Barbell Marty Gallagher Deadlift

[54321]

After reading The purposeful Primitive by Marty Gallagher, and a few of his articles online, I noticed his deadlift style was more squat than hinge. He likes low hips for sumo and conventional. He sometimes referred to it as the Maryland style. I don’t really have any questions, just seeing if we can have some conversation about this style.

 

[Steve Freides]

I just had this conversation on the USPA group on Facebook.

For conventional, lower hips goes with more forward knees and allows more quad involvement in breaking the bar off the ground. It's using some push to start what is otherwise a pull, namely the deadlift. It's a choice. Such a deadlift is still very much a hinge and very much a pull, it's just that it's both push and pull at the start, so if we want to be picky, it's not a "pure" hinge. When I made this change to my deadlift a few years ago, I began setting lifetime PR's in my early 60's, and when I tried not to use it any longer, my deadlift numbers went down, so I'm back to using it, and I give thanks to some of my StrongFirst colleagues for pointing out the error of my ways to me.

Sumo is a different thing entirely, and low hips are very much better. If you're a high-hip sumo puller, you might try switching to conventional.

-S-

 

[Antti]

I'm not sure I'd really call his style a squatty style, even if he does speak along those lines. It's more along taking the hips as back as they go.

I see a lot of lifters, especially less proficient ones, try to really squat the deadlift and have their knees way above the bar and thus often also the bar far away from their legs. That's a squat style in my books, and it's not what Gallagher refers to.

"The Cassidy-Chaillet school of conventional deadlifting swears allegiance to the straight-line pull. Everything flows from this core contention. To pull upward in a straight line necessitates vertical shins. You can’t pull straight up if your knees are six-inches in front of the barbell at launch."

Then again, the powerlifting squats of old, and suits, were very much done with vertical shins. So calling it a squat style does work in that context. Still, there is an even squattier style to deadlift.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Marty Gallagher...I noticed his deadlift style was more squat than hinge. He likes low hips for sumo and conventional.

Low Hips

Marty is a smart guy. However, Lower Hips for the majority of lifters is contraindicated in either the Conventional or Sumo Deadlift.

Higher Hip Position

A Higher Hip Position is more effective.

A Higher Hip Position simulates a Quarter Squat. You can Quarter Squat more than you can Parallel Squat.

Some Deadlifters may drop down into a lower position, prior to driving the weight off the floor, then drive up, engaging the load in the Higher Hip/Quarter Squat Position.

The lifter may appear to be starting with a Lower Hip drive but that isn't the case.

The engagement/contraction in driving the weight off floor is actually in the Higher Hip Position.

Conventional Deadlifts

There are two different types of Conventional Deadlfts

1) Olympic Squat Style Deadlifts

In this movement, the focus is on positioning the bar correctly for the Second Pull.

This requires the back maintains a netural spine position to optomize the Second Pull.

The position for the Second Pull require that the Legs drive the weight off the floor, ensuring a more neutral spine.

The Olympic Squat Deadlift is more like Leg Pressing the weight off the floor to the knees.

2) Powerlifting Back DeadliftIng

Research by Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD Exercise Biomechanics, former Powerlifter) determined that the Muscle Firing Sequence is...

Back > Legs > Back

The back breaks the weight off the floor with some assistance from the Legs (Quads).

It is a "Bang-Bang" Sequence with the back inititating the drive and then the legs kicking in to assist.

McLaughlin's Research

Nutrition & Health OnLine Magazine

Nutrition & Health OnLine Magazine

www.nhomag.com

This is an excellent article by Davey Dunn that breaks down McLaughlin's Biomechanical Research on the Conventional Powerlifting and Sumo Deadlift. It is based on McLaughlin's article published in Powerlifting USA, years ago, on the Biomechanics of the Powerlifts. I have those articles. ("Biomechancis Of Powerlifting--The Deadlift," Dr Tom McLaughlin-Director/Biomechanics Labratory/Auburn University/PLUSA 7/81)

The "Three Distinct Phases of Muscle Involvement" in the Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift

1) "...The initial drive is done primarily by the back (erector spinae) and not the legs."

