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Kettlebell Maximorum Master Thread

GovernorSilver said:
I have been getting the sense you've been trying to steer me away from KSK but we do have a breakdown in communications here. I'm not really getting why you feel KSK before Maximorum would be such a bad idea,

I guess you think my front squat and press will suffer in some way by doing a snatch-only program. That's understandable. I don't mind putting an assumption like that to the test though.
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I think the load recommendations in KSKwould be tough “practice” weights. Do what you feel is right for you. I’d say buy KSK and save it, use the vids and practice A+A style till you feel you’re ready for a program based off of that single lift.
 
GovernorSilver said:
I have been getting the sense you've been trying to steer me away from KSK but we do have a breakdown in communications here. I'm not really getting why you feel KSK before Maximorum would be such a bad idea,

I guess you think my front squat and press will suffer in some way by doing a snatch-only program. That's understandable. I don't mind putting an assumption like that to the test though.
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Yes, 100%, I don't think KSK is good for someone who doesn't know how to snatch or is new to it. Geoff may disagree, which may be why he offers those videos paired with it.

I'm less concerned about how your lifts will suffer on snatch only program so much as how much your strength will suffer on a snatch only program when you aren't highly competent in the snatch. Something like Maximorum allows you to get good training days in AND good snatch practice in (with the suggested modifications on the snatch day), so you have the opportunity to improve skill (snatch) and strength (C&P, FS) at the same time. Hopefully, at the end of the Maximorum block, you'll be left competent at snatching AND stronger than when you started. KSK as a snatch newbie would allow you to improve your skill with the snatch ... but I don't see a 9 week cycle focused almost only on learning the snatch as all that "great." Unless you start adding "extra" work...

My best analogy would be if a fairly strong person (let's just say, for kicks, a 200lbs press - 300lbs bench - 400 squat - 500 deadlift) decided to throw themselves into Olympic Weightlifting, and they found a program where all they did was snatch and clean and jerk. They would be using such light weights relative to their abilities as to actually detrain during the skill acquisition process, and it might be months before they are skilled enough that the snatch and clean and jerk present a strength training stimulus. If you were to do a program that, say, alternated skills days (snatch, clean and jerk) with strength days, they could then spend that skill acquisition period at the very least maintaining strength, or learning how to apply it in the shapes weightlifting requires, but there would be significant less detraining that would occur. They could even take a training day and spend 20 minutes on "skill work" (snatch, clean and jerk) and then move on to the "meat and potatoes" (strength work). Hopefully what I'm saying helps illustrate the concept.
 
Thank you gents for your thoughts.

I have some time to continue contemplating next steps in my training, as I have 2 weeks to go in Easy Muscle.

What you're saying about detraining is reasonable, in that noticeable strength loss may occur in as little as 4 weeks, though age may also be a factor. OTOH, myonuclei and neural adaptations from training in the first place allow faster regain of lost strength/muscle. The Science of Detraining: How Long You Can Take a Break from the Gym Before You Lose Muscle Mass & Strength •

I have previous double KB experience from Kettlebell Strong! but in retrospect, training the double KB press without having the required ROM was not a smart decision on my part. So when it's decision time, I'll evaluate my mobility and proceed with Maximorum if the mobility for double press is there - otherwise do Easy Muscle again (obviously a different schedule, possibly different weight, and single C&P rather than double) or try KSK.
 
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In the beginning of this year I started (after a round of Giant X1 with 2x20) I started KB Strong with 2x24. They where a 4rm at the time.
Sadly life got in the way and I had to stop for a time (I did up until session 16 of phase 1) and did some bodyweight work. In total I did not train with kettlebells for 5 or 6 weeks. Now I want to pick up the kettlebells again. And Maximorum is out, which I had my eye on since the beta test started.
Now I'm wondering what would be best: Starting KB Strong from scratch (not sure where to start after 5 or 6 weeks, so starting from session 1 is probably safer), or should I start with Maximorum. Both require a 5RM, so if I do one, I probably can't do the other till I'm strong enough to jump up in weight.
My main goal is GPP: be stronger and more conditioned for everyday life and play with my son. But I don't play a sport and have a deskjob, so no specific needs. Losing some weight or gaining muscle is a nice bonus, but I think those can be achieved on both programs with proper nutrition.
I did a new test. The 2x24 is now a 6RM in the C&P, and Single Snatch is 12RM with 20kg.
One caveat is that I, most weeks, only have time for 3 trainingsessions a week. In the FAQ Geoff states Maximorum can also be run 3 times a week instead of 4, but won't my results be a bit less if I couldn't make the 4 sessions?
 
