all posts post new thread

Old Forum "Master Switch" enzyme

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Mattsirpeace

Level 4 Valued Member
It turns out that the sequence of cellular events that leads to bigger muscles is determined in part by the same "master switch"--an enzyme called AMP kinase--that controls adaptations for better endurance.  But you can't have it both ways:  the switch is set to either "bigger muscles" or to "better endurance," and the body can't instantly change from one setting to the other.  How you start your workout determines which way the switch will be set for the session.

from the book "Which Comes First, Cardio or Weights?" by Alex Hutchinson, Ph.d.

Combining strength and endurance training in one workout is an especially bad idea.*  The research is clear: you have nothing to gain and a lot to lose.  A mere 2-mile run  after a strength workout reduces the strength gains by 10%!  If you are confused about the goal of your workout, so will be your body.

Only very easy endurance training--any type of endurance--is acceptable on the same day or the day after a hypertrophy workout.

Pavel, page 217 of Easy Strength
 
What does this mean for the ROP? You've got C&P ladders (strength) followed by swings (endurance) in a single workout if I've understood the instructions properly.
 
Hi John,

I started this thread for a few reasons.  Some people on the forum know how to read science and can tell us if this master switch enzyme is real and if it matters.  I also had the same question about intense cardio.  The ROP is just 2 - 12 minutes of hard swings after strength training.  This is hardly "endurance."  I get the sense that "cardio" really should be split into two categories, or at least a spectrum.  "Intense" for actual heart muscle hypertrophy, and "endurance" for the invisible mojo that lets you go all day.  I'm thinking that intense "goes with" strength, and that ETK is a fundamentally sound program.

Everybody has to compromise and combine strength and cardio, even those at the far ends of the spectrum.  Elite or lazy, it seems like a bad idea to shoot yourself in the foot by sending mixed messages to your organism.  Let's list the possibilities, from "combined" to "separate."

1)  A one-hour combined session, lifting weights while moving fast to keep an elevated heart rate.  You know what I'm talking about, and how it just doesn't work.

2)  Strength followed by intense cardio.  ETK.  This has room for endurance on variety days.

3)  Concurrent training, weekly cycle.  The strength day needs to be separated as much as possible from the LSD day.  Intervals go after strength.  Still ETK.

4)   2-week blocks.  Pavel explains this in Return of the Kettlebell.  Maybe the ultimate system of juggling adaptations without losing either.

5)  Sequential training.  You get to focus on one quality, but it's the whack-a-mole problem; gain one one, lose the other.  I personally have settled into this pattern.  I lift in the winter and have endurance fun outside in the summer.  OK for me since I don't have any need to assemble an awesome combined performance like a fighter.

6)  Multiyear, lifetime shift in priorities.  Guys, if you got strong during your testosterone window, the rest is just coasting.

I would love comments & insights.  Just tossing my thoughts out there.
 
It's like the kettlebell WTH effect, do you need to know why something happens, or that you know which "buttons" to push to get a specific effect?

I don't mean any disrespect by that either, just my personal opinion is that one can delve too deeply into how the body works and lose sight of what actually works, and its usually the basics drilled to perfection that works.

ETK works, not necessarily for muscle gains but for strength, certainly.

Combined strength and cardio can work, but is dependent on the trainee, and optimally will be split into different sessions.

It's like you mentioned Matt, it probably belongs on a spectrum of some sort. You can either lift weights a lot times, or lift a lot of weight a couple of times, which doesn't necessarily answer how GS or strongsport lifters can put up some huge numbers, or a human performing huge work or a huge human performing work, like some footballers and the bigger triathletes.

There's a lot of variables and therefore compromises involved, but I can imagine Dan John asking, "What's your goal?".

But I wonder, how does the body determine if you're starting a strength session, a hypertrophy session, or you're just doing hard work in your yard? Where exactly is the point it switches toward strength or cardio?
 
Hi,

I would love more answers on this thread, or on Chris Hansen's "Running for Health" thread.  If strength + intervals is a good combo, or if endurance + intervals is a good combo.
 
What confuses me then is ETK: If you do endurance-training on your variety days, your body gets a different switch each day. Then you're working against your body according to this theory, am I right?

I have done a few days of 100+ reps of swings. That's endurance I think. But I'm stronger now then before I started them. My strength has gained more than I have lost. I have done breathing ladders if that helps to know. What do you think of this then, Matt?
 