"...Research done by Dr. Tom McLaughlin.1 McLaughlin compared the deadlift styles of top powerlifters at the time such as Jon Kuc, Bill Kazmaier, and Vince Anello. His results showed that all the lifters had similar styles exhibiting back extension at the beginning of the lift. McLaughlin felt that the reason for this is because the total force of the legs is inadequate at the start of the deadlift for most individuals.:

2) "The second distinct phase of the deadlift begins shortly after the bar breaks the floor."

"As the initial pull from the back begins to lessen, the legs begin to take over. Knee extension and hip extension account for most of the movement until the bar reaches the knees. The primary muscles involved in this phase are the gluteals and hamstrings in hip extension and the quadriceps in knee extension."

3) "The third and final phase is the lockout."

"As the bar passes the knees, the effect of the legs decreases and the lower back again becomes the primary force."

"I was talking to Lamar Gant this week here at Auburn, and he said that he felt years ago his leg drive was strong off the floor, but in recent years he felt his back pulling more at the start. This is probably a reason for the recent craze over stiff-leg deadlifts. They simply develop more back strength for the starting position." ("Biomechancis Of Powerlifting--The Deadlift," Dr Tom McLaughlin-Director/Biomechanics Labratory/Auburn University/PLUSA 7/81)

Olympic Squat Deadlift Examples

1) Steve Freides

Steve successfully uses this style. As I remember, Steve had some type of back injury year ago.

That may be why his Deadlift technique is perform with an Olympic Squat Deadlift, driving the weight off the floor with his Legs.

However, maybe this is a more natural movement for Steve, where he is stonger.

Anna C

Anna's performs an Olympic Squat Deadlift.

Commonality

1) Conventional Powerlifting Deadlifter

Most of these lifter who breaking the weight off the floor with the Back > Leg > Back method, blow the weight off the floor.

The Sticking Point for these Powerlifter is in the knee area. That based on anedcotal data and supported by research; "Kinematic Analysis of the Powerlifting Style Squat and the Conventional Deadlift During Competition", Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: December 2009 - Volume 23 - Issue 9 - p 2574-2580

2I Olympic Squat Style Deadlifters

Using the Legs to drive the weight off the floor, is a slow, tedious process.

Steve and Anna's post of their Olympic Squat Style Deadlifts demonstrate this.

However, once the Bar reaches around the knee area, Steve and Anna's Power dramatically increases.

Anna performs a lot of Olympic Movements. Thus, the Olympic Squat Style Deadlift is the most effective for that.

However, from viewing Anna's Leg Strength in her Olympic Squat Style Deadlifts, my observation is that she'd drive more weight with a Sumo Deadlift.

Caveats of The Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift

One of the interesting caveats of the Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift is the Upper Back Rounding during the "Pull".

Anecotdal data demonstrate that many Conventional Powerlifting Deadlifter have some Upper Back Rounding.

Upper Back Rounding isn't a issue. Lower Back Rounding is a huge issue.

Reaserch by Dr Bret Contreras, determined that Upper Back Rounding enabled lifter to keep the bar closer to the Body's Center of Gravity; decreasing the Torque.

Research by McLaughlin, noted in Davy Dunn's article...

"The studies show that for every inch the bar swings out during the lift the effective load is actually increased 25 percent."

400 lb Deadlift Torque Example

That means, if a lifter allowed the bar to drift an inch farther away from the Body's Center of Gravity. essentially the Bar Load would increase to 500 lbs. A lifter would need to exert over 500 lbs of Force to pull up a 400 lb Deadlift!

To reiterate, Upper Back Rounding ensures a Conventional Powerlifting Deadlifter is able to keep the bar in closer to the Body Center of Gravity. Most Conventional Powerlift Deadlifters do it without thinking about it.

 

[acutaiar12]

In my experience, moving my feet in closer and lowering my hips a little took my deadlift from 150kg to 175kg.

I, personally, felt much stronger and more powerful that way.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

"The Cassidy-Chaillet school of conventional deadlifting swears allegiance to the straight-line pull."

Straight Line Pull

This is an not an optimal method.

In the Deadlift, the Bar needs to be pulled back on top of you; you need to drag it up you shins and thighs.

Doing so...

1) Ensures the lifter is pulling the bar back as close to the Body's Center of Gravity as possible.

2) Dragging the bar up the shins and thighs, to some degree, is similar to using a Smith Machine.

The Smith Machine allows more weight to be moved in most exercises. That because it takes the Stabilizer Muscles out of the equation.

Thus, a lifters shins and thighs act as the "Guide Rods". The bar provides some support, which helps to drag more weight up.

In a technically well perfomed Deadlift, it should feel like the bar is gliding up.

You can’t pull straight up if your knees are six-inches in front of the barbell at launch."

The Quagmire of Pulling The Bar From Shins Off The Floor

To reiterate, pulling straight up isn't optimal.

The distance from foot placement and knee postion to the bar is a bit of a Black Hole.

The distance is depenent on how a lifter is built; Arm Length, Torso Length, Femer Length, Shin Length, Height, Weight, etc.

Thus, it is really hard to stipulate foot stance and distance from the Bar in a Deadlift.

With that said, with any Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift, the bar needs to be drug up the shins and thighs and pulled back; keeping it as close as possible to the Body's Center of Gravity as possible.

Tom Purvis' Anthropometry Squat and Deadlift Podcast

Tom Purvis has has some good video presentations regarding the Variance of Technique in the Squat and Deadlift with lifters with different body structures.

Purvis has a very cool stick figure which allows him to change the body sturctures; demonstrating how lifters with differnt body structures need to Squat or Deadlift for optimal performance.

 

[maceb4]

Low Hips

Marty is a smart guy. However, Lower Hips for the majority of lifters is contraindicated in either the Conventional or Sumo Deadlift.

Higher Hip Position

A Higher Hip Position is more effective.

A Higher Hip Position simulates a Quarter Squat. You can Quarter Squat more than you can Parallel Squat.

Some Deadlifters may drop down into a lower position, prior to driving the weight off the floor, then drive up, engaging the load in the Higher Hip/Quarter Squat Position.

The lifter may appear to be starting with a Lower Hip drive but that isn't the case.

The engagement/contraction in driving the weight off floor is actually in the Higher Hip Position.

Conventional Deadlifts

There are two different types of Conventional Deadlfts

1) Olympic Squat Style Deadlifts

In this movement, the focus is on positioning the bar correctly for the Second Pull.

This requires the back maintains a netural spine position to optomize the Second Pull.

The position for the Second Pull require that the Legs drive the weight off the floor, ensuring a more neutral spine.

The Olympic Squat Deadlift is more like Leg Pressing the weight off the floor to the knees.

2) Powerlifting Back DeadliftIng

Research by Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD Exercise Biomechanics, former Powerlifter) determined that the Muscle Firing Sequence is...

Back > Legs > Back

The back breaks the weight off the floor with some assistance from the Legs (Quads).

It is a "Bang-Bang" Sequence with the back inititating the drive and then the legs kicking in to assist.

McLaughlin's Research

Nutrition & Health OnLine Magazine

Nutrition & Health OnLine Magazine

www.nhomag.com

This is an excellent article by Davey Dunn that breaks down McLaughlin's Biomechanical Research on the Conventional Powerlifting and Sumo Deadlift. It is based on McLaughlin's article published in Powerlifting USA, years ago, on the Biomechanics of the Powerlifts. I have those articles. ("Biomechancis Of Powerlifting--The Deadlift," Dr Tom McLaughlin-Director/Biomechanics Labratory/Auburn University/PLUSA 7/81)

The "Three Distinct Phases of Muscle Involvement" in the Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift

1) "...The initial drive is done primarily by the back (erector spinae) and not the legs."

"...Research done by Dr. Tom McLaughlin.1 McLaughlin compared the deadlift styles of top powerlifters at the time such as Jon Kuc, Bill Kazmaier, and Vince Anello. His results showed that all the lifters had similar styles exhibiting back extension at the beginning of the lift. McLaughlin felt that the reason for this is because the total force of the legs is inadequate at the start of the deadlift for most individuals.:

2) "The second distinct phase of the deadlift begins shortly after the bar breaks the floor."

"As the initial pull from the back begins to lessen, the legs begin to take over. Knee extension and hip extension account for most of the movement until the bar reaches the knees. The primary muscles involved in this phase are the gluteals and hamstrings in hip extension and the quadriceps in knee extension."

3) "The third and final phase is the lockout."

"As the bar passes the knees, the effect of the legs decreases and the lower back again becomes the primary force."

"I was talking to Lamar Gant this week here at Auburn, and he said that he felt years ago his leg drive was strong off the floor, but in recent years he felt his back pulling more at the start. This is probably a reason for the recent craze over stiff-leg deadlifts. They simply develop more back strength for the starting position." ("Biomechancis Of Powerlifting--The Deadlift," Dr Tom McLaughlin-Director/Biomechanics Labratory/Auburn University/PLUSA 7/81)

Olympic Squat Deadlift Examples

1) Steve Freides

Steve successfully uses this style. As I remember, Steve had some type of back injury year ago.

That may be why his Deadlift technique is perform with an Olympic Squat Deadlift, driving the weight off the floor with his Legs.

However, maybe this is a more natural movement for Steve, where he is stonger.

Anna C

Anna's performs an Olympic Squat Deadlift.

Commonality

1) Conventional Powerlifting Deadlifter

Most of these lifter who breaking the weight off the floor with the Back > Leg > Back method, blow the weight off the floor.

The Sticking Point for these Powerlifter is in the knee area. That based on anedcotal data and supported by research; "Kinematic Analysis of the Powerlifting Style Squat and the Conventional Deadlift During Competition", Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: December 2009 - Volume 23 - Issue 9 - p 2574-2580

2I Olympic Squat Style Deadlifters

Using the Legs to drive the weight off the floor, is a slow, tedious process.

Steve and Anna's post of their Olympic Squat Style Deadlifts demonstrate this.

However, once the Bar reaches around the knee area, Steve and Anna's Power dramatically increases.

Anna performs a lot of Olympic Movements. Thus, the Olympic Squat Style Deadlift is the most effective for that.

However, from viewing Anna's Leg Strength in her Olympic Squat Style Deadlifts, my observation is that she'd drive more weight with a Sumo Deadlift.

Caveats of The Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift

One of the interesting caveats of the Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift is the Upper Back Rounding during the "Pull".

Anecotdal data demonstrate that many Conventional Powerlifting Deadlifter have some Upper Back Rounding.

Upper Back Rounding isn't a issue. Lower Back Rounding is a huge issue.

Reaserch by Dr Bret Contreras, determined that Upper Back Rounding enabled lifter to keep the bar closer to the Body's Center of Gravity; decreasing the Torque.

Research by McLaughlin, noted in Davy Dunn's article...

"The studies show that for every inch the bar swings out during the lift the effective load is actually increased 25 percent."

400 lb Deadlift Torque Example

That means, if a lifter allowed the bar to drift an inch farther away from the Body's Center of Gravity. essentially the Bar Load would increase to 500 lbs. A lifter would need to exert over 500 lbs of Force to pull up a 400 lb Deadlift!

To reiterate, Upper Back Rounding ensures a Conventional Powerlifting Deadlifter is able to keep the bar in closer to the Body Center of Gravity. Most Conventional Powerlift Deadlifters do it without thinking about it.

Really liked this post. I switched to sumo a few months back and am approaching a 405 deadlift, beltless, for the first time ever. The thing I equate to my improved pulling is the leverages i have, anatomically, lend to a higher hip start off the floor. I just hit 360 lbs for 5-3-2, no belt at a bodyweight 20lbs lighter than I was at the time of my all time beset DL(440lbs, conventional with belt.) Really digging the sumo technique, hips a little high at the point the weight leaves the floor...

 

[John Spezzano]

I'm not sure I'd really call his style a squatty style, even if he does speak along those lines. It's more along taking the hips as back as they go.

I see a lot of lifters, especially less proficient ones, try to really squat the deadlift and have their knees way above the bar and thus often also the bar far away from their legs. That's a squat style in my books, and it's not what Gallagher refers to.

"The Cassidy-Chaillet school of conventional deadlifting swears allegiance to the straight-line pull. Everything flows from this core contention. To pull upward in a straight line necessitates vertical shins. You can’t pull straight up if your knees are six-inches in front of the barbell at launch."

Then again, the powerlifting squats of old, and suits, were very much done with vertical shins. So calling it a squat style does work in that context. Still, there is an even squattier style to deadlift.

I haven't read "Purposeful Primitive" since it came out but referring to shin alignment and the position of the bar relative to the shins, I recall reading Gallagher say in that book that for every inch out of plumb the bar is from your shoulders when it leaves the ground is something like a virtual extra 25#. Inefficient, to say the least.

I am a "sumo-ventional" DL'er with relatively high hips when the bar leaves the ground. It works for me. But I only DL with general strength goals. I'm not a competitive lifter like @Steve Freides where maximizing your technique to get every ounce off the ground that you can is paramount.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Gallagher say in that book that for every inch out of plumb the bar is from your shoulders when it leaves the ground is something like a virtual extra 25#.

That Increases Torque

Yes, the farther away the bar is from the Body's Center or Gravity (COG) the greater the load of the bar weight is essentially increase; much greater than 25 lbs, dependent on the distance.

THE DEADLIFT: A SCIENTIFIC ANALYSIS

Nutrition & Health OnLine Magazine

Nutrition & Health OnLine Magazine

www.nhomag.com

As per McLaughlin's (PhD Bio-Mechanics/former Powerlifter) research.."

"The studies show that for every inch the bar swings out during the lift the effective load is actually increased 25 percent."

400 lb Deadlift Example

That means if a lifter allowed the bar to drift an inch farther out from the body with a 400 lb Deadlift, the lifter would have to produce 500 lbs of force to complete the lift.

Dr Bret Contreras Round Back Conventional Deadlift

A Strong Case For the Rounded Back Deadlift

Always pull with a neutral spine. Well, maybe not always. Info here.

www.t-nation.com

Contreras determined that one of the reasons that many Conventional Powerlifting Deadlifters Round their Upper Back in a Max Effort is that it enables them to keep the bar closer to the Body's Center of Gravity. These Powerlifters inadvertently choose the bar path that ensure a true Max Deadlift.

Bio-Mechanical Research on the Bench Press by McLaughlin determined that lifters like Mike Bridges (former World Record Holder in the Bench Press) increased their Bench Press (as well as other lifts), not by getting stronger but by slightly modifying their Bar Path.

Metaphorically speaking, it's similar to climbing a mountain and finding and easier path to the top. It is easier to transverse a mountain by zigzagging it, changing the angle of ascent, than climbing straight up it.

That is of the reasons that it make no sense to pull a Deadlift up in a Straight Line nor Bench Press it up in a Straight Line.

Secondly, the body doesn't moving in Straight Line. There is usually some variance in the angle the bar is moved. Thus, individual who believe that they are moving the bar in a Straight Line are deluding themselves.

The Upper Back Rounding minimized the Torque, maintaining the back in a much stronger position, ensuring less stress.

With that in mind, let's look at Auxiliary Deadlift Exercises that allow you to increase the workload on the Posterior Chain without increasing the Weight.

Exercises Where Torque Is Your Friend

1) Good Mornings

This movement is performed by bending forward; moving the bar/weight farther away from your Body's Center of Gravity.

The Good Morning, in part increases the workload, when bending forward, increasing the Torque.

The Good Morning's has an "Ascending Strength Curve" that is the same as the Deadlift; hard at the bottom and easier at the top.

The Good Morning engages the same Posterior Chain Muscles as the Deadlift. Thus, building strength in the Good Morning carries over to the Deadlift.

Steve Freides' Zercher Deadlift is essentially a Good Morning with the bar in a lower position.

2) 45 Degree Back Raise/Hip Extensions

This amounts to being a Good Morning from a different angle. Bending forward, farther away from the Body's Center of Gravity, as well, increasing the loading.

However, this movement has a "Bell Shaped Strength Curve".

The loading (Torque) is less at the start and end of the Range of The Movement.

The loading (where the Torque is the highest) is in the Middle Range of it.

Thus, for individuals who have a Sticking Point in the Knee Area of the Deadlift, the 45 Degree Back Raise/Hip Extension addresses that issue.

3) 90 Degree, Parallel Back Raise/Hip Extension

This movement has a "Descending Strength Curve"; easy at the beginning and middle, and hard at the top.

For Deadlifters who have a hard time finishing the top end of "The Pull", this movement will address it.

These Auxiliary Deadlift Exercises allow you to overload the Posterior Chain with Lighter Weight by increasing the Torque; bending forward, moving the bar/weight farther away from your Body's Center of Gravity.

 

[ANoorda]

I was recently on the phone with Marty and he advised me to really squat the bar in my deadlift. I pull sumo. He said that if I really get my squat up, my deadlift will follow because it’s just a squat with the bar in your hands. Add some bench and over head press and you’re golden.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I was recently on the phone with Marty and he advised me to really squat the bar in my deadlift. I pull sumo. He said that if I really get my squat up, my deadlift will follow because it’s just a squat with the bar in your hands. Add some bench and over head press and you’re golden.

Sumo Deadlift

The Sumo Deadift to some extent replicates a Wide Stanace Powerlifting Squat.

Since most Wide Stance Powerlifting Squatter's traditional posses more Leg than Back Strength.

Many of those who are Wide Stance Powerlifting Squatters also perform a Wide Stance Sumo Deadlift because...

The Sumo Deadlift Is A Quad Dominate Movement

Leg Drive break the weight off the foo.

Essentially, the weight is Leg Pressed off the floor or moves in a similar way to a Wide Stance Powerlifting Squat.

Thus, there is going to be more carry over for a Wide Stance Powerlifting Squatter who Sumo Deadlifts and vise versa.

However, the Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift is a completely different animal; which means another training approach is required.

Quarter Squat Deadlift Position

Regardless of if one performs a Sumo or Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift, the drive off the floor need to be initiated from a Quarter Squat Position. That because your stronger in a Quarter Squat than a Parrallel Squat.

Sumo Auxiliary Deadlift Exercises

1) High Bar Quarter Squats With a Wide Stance out of a Power Rack.

2) Leg Presses

3) Front Quarter Squats out of Power Rack

3) Hack Squat

The commonality of the above exercises is that they are Quad Dominate, which the Sumo Deadlift is.

 

[John Spezzano]

Sumo Deadlift

The Sumo Deadift to some extent replicates a Wide Stanace Powerlifting Squat.

Since most Wide Stance Powerlifting Squatter's traditional posses more Leg than Back Strength.

Many of those who are Wide Stance Powerlifting Squatters also perform a Wide Stance Sumo Deadlift because...

The Sumo Deadlift Is A Quad Dominate Movement

Leg Drive break the weight off the foo.

Essentially, the weight is Leg Pressed off the floor or moves in a similar way to a Wide Stance Powerlifting Squat.

Thus, there is going to be more carry over for a Wide Stance Powerlifting Squatter who Sumo Deadlifts and vise versa.

However, the Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift is a completely different animal; which means another training approach is required.

Quarter Squat Deadlift Position

Regardless of if one performs a Sumo or Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift, the drive off the floor need to be initiated from a Quarter Squat Position. That because your stronger in a Quarter Squat than a Parrallel Squat.

Sumo Auxiliary Deadlift Exercises

1) High Bar Quarter Squats With A High Bar Squat and Wide Stance out of a Power Rack.

2) Leg Presses

3) Front Quarter Squats out of Power Rack

3) Hack Squat

The commonality of the above exercises is that they are Quad Dominate, which the Sumo Deadlift is.

Love Marty's stuff. One of the coaches at my gym (before I closed it last year) was a spectacular Sumo puller. He could pull 600# @ 148. Strong kid.

I'm more of a "sumo-ventional" guy.

 

[MikeTheBear]

'm more of a "sumo-ventional" guy.

Are you referring to a narrow sumo, aka semi-sumo, aka squat-stance sumo? This is my preferred stance as well. I place my legs slightly wider than my squat stance (so not a "true" squat-stance sumo) but no where near as wide as a true sumo.

If anyone is interested I can elaborate as to why I prefer this stance.

 

[Hung]

If anyone is interested I can elaborate as to why I prefer this stance.

yes please.

I place my legs slightly wider than my squat stance (so not a "true" squat-stance sumo) but no where near as wide as a true sumo.

I have the same stance, I call it frog stance

 

[MikeTheBear]

yes please.

Be careful what you wish for, I can write all day.