Dimitri87 said:
One caveat is that I, most weeks, only have time for 3 trainingsessions a week. In the FAQ Geoff states Maximorum can also be run 3 times a week instead of 4, but won't my results be a bit less if I couldn't make the 4 sessions?
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Doesn't this mean the programme is 33% longer in duration?
So same results just it takes longer to arrive there.
 
John K said:
Yes, 100%, I don't think KSK is good for someone who doesn't know how to snatch or is new to it. Geoff may disagree, which may be why he offers those videos paired with it.
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@John K, I generally disagree.

I think the mistake many are making is looking at the Snatch in isolation.

In the modern KB (SF & RKC) systems, the Snatch is the last exercise of the single KB exercises learned. I don't think it's changed.

This means it's - or should be - a culmination of everything learned and trained to date:

Hip Hinge - Swings, Cleans
Overhead [Shoulder] "Mo-Stability" & Lockout Strength - TGU
Taming the Arc - Cleans
Moving the KB To Overhead - Presses

So, the Snatch becomes a natural progression from all those skills. And that means generally, the body is prepared as a whole for the exercise.

The problem becomes when people (no one on this forum of course) see the Snatch as cool and jump right into using it without the aforementioned preparation.

The loading in KSK may look aggressive, but in Phase 1 it tops out at 62.5-71% of the RM.

Worst case scenario, someone could do a "Phase 0.5" and run Day 2 all 3 days for 3-4 weeks, then proceed to Phase 1.

Finally, I offer the videos so people who aren't sure about the proper technique, can be. My assumption is that they have the pre-requisites in place. (Part of the reason I put out the "5 Levels of Kettlebell Training" series.) However, you know what they say about "assuming," so this could come back to bite/haunt me.

Hopefully this helps/clarifies things.

John K said:
I'm less concerned about how your lifts will suffer on snatch only program so much as how much your strength will suffer on a snatch only program when you aren't highly competent in the snatch. Something like Maximorum allows you to get good training days in AND good snatch practice in (with the suggested modifications on the snatch day), so you have the opportunity to improve skill (snatch) and strength (C&P, FS) at the same time. Hopefully, at the end of the Maximorum block, you'll be left competent at snatching AND stronger than when you started.
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This is an interesting point.

John K said:
KSK as a snatch newbie would allow you to improve your skill with the snatch ... but I don't see a 9 week cycle focused almost only on learning the snatch as all that "great." Unless you start adding "extra" work...
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Remember, KSK, if run correctly, isn't "learning" the Snatch. It's training the Snatch, and reaping the benefits from doing so, because the numbers become quite challenging.

But let's keep it in context: KSK is a minimalist program. MAXIMORUM, by contrast, is not.
John K said:
My best analogy would be if a fairly strong person (let's just say, for kicks, a 200lbs press - 300lbs bench - 400 squat - 500 deadlift) decided to throw themselves into Olympic Weightlifting, and they found a program where all they did was snatch and clean and jerk. They would be using such light weights relative to their abilities as to actually detrain during the skill acquisition process, and it might be months before they are skilled enough that the snatch and clean and jerk present a strength training stimulus. If you were to do a program that, say, alternated skills days (snatch, clean and jerk) with strength days, they could then spend that skill acquisition period at the very least maintaining strength, or learning how to apply it in the shapes weightlifting requires, but there would be significant less detraining that would occur. They could even take a training day and spend 20 minutes on "skill work" (snatch, clean and jerk) and then move on to the "meat and potatoes" (strength work). Hopefully what I'm saying helps illustrate the concept.
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I think this is a decent illustration.

However, I think it's comparing apples and oranges - a strong individual who's got a fair amount of time at the weight pile learning new relatively high technical skills, versus someone who's from the looks of it (correct me if I'm wrong), learning much easier, lower technical skills (KB vs. Barbell Snatch) and building himself up from inside the system. The "oranges" here would be similar to a youth learning Olympic lifting with little strength background.

This is my $0.02. Hopefully it helps.
 
tigheguy said:
I'm a little concerned after reading one of the email reviews at how the person said they felt beat up after finishing the program. I like to work hard and push myself but I also don't want to aggravate any old injuries. If anyone else has tested it in the beta version I would like to hear your feed back. Nothing is bothering me at the moment but sometimes if I push to hard an old shoulder injury acts up.
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I was one of the guy whose results were shared. I made a comment about the program and my shoulders needing a break. In short, the fault wasn’t the programming but personal weakness in my technique and back muscles. With the right technique, and the self-control to not try to crush every set you should be fine. BUT, I would address your week links before starting the program because it will reveal them. I started the program after a whole year of almost exclusively pressing in on plane overhead. My back, shoulders and body need a little more variety than that. So, I’m doing some easy strength for a few months with some Q and D with specific shoulder and back work targeting my weak areas. After that I’m tempted to repeat it with next bell size up OR pursue the beast tamer with a coach (I credit Maximorum for getting me within striking distance). Jason
 
