Maffetone running to compliment S+S

Lotto

Level 1 Valued Member
Hi. Currently doing S+S 4 times a week. Achieved timed simple with a 24kg bell and now introducing a 32kg. I do yoga 4 times a week. (90 mins session) and I would like to introduce Maffetone running in. Can someone point me in the direction of details on Maffetone running and how best to incorporate it into my S+S plan. I'm happy to adjust my S+S/yoga routine to accommodate. Thank you.
 

godjira1

Level 5 Valued Member
This is simple. Do it 3x per week, 30-45min.

Requirements:
1) Use a HR monitor for best results. If not, nasal breathing ONLY. If you need to open your mouth, slow down.
2) HR Max is 180 - age. It should feel like RPE 5.5-6 effort. If it feels harder than that, reduce the HR max by 5. Reverse is also true.

Notes:
1) It is NORMAL to be running at what feels like a ridiculously slow pace, and have to walk uphill to keep your HR low.
2) you should feel like you could almost do another run at the same pace... when u finish.
3) monitor your resting hr over time, if this method works for you, you should see it lower over time.
 

John Locke

Level 4 Valued Member
If possible, avoid doing S&S and running on the same day.
If not it is better doing cardio before

my 2 cents
 

Bauer

Level 6 Valued Member
@John Locke. That's interesting. I had initially planned to do it after S+S. Why is it best to split the running from S+S?
Cardio after strength training will diminish hypertrophy and strength adaptations and favor endurance adaptations, AFAIK.

Here is a comment by Pavel on it
Lt. Dan, Maffetone style running is a perfect complement to S&S 2.0.

Running 3/week is sufficient for building general resistance.
...
Lt. Dan, I suggest that you run first thing in the AM 3/week.
Source: How to Train Against a Virus | StrongFirst

And another one by Pavel
Here is the rule of thumb of aerobic training before or after strength training. if you are focusing on neural adaptations, do strength work first (or the day before) when you are fresh. If you are focusing on hypertrophy, you can lift after LSD (same or next day) and it is best to avoid LSD (except very easy work) for 48 hours".

"S&S is a program that combines various adaptations: strength, power, hypertrophy, endurance. As such, it can go either way."
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
As long as you have the capacity and recovery ability... Before is fine. After is fine. Either way try an separate them like AM/PM
Ideally do what you want to be your prime focus first.

I’m a bit of an endurance guy... I typically do ‘cardio’ first...
 

Bauer

Level 6 Valued Member
Btw, I like Al Ciampas approach to introducing running:
Base training builds both the foundational physiology and the ability to absorb higher intensity training.
The number one, and vitally important reason of adjusting running technique is to “decrease to the very minimum, the impact of the collision between your foot and the earth”.
A basic return-to-run template is designed to take you from the couch to running several times per week for 30 min each. It simply begins with a total of 30 minutes of locomotive activity (walking & running) that has you walking more in the beginning, and slowly increasing your time running while decreasing your time walking.
There are a lot of details to this. Very well worth the read!
 

Lotto

Level 1 Valued Member
If you are focusing on hypertrophy, you can lift after LSD (same or next day) and it is best to avoid LSD (except very easy work) for 48 hours".
Please excuse my ignorance but what does LSD stand for?
 
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offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
Lysergic Acid Diethylamide (jk)

Or... in our world Long Slow Distance. Basically doing some form of locomotive training (like running) over a longer duration and ‘slow’ pace. Typically at the aforementioned MAF heart rate which is basically AeT or lower

Some people (like me for instance) prefer the term LED... Long Easy Distance. Because ‘Easy’ does not necessarily have to imply Slow.
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
All you need to know is on Maffetone’s website. Then all you need is a HRM and the discipline to stay within the training range regardless of other variables.
 

banzaiengr

Level 6 Valued Member
Interesting topic, my first question would be what is your goal? What would you like the end result to be?

If you are doing S&S and going over your MAF heart rate during these sessions I'm not sure you will get the full benefit of running at MAF. I'm not sure on this and most likely @Al Ciampa could best explain it.

The swings done in S&S can most certainly be done in a MAF style. If your MAF number is 130 (180-age) and you can go down to a HR of say 115 before starting the next set of swings and not go over 130 during or immediately after your set of swings this would be a sample of a way to do that. In S&S with sets of 10 swings you may need to go pretty low before starting the next set.

Turkish Get Ups on the other hand would be a very hard movement to do and not go over MAF and get anything out of the movement. Just my opinion.

Next I would only run twice per week. Start out at 20-30 min on your first two runs. The next week add 5 min to your first run and keep the second run at 30. Add 5 min. each week to the long run working up to 80 minutes. Keep your second run at 30 minutes.

As far as doing both on the same day. It may be pretty hard to keep your HR under MAF if you do S&S first and then even a few hours later do your run. Basically you may have to run slower and not cover as much ground in the time allotted. Same goes with doing the run first and then later doing S&S. Personally if I were to do this I would do my swings first to generate as much power from the movement as possible without having my run possibly drained me before my swings.
 
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Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
As long as you have the capacity and recovery ability... Before is fine. After is fine. Either way try an separate them like AM/PM
Ideally do what you want to be your prime focus first.
That, and to carve in stone.
I do MAF runs 3-4 times a week, along with 4-5 strength trainings. A couple of hours is enough to recover after S&S to have a good maf run, longest runs are planned for off day.
 

mar2safety

Level 5 Valued Member
@John Locke. That's interesting. I had initially planned to do it after S+S. Why is it best to split the running from S+S?
I run after S&S all the time. Usually no more than 30 mins, and always at my MAF HR. I've had great success with doing S&S three times a week and adding a run after one of them (as long as the S&S session is Timeless).

If I'm doing S&S to the timed standard, I don't run after that.
 

Lotto

Level 1 Valued Member
@banzaiengr. I simply want to gain strength and hold a level of fitness that enables me to do my job as I get older. (climbing arborist) My body has a few miles on the clock but I wish to continue in the industry and help my company survive/prosper. A quote from S+S that resonates with me is "I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm good once as I ever was" This explains where I need to be.
As for running, I'm pretty accomplished and hold myself to sub 25 min 5k standard. I do this with my dog so never really count it as exercise. It is just part of my day, what I was noticing though if going out after S+S and doing a 10k 50 min run, I was not as smooth the next day with the bell. Thus I want to try Maffetone to compliment my bell efforts rather than detract from them.
 
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Don Fairbanks

SFG II
Certified Instructor
I've done MAF runs ( 30 mins ) after S&S type work outs and the runs felt great, super warmed up. I've done MAF the day after S&S type training and my hams were smoked, also OK since it was LED/LSD/MAF and worked some stiffness out. The day after could have been FPP and an hour walk as well. Experiment, see how you recover.
 

banzaiengr

Level 6 Valued Member
More interesting comments.

I do MAF runs 3-4 times a week, along with 4-5 strength trainings. A couple of hours is enough to recover after S&S to have a good maf run, longest runs are planned for off day.
Interesting, the reason to do MAF basically is to teach your body to use fat as it's main fuel source. So if you are going glycotic during your strength training sessions 4-5 time per week I would offer that most likely the only benefit you are getting from a MAF run is active recovery.


I run after S&S all the time. Usually no more than 30 mins, and always at my MAF HR. I've had great success with doing S&S three times a week and adding a run after one of them (as long as the S&S session is Timeless).

If I'm doing S&S to the timed standard, I don't run after that.
In my original reply I was being general. If you are in relatively good shape and young so your MAF HR is high, then staying at MAF wouldn't be much of an issue after an S&S session. I would be curious to know if you cover as much ground in 30 min. after an S&S session as you do if you are fresh? Understand the difference? I'm also curious as to how often you do a timed S&S session?


@banzaiengr. As for running, I'm pretty accomplished and hold myself to sub 25 min 5k standard. I do this with my dog so never really count it as exercise. It is just part of my day, what I was noticing though if going out after S+S and doing a 10k 50 min run, I was not as smooth the next day with the bell. Thus I want to try Maffetone to compliment my bell efforts rather than detract from them.
Then I'm curious like I was with Mar2Safety. How does doing S&S before a MAF run effect the results of your MAF run? As far as MAF complimenting your bell efforts, if you are going glycotic during your S&S session, then again, the only benefit your getting from a MAF run is active recovery. That's just my opinion.

So unless you are doing your bell work in an A+A fashion I really don't see the benefit of a MAF run other than active recovery. You aren't teaching your body to burn fat which is the real benefit of MAF in giving you more endurance.
 

Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
Interesting, the reason to do MAF basically is to teach your body to use fat as it's main fuel source
I mostly see it as a development of the basic cardio abilities. Using fat as a fuel is a nice bonus.

So if you are going glycotic during your strength training sessions 4-5 time per week
Not always, mostly no, my training is antiglycolitic with a slight touch of ~150ish bpm and 1/5 - 1/6 w/r. Sometimes I make an exception.

the only benefit you are getting from a MAF run is active recovery.
Not quite, like said above - cardiorespiratory system training, type 1 fibers development, moving pattern practice, small specific muscle/tendon development due to the use of a barefoot shoes. And lately I doubt that in the real time of need the active recovery is a benefit vs passive.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
It’s safe to say LED training has many benefits. Some are going to benefit the casual runner, and some the more advanced athlete.
The more advanced and competitive runner can’t get by on a diet of LED alone however...

And using fat as a fuel is more than just a nice bonus... :cool:
 
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