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Other/Mixed Maffetone questions

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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simon0596

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I have been reading about the maffetone method for KB, as well as for other endurance endeavors (marathon, Tri's, etc). Everyone extols its virtues, and I expect they're right, but I have one misgiving: I haven't seen anything out there where they take two groups of untrained individuals and subject one to the traditional "no pain, no gain" method, while the other goes Maf from the get-go.

I agree that I'm making good gains doing this, but does one need a base of "no pain, no gain" to get the benefit? If there's someone out there who knows, I'd love to hear it.
 
simon0596 said:
does one need a base of "no pain, no gain" to get the benefit?
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I would say it's the opposite. One needs a good aerobic base through MAF or other aerobic training in order for "no pain, no gain" to be effective (and not damaging). Which to me explains a lot about why going "no pain, no gain" works for some, and not others. It's hard to look at someone's performance and discern if they have a good aerobic base. It's more stealthy than showy, but it sure ups the ante in the end.
 
@simon0596 ,

The problem with your question lies in the realm of longevity. No pain no gain (npng for the context of this discussion) always wins in the short term, and sadly, that is where most opinions about fitness lie, in the short term. Training on a basis of NPNG puts a lot of stress on your body and its various systems, and when coupled with any amount of external stress (perceived or real) the results include, but are not limited to fatigue, lethargy outside of the training room, plateau, persistent flu like symptoms, decreased performance, elevated HR at submaximal efforts, constant muscle soreness, moodiness, injury, burnout, and disease.

Articles - Dr. Phil Maffetone

Poke around this page for some explanations by a professional.

Also look for "Athletes: Fit but unhealthy" by Maffetone and Laursen.

If I had it all over to do again, I would have ditched the NPNG long ago for a A+A+LSD approach to training.

Those untrained individuals are basically the masses; folks who do XFit, P90X, insanity, etc. How long do they last with these programs? Sure,mother will make gains faster, but at what price?

But as Ms Anna C said, that good aerobic base will help your body recover from activities of ANY intensity.
 
@simon0596... Anna's correct in the order of preference: big, huginated aerobic engine, footnoted by some work on your turbocharger. You're not going to find such a study, so if you the sort that can't do without peer reviewed research to support your actions, then you will be idle for some time, my friend.

Also, to clarify, there is no "Maffetone method" for KBs. The method, as written, applies to steady state locomotion. I had the idea to try and use the HR cap for KB ballistics, but it did not pan out in the same way as with locomotion. What you are actually asking about, in a short summary, is "resting more" vs. "resting less".

Tabata gets thrown around a lot. The studies were performed on elite aerobic athletes who had already spent years building an aerobic base; not couch potatoes or weekend warriors. As Steve would say, "YMMV".
 
aciampa said:
Also, to clarify, there is no "Maffetone method" for KBs. The method, as written, applies to steady state locomotion. I had the idea to try and use the HR cap for KB ballistics, but it did not pan out in the same way as with locomotion.
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After reviewing my practice notes and data spreadsheet I have come to believe this is true. The talk test didn't work, I had a "crash and burn", after the first four weeks of S&S so I started using Gymboss on my phone to ensure my Maffetone HR was in the zone. Over the next months I progressed and then in Jan 2016 I had another "crash and burn" even with staying under my target HR.

Medical issues not related to kettlebells including a knee replacement next week has giving me a reset when I resume S&S. I will continue to wear the HR belt once every two weeks for data purposes but on a daily basis the HR question is yes/no.
 
@Boosh32 How have you managed to control your training so you avoid the crash and burn state?

I have been doing HR training with S&S and I still find it very easy to tip over the edge into overtraining if I'm not careful, having been a late starter in terms of regular physical exercise. I can only manage three days a week working with a 16kg doing 20x5 1H swings.

I love S&S but getting my aerobic tank to expand seems to be very arduous.
 
@Boosh32 @Statia

I would love to hear about your negative experiences. If either or both of you could find the time to write a summary and answer any follow on questions I might have, I would appreciate it. PM me, please.

Statia said:
I love S&S but getting my aerobic tank to expand seems to be very arduous.
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The truth is that this might be difficult to do without an appropriate diet and locomotion training. Other stress in your life and state of health also require significant differences in your approach.
 
Statia said:
@Boosh32 How have you managed to control your training so you avoid the crash and burn state?