Jason Briggs said:
I was one of the guy whose results were shared. I made a comment about the program and my shoulders needing a break. In short, the fault wasn’t the programming but personal weakness in my technique and back muscles. With the right technique, and the self-control to not try to crush every set you should be fine. BUT, I would address your week links before starting the program because it will reveal them. I started the program after a whole year of almost exclusively pressing in on plane overhead. My back, shoulders and body need a little more variety than that. So, I’m doing some easy strength for a few months with some Q and D with specific shoulder and back work targeting my weak areas. After that I’m tempted to repeat it with next bell size up OR pursue the beast tamer with a coach (I credit Maximorum for getting me within striking distance). Jason
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I appreciate the reply and I purchased the program and will start the program after minimalist strong.
 
First week of Maximorum is in the books! This is a challenging (in a good way) program.

I was part of the Beta Test for Giant X. (Another excellent program by the way) I have been closely following this thread to get a feel of what to expect from Maximorum. I am really enjoying the program.

For over a year I have been following programs that are exclusively double kettlebell programs. The single bell snatch is a welcome addition/reintroduction to my programing. I finished my last program with single bell snatches in January of 2022. I forgot how much I love single bell snatches. What a great lift!!

For anyone who is on the fence about this program jump right in. You will like this program.
 
Geoff Neupert said:
@John K, I generally disagree.

I think the mistake many are making is looking at the Snatch in isolation.

In the modern KB (SF & RKC) systems, the Snatch is the last exercise of the single KB exercises learned. I don't think it's changed.

This means it's - or should be - a culmination of everything learned and trained to date:

Hip Hinge - Swings, Cleans
Overhead [Shoulder] "Mo-Stability" & Lockout Strength - TGU
Taming the Arc - Cleans
Moving the KB To Overhead - Presses

So, the Snatch becomes a natural progression from all those skills. And that means generally, the body is prepared as a whole for the exercise.

The problem becomes when people (no one on this forum of course) see the Snatch as cool and jump right into using it without the aforementioned preparation.

The loading in KSK may look aggressive, but in Phase 1 it tops out at 62.5-71% of the RM.

Worst case scenario, someone could do a "Phase 0.5" and run Day 2 all 3 days for 3-4 weeks, then proceed to Phase 1.

Finally, I offer the videos so people who aren't sure about the proper technique, can be. My assumption is that they have the pre-requisites in place. (Part of the reason I put out the "5 Levels of Kettlebell Training" series.) However, you know what they say about "assuming," so this could come back to bite/haunt me.

Hopefully this helps/clarifies things.


This is an interesting point.


Remember, KSK, if run correctly, isn't "learning" the Snatch. It's training the Snatch, and reaping the benefits from doing so, because the numbers become quite challenging.

But let's keep it in context: KSK is a minimalist program. MAXIMORUM, by contrast, is not.

I think this is a decent illustration.

However, I think it's comparing apples and oranges - a strong individual who's got a fair amount of time at the weight pile learning new relatively high technical skills, versus someone who's from the looks of it (correct me if I'm wrong), learning much easier, lower technical skills (KB vs. Barbell Snatch) and building himself up from inside the system. The "oranges" here would be similar to a youth learning Olympic lifting with little strength background.

This is my $0.02. Hopefully it helps.
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Amazing response Geoff, thank you for the time you took to write it up!
 
2nd week of Maximorum is done! This has been an "invigorating" week for me. I had social engagements every evening this week. I got to bed later than I normally do. I drank beer and ate tasty food. Great week. I still got out of bed and did my lifts.

Bring on Week 3!!
 
blad51 said:
2nd week of Maximorum is done! This has been an "invigorating" week for me. I had social engagements every evening this week. I got to bed later than I normally do. I drank beer and ate tasty food. Great week. I still got out of bed and did my lifts.

Bring on Week 3!!
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Nice!
Just finished week 3 myself. Love the program but getting concerned about the upcoming high rep Snatch ladders...mainly due to impending Summer and higher temps. Will do my best to practice in the mornings.

Somehow KB Maximorum has put a pep in my 54 year old step!
 
Week 3 is done! 1/4 of the way done with Maximorum.

This is really a great program. The snatches are my favorite part of the program. I am currently parking the bells to switch hands. I plan to do this method for Phase 1. During Phase 2 I plan to complete the snatches on one side, hike the bell, swing the bell to waist height, float the bell, and then switch the bell to the other hand in the air. I also plan to super set the DCPs and DFSQs during Phase 2.

Bring on Week 4!
 
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