Hi Siemen,

I'm not a coach.  I do remember lifting followed by running, and improving.  I just think in hindsight this wasn't ideal.  A very common time-tested approach is to lift one day, jog the next.  100 swings goes pretty fast.  If you do ten reps at the top of every minute, that's ten minutes.  Or ten reps every thirty seconds is five minutes.  This intense cardio is very different than jogging.  What I am thinking, and asking, is if strength followed by intense cardio is correct in the sense of sending a clear message to your body.  I keep thinking the ROP template is about as good as it gets.  If someone needs to train strength, intervals, and LSD concurrently, just do your long day as separate as possible from your heavy day.  On the other hand, if you have the luxury of sequential training, the message to your body will be even more clear.
 
From Joe:

Matt, I think I see what you’re trying to figure out based on this and another thread. It seems like you’re wanting to maximize the effects of both strength training and cardio and are concerned that by mixing the two incorrectly you might be sabotaging your efforts for one or even both. Is that right?

From a heart health point of view, it seems that most heart attacks are the result of the heart’s inability to keep up with a sudden increase in demand. Wouldn’t intervals be more conducive to improving this ability than steady state cardio? I would think so. I know that both types of training have somewhat differing effects on the heart (i.e. either greater chamber size changes or muscle size/density changes), but it all boils down to what do you want your heart to be ready for? Not only that, but how do you want to spend your time?

I don’t know if there is a “right” mix and I think it probably has a lot to do with your body type. However, intervals have been shown to increase fat loss and VO2 max with less total time of exercise and less calories expended during the session itself. At least those are the results from the two articles below. For me, I want to save my joints, so I’ll sprint in the grass versus pound the pavement any day.

1. Tabata, I., Irishawa, K., Kuzaki, M., Nishimura, K., Ogita, F., and Miyachi, M., Metabolic Profile of High-Intensity Intermittent Exercises. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 29(3), 390-395, 1997).

2. Tremblay, A., J. Simoneau, and C. Bouchard, Impact of Exercise Intensity on Body Fatness and Skeletal Muscle Metabolism. Metabolism.43:814-818, 1994.

<!-- .bbp-reply-content --><!-- #post-7742 --><!-- .bbp-body -->


Author
Posts
 
There's a few parallel threads about combining strength, intervals, and endurance.  Rob has a great new one modestly labeled "My uninformed views on running"  His older one is called "Running and lifting -- great article."  It's about Alex Viada, who combines marathons, cycling, triathlons, and powerlifting!  www.atlargenutrition.com

Pavel has relevant sections beginning on pages 115 and 216 of Easy Strength.

I have an older post called "Mel Siff on PHA."  Basically that circuit training is a poor choice.

I'm just boiling it all down to a couple of simple bro guidelines and tossing them out there for forum members to approve or dissect:

1)  Strength followed by intervals is good.  Straight out of The Russian Kettlebell Challenge and Enter The Kettlebell.  Whether we look at hormones, energy pathways, or the actual heart muscle, strength and intervals "go together."

2)  Keep strength and endurance separate.  Same day is bad, next day is also bad.  If you are training both qualities, have your LSD day separate from your hardest lifting day.

Let's take a generic bro who exercises just for the hell of it and likes a mix of strength and endurance.  He has no sport to compete in and no special skill to practice.  No heart health issues.  He has no orthopedic issues to prevent him from doing lifting, intervals, or endurance.  A tough but achievable goal would be to press the 48 kg kettlebell, and later that same year run a marathon.

Pretty simple.  Just do a couple of hypertrophy cycles in the winter, ETK in the spring, and transition to LSD in the summer.  Good?
 
Matt -

I just listened to an old interview I had that Geoff Neupert did with John Brookfield and it immediately made me think of this thread. John went into how the ropes are different than intervals because there is constant motion and you don't rest until you're done, whereas intervals give you the programmed recovery interspersed with the activity  He also went into the mental aspect of the ropes versus kettlebells, which I found enlightening and being that he did 302 snatches with the 24 in 10 min, 198 with the 32 in 10 min, and 1200 with the 24 in an hour, he's a guy I'd listen to on the subject.   He appeared to be advocating using the ropes after strength training, which I would find more analogous to LSD after strength (because it is constant and uses aerobic pathways) vs intervals. Of course John is a specimen without equal and has a point of reference that I probably never would have, but I thought it was worth mentioning and asking if you've seen any of his stuff and given it any thought.

With numbers like his and the conditioning needed for them, I don't see the point in running anything over 2 miles. Like I always say, "the first guy to run a marathon died". Doesn't sound like a good thing to me, but I've hated LSD forever, so I'm obviously biased.
 
John East,

Swing workouts aren't "cardio."  Swing workouts are strength, longer.  Swing workouts are strength endured.

Read "Return of the Kettlebell" if you haven't already for more on the relationship between strength and endurance in a single lifting program.  Read it even if you have no intention of following its program.

JMO.