I have been doing HR training with S&S and I still find it very easy to tip over the edge into overtraining if I'm not careful, having been a late starter in terms of regular physical exercise. I can only manage three days a week working with a 16kg doing 20x5 1H swings.

I love S&S but getting my aerobic tank to expand seems to be very arduous.
Click to expand...

How long is your rest between sets? Most people get the best results by practicing at least five days a week. The short version of my experience is the rest time between sets when I moved up - cut rest by 24 seconds I had to go to a day on - day off schedule for a few days before resuming daily practice.

The most important thing is to keep working. You will get better.
 
This is a great thread. I am 55 and have been doing S&S for about 15 months now. I also do karate three times a week. I have progressed to 28 kg for both Swings and TGU just recently. I have been monitoring HR since last summer but recently switched to ventilation rate to tell me when to do my next set of swings. About once a week I strap on the Polar H7 and do 1H swings 10x10 on the minute. It has been a bit frustrating as I find that HR metrics in the last 2 months have not improved yet I feel that I am stronger. I have often wondered... 1. Am I overtraining for my age? I just recently cut S&S to three times a week max. 2. Is my aerobic base insufficient? I originally thought my karate sessions would take care of that but... Karate sessions tend to be more anaerobic in my opinion based on my ventilation rate. 3. Does S&S training at my age require more LSDS work? I have been considering adding two days of MAF runs of 20 to 30'. So many questions. Love this stuff!!
 
Great question, Peter, and I won't pretend to know the answers, though I've been training with this stuff under Al's guidance for a year and a half now.

If it makes you feel any better, a good set of swings brings my HR up just as high as it ever did. I am stronger, but my HR still jumps way up there beyond MAF value with a quick and powerful work set.

I'm not too concerned with how high it goes though, as long as it's a quick set, and I'm not spending a lot of time in glycolysis. What I have seen is that the recovery is better (HR drop is quicker), and my endurance is better in that I can keep doing sets for quite a long time without my HR trending upwards.
 
Boosh32 said:
How long is your rest between sets?
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This morning I did 20x5 with 16kg and I was averaging 1min rest between sets. I kicked off a new set when my HR dropped to 120bpm and it peaked after a set to about 135-140bpm. I'm 40yrs old.

Boosh32 said:
Most people get the best results by practicing at least five days a week.
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I'd love to do 5 days a week, but my recovery systems cannot cope with that level of work at the moment. If I do two days in a row, I need two days rest as I will feel tired out.

Boosh32 said:
The most important thing is to keep working. You will get better.
Click to expand...

Despite my frustrations, I intend to stick with it and hopefully get some traction.

Thanks.
 
Statia said:
I'd love to do 5 days a week, but my recovery systems cannot cope with that level of work at the moment. If I do two days in a row, I need two days rest as I will feel tired out.
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Experiment a bit more with your start hr, and feel how that all feels during and in recovery afterwards and the following days.
I found that by keeping under my maf number for most sets, not being bothered if there is a few points over in the latter sets gave me the recovery to do 3/4 days in a row. If those peaks were more regular and/or higher it was 1 or 2 days max. Try and see is the litmus test. Drop your start hr, monitor how you feel and monitor if you progress easier. There seems a wide variability in experiences with recovery more individual with life stressors and other circumstances at play. So a little bit of tweaking is necessary. And when you do tweak stuff it's important, I think, to make a connection to how that tweak affects your practice.....gives you your own measure. Also, remember the non-negotiable aspects.....full, crisp swings. If you recognise a drop in power production, drop a couple of reps, drop your hr and consolidate that. I found too that pushing to 10 even with longer rests was sending me to high and needing longer to recover from. That for me was the biggest learning moment of S&S......feeling and recognising a drop in power and the relationship to hr. So yes, drop your hr and see.
I found my start and general range on most days to be max range of 25.
Start at 100, most sets go up to 120/124, latter they go 126/128, taking about 10 minutes. I did start at 115.....too high....110.....105 not too bad.....100 about right. I'm 52, maf 128. However I tweaked that number back to 124 (51 then) doing simple cuz of recent injury. I don't do S&S daily now and don't take as much interest in my hr. I do monitor it, just to check in, but do breathing focus. I sprint at the moment and keep S&S meditative for recovery, which is a bit weird.....recovery with a 32 kg bell. But yes, it is what it is......
 
Has anyone experienced an increase in their maximum heart rate as a result of training?

-S-
 
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