1. I have short legs, a long torso, and average to shortish arms. I've deadlifted conventional before, and I don't have a problem with the first rep. It's doing more than one rep that feels awkward.
2. I've decided not to be stubborn and listen to people who know more than I do. In this case I saw a video with Max Aita and Chad Wesley Smith where they discussed training for the "supertotal" which is getting a total in both powerlifting and Olympic weightlifting. I thin Max is very knowledgeable about weightlifting and I respect his opinion. He recommended that weightlifters transitioning to powerlifting who want to continue weightlifting should pull sumo to avoid "confusion" between the weightlifting pull and the deadlift pull. Max is right. I don't care what anyone says, the conventional powerlifting deadlift pull and the weightlifting pull are different. In my case, I'm so accustomed to setting up for the clean that this is what I use for the DL, and it's just a mess.
3. Semi-sumo just feels better. I can now hear all the false macho guys yelling "Oh, this special snowflake is basing his deadlift on his feelings." D*mn right I am. I have a bad back. I agree 100% with the idea that strength training helps a bad back. But I've been dealing with my back for 15 years. I know what works and what doesn't. If using a stance that "feels better" results in a lower risk of re-injury, yeah, that's what I'm going to use.

But isn't sumo "cheating?" No more so than using a big arch or a low bar position on the squat is cheating. The one valid argument on "cheating" that I heard came from Alex Bromley who is an amateur strongman competitor and has a Youtube channel. He said that the purpose of the deadlift is to strengthen the lower back, and that back in the day, the purpose of the deadlift was to test lower back strength. I agree 100%. This is why my main strength move for the lower back is the Romanian deadlift. I feel I have more control when I start the lift at the top and I can use a longer range of motion. I would also argue that given my shortish arms, the range of motion for my semi-sumo stance is not that much less than a conventional DL for a person with "normal" proportions, Until the powerlifting federations change the rules, the sumo deadlift remains a legal lift in competition.

Finally, I've read articles by Bill Starr on the sumo deadlift and he thinks it's a great variation to add to anyone's training. In particular, he likes how it works the adductor magnus muscle. He did mention that if someone's pull off the floor is exclusively sumo they should supplement with another lower back exercise such as the Romanian deadlift, What what do you know I already do that.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

I'm so accustomed to setting up for the clean that this is what I use for the DL, and it's just a mess.

I find this an interesting observation as I've been using the same set-up for my clean as for my deadlift and my DL feels stronger for it.

It could be that my lower back and legs have both gotten stronger from practising the O-lifts and that my best tactic to set a competitive max in my deadlift would be to shift to a more hip+back dominant style but the clean style deadlift certainly works well enough for the occasions where I want to test myself.

I do enjoy training sumo as well; nothing seems to hit the glutes quite as hard and I think any lifter who excludes the sumo deadlift from their training should have a really good reason to or they're missing out.

 

[MikeTheBear]

I find this an interesting observation as I've been using the same set-up for my clean as for my deadlift and my DL feels stronger for it.

Same for me. I suppose my characterization of my setup as a "mess" was a bit of an overstatement. Setting up for the first rep is fine, but it starts to feel awkward when I do reps. I suppose I could reset each rep.

It could be that my lower back and legs have both gotten stronger from practising the O-lifts and that my best tactic to set a competitive max in my deadlift would be to shift to a more hip+back dominant style but the clean style deadlift certainly works well enough for the occasions where I want to test myself.

The Olympic lifts are quad dominant so you probably have strong quads. In the clean I tend to drop my hips fairly low. I tried doing a conventional DL with higher hips but it doesn't feel as strong as setting up with lower hips so my DL just ends up being a clean pull. This just tells me I need to strengthen my back.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

Same for me. I suppose my characterization of my setup as a "mess" was a bit of an overstatement. Setting up for the first rep is fine, but it starts to feel awkward when I do reps. I suppose I could reset each rep.

It feels to me that there are less 'moving parts' to a standard conventional deadlift (compared to a clean deadlift) so it makes sense to keep it simple when doing reps.

 

[John Spezzano]

Are you referring to a narrow sumo, aka semi-sumo, aka squat-stance sumo? This is my preferred stance as well. I place my legs slightly wider than my squat stance (so not a "true" squat-stance sumo) but no where near as wide as a true sumo.

If anyone is interested I can elaborate as to why I prefer this stance.

Yes, I use a wider than normal squat stance. But also, my torso is not as upright as a true Sumo puller, nor is it at as low of an angle as a conventional. I basically use a wider stance with a more upright torso than a conventional lifter.

I'm not sure if that cleared anything up. HAHA!