-S-
 
Hi all,

The training John Brookfield and Bud Jeffries are doing is so far out I can't even wrap my mind around it.  It sure makes a joke out of my desire to put things in neat categories.  Swings are hard to categorize, but I would say that if you are doing them hardstyle with a substantial bell, they are distinctly "lifting weights", with every rep as serious as a deadlift.

Pavel is pretty consistent in his books about keeping the session under 45 minutes, or at least under an hour.  I imagine his comments on hormones, enzymes, glycogen in ROTK apply equally to say, presses followed by swings.  Or any strength session with a short intense finisher.  Incline treadmill running or sled pushing would be OK, as long as it's hard and brief.  It's also safe to say that if I wanted to do something more ambitious than 200 swings it would still be "strength", and I would (thankfully) want to finish in under 45 minutes.

On second thought I can't really say that intervals are different from LSD.  When I go jogging it just naturally turns into a fartlek anyhow because of terrain.  What makes it LSD is that overall it's a sustainable pace I can keep up for thirty minutes or more.  Jogging is an acquired taste.  I've convinced myself that I like it.  Anyhow it has direct carryover to hiking around in the hills, which I love.

I think it's fair to say that concurrent training isn't ideal, but if you are going to make it work the hypertrophy day should be as separate as possible from the endurance day.  So every week has to be a mini-cycle.  Maybe heavy low-volume grinds are more compatible with endurance.  Or with sport practice, as in Easy Strength for fighters.

Nothing here that isn't already in Pavel's books.  I just thought the "master switch" enzyme put a new light on his guidelines.
 
Nick, I didn't say swings aren't cardio, I said swings aren't "cardio."  They're cardio for people with the strength to endure them, and my point was that you need to be strong to swing a kettlebell of a proper size - 30% of your bodyweight or more.

-S-
 
g'day

although i've been following pavel and the team for a few years this will be the first time i've posted on a forum ever. My question or statement is. I am a seasonal labourer who works 7 to 8 months as a shearing shed rousabout. And 4-5months as a bag grain handler. As a rousabout the work involves basically doing anywhere from 200-800 body weight squats combined with double that of 3-5 metre sprints over 8 hours. As a grain handler I stack 18/25/40 and 45 kilogram bags mainly 40 kg picking them up from ground height  and stacking up to shoulder height, 8 hours a day the best total was 36 tonne i wanna get more. According to the science at the start of this topic what i do would be regarded as is endurance and i shouldn't be getting stronger or bigger. but I am. I only really started lifting 8 months ago doing deadlifts, one arm military presses , chinups and front squats.  all low reps but relatively heavy for my experience. I am 34 and do get sore but I gotta work to get paid. Anyway folks i dunno what i'm tryin' to say maybe if what your doing is helping you achieve your goals do it if not do something that does. Sorry for the long winded post. Best of luck in your training.
 
Steve Freides

Thanks for the reply.

I've read "Return of the Kettlebell" but only the once. Probably about time I read it again as whenever I go back to a book like that I always find there's something I missed :)

I found the section in "Easy Strength" about the LSD runs as a tonic very interesting. I've been thinking of incorporating a regular run into my program. I'm interested in learning how to run "barefoot", does anyone know where would be a good place to learn about this, or is it just a case of "get out there" and do it and let the body learn for itself? Thanks

 
 
I've heard good things about the Pose Method.  I've also read the book Chi Running and can recommend that.  Chi Running has classes, workshops, and a regular newsletter.

-S-
 
Hi Niggel,

Your experience does relate to this post.  Hard work like that doesn't fit into a neat category.  The question is if you are getting stronger from your dedicated lifting or from just general hard work.

I actually worked as a furniture mover off and on for a few years.  But I had already been power-bodybuilding for ten years before I started -- that's why they hired me.  My experience was that the physical work was counterproductive for my lifting, jogging, and sport goals.  The picture I have is that the body only has one energy pool for work and recuperation.  So physical work, lifting, cardio, and life stress all add up.  Your lifting makes a lot of sense for your situation -- covering your basic movements with a minimal low-volume program.  It sounds like we both discovered "Easy Strength" guidelines for ourselves.  On the plus side it was a good lesson to use my muscles for something in the real world.  The movements were Zercher-type deadlifts, farmer's walks, and a few clean-and-presses.  I was doing this during the "functional training" fad.  I always felt guilty that I wasn't doing functional training.  Just carrying pianos up and down staircases.

Anyhow I can sum up my current thinking based on my own experience and Pavel's guidelines:  One organism, one energy pool, send one clear adaptation message at a time.  Think "grow" or think "endure", but not both together.  Skill goes with everything.

John & Steve,

Barefoot running would make a great thread.  Last summer I went truly barefoot in the neighborhood park.  It's hard to do wrong.  It just hurts to heel-strike.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom