.

As to not wanting to go outside when the weather is bad, I fully understand this. I myself run on a treadmill as I can only train at night and I don't want to have to deal with ice patches in the dark. The only issue is that these things are loud and expensive. Maybe move one of the running sessions to the weekend when it's raining on one of the weekdays on which you were supposed to run?
 

mikhou

Level 2 Valued Member
Late to the party here, but once per week I do a workout where I do 10 lightweight KB swings (20kg) EMOM for 25 minutes. Every other minute after the 10 swings, I jump rope the rest of the time (so about 45 seconds or so). Then on the even minutes, I just rest, walk back and forth or so. It's not that difference from some of Craig Marker's article except that I added the jump rope. So I:

0:00 - 10 swings, jump rope until 1:00
1:00 - 10 swings, rest and walk.
2:00 - 10 swings, jump rope until 3:00
3:00 - 10 swings, rest and walk.
Repeat as long as you like. I usually go about 25-30 minutes. It can get monotonous, but it's a low key MAF workout for me, and I enjoy it.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

Jump rope is a skill per se.

If we consider aerobic activity as the cardiac output, regardless the skill, then we can get it thanks to multiple tool: rowing, rucking, swimming, etc... If there is no interest (meet, etc...) in running and if the aerobic work is the goal, then there are "low skill" stuff such as rowing.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Coyote

Level 6 Valued Member
As someone who does Ultra-Marathons and other forms of long bipedal travel, I absolutely understand your hesitation on running. People take running for granted, but it takes a long time to get to a point where it doesn't suck. There are tons of injuries from running, and it seems to be boring for a lot of people. I ran outside in -20 real temp last year, rather then run on a treadmill, so I get that some people find certain activities boring.

There is also a reason running is a common aerobic activity practiced by martial artists and pugilists around the world. I read recently that in Thailand, the top Muay Thai fighters run 8+ hours a week.

It works.

For what you are wanting, I really do not think you can beat jogging or even fast walking. I do not know that two hours a week will greatly increase your cardio, but you are getting some aerobic benefit from Q&D. Two hours a week will help with recovery, I would think.
 
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