all posts post new thread

Nutrition Meat, it's all you eat

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Research by Dr Donald Layman demonstrated that the body is able to effectively process around 30 gram of carbohydrate per meal.

Keto protein consumption need to be low to moderate, protein intake no higher than 25% of your caloric intake.

Kenny, what kind of variety do you see proper in these two statements or do you see them as absolute ones?

For example, we could have a 20-year old competitive powerlifter who weights 250 lbs and a small 80-year old sedentary granny. I wouldn't expect them to need the same relative amount of protein and be able to process the same absolute amount of carbohydrates.
 
Let's work backwards...


I hate to do a line by line response, but no way around it this time.

Again, I have zero issues with this diet for medical reasons or as a periodic strategy. I have concerns when this is presented as a safe nutritional alternative - long term studies show a mixed bag of results including some rather severe adverse reactions. I contest that it is any sort of natural long-term state with the exception of chronic starvation, by definition not exactly a natural state. The Inuit weren't Keto and neither were the Masai or any other known indigenous folk. Long term use really should be monitored carefully.

Keto for "Efficient Use of Body Fat"

-- I already burn fat for fuel and also have good insulin response to carbs, Anyone who exercise regularly does so as well. ---

Why?

Keto is an effective method of increasing muscle mass while decreasing body fat. Research indicates it increase Leucine levels. Leucine is the amino acid responsible for the maintenance and growth of muscle. It increase mitochondria, the "Power house of the Cell", etc.

----A regular diet consisting of balanced percentages of all three macronutrients in combination with exercise has the same effect.---


"Fickle Diet"

---any diet that requires breath analysis or blood sampling to verify metabolic state definitely sounds fickle -----

NO Glycogen In Blubber

Blubber is all fat, there's no glycogen in it.


----If oxygen is depleted, marine mammals can access substantial reservoirs of glycogen that support anaerobic glycolysis of the cells involved during conditions of systemic hypoxia associated with prolonged submersion---

--page 10 of this shows the breakdown - in some sections there's nearly as many carbs as fat

http://www.hafro.is/Bokasafn/Greinar/Rit-fisk/rit_fisk_12-2.pdf

--and this article detailing the use of glycolysis for ATP production on deep dives

Metabolic consequences of diving in animals and man | Science

----The traditional diet (high in fat and low in carbohydrates) of Nunavik Inuit suggests that they have high rates of gluconeogenesis, which is supported by their larger liver size compared to other populations [3].

Increased Missense Mutation Burden of Fatty Acid Metabolism Related Genes in Nunavik Inuit Population


-----According to [Kroghs’] analysis the metabolism of the food contained in the Eskimo dietary would not be expected to cause ketosis, because the calculated antiketogenic effect of the large amount of protein ingestion was somewhat more than enough to offset the ketogenic effect of fat plus protein…Average daily food partition is about 280 gm. of protein, 135 gm. of fat, and 54 gm. of carbohydrate of which the bulk is derived from the glycogen of the meat eaten…During fasting the respiratory quotient falls to a level which may be interpreted as indicating a conversion of fat into carbohydrate.”----

-----“Eskimos actually consume more carbohydrates than most nutritionists have assumed. Because Eskimos frequently eat their meat raw and frozen, they take in more glycogen than a person purchasing meat with a lower glycogen content in a grocery store. The Eskimo practice of preserving a whole seal or bird carcass under an intact whole skin with a thick layer of blubber also permits some proteins to ferment into carbohydrates.”----


On normal diet, Eskimos showed no evidence of ketosis and had high glucose
tolerance (unlike most modern ketogenic dieters, who fail oral glucose
tolerance tests while in nutritional ketosis)---

Cancer Treatment

--- not exactly a slam dunk for cancer treatment either.--
“Given our current findings that ketones increase tumor growth, cancer patients, and their dieticians may want to reconsider the use of a ‘ketogenic diet’ as a form of anti-cancer therapy.”

Can a Ketogenic Diet Cure Cancer? Part Two

I'm all good with fasting for health and short term use of Keto, long term use should be thought of as a medical treatment rather than a lifestyle diet. There is no detrimental effect of glycolytic metabolism in combination with other metabolism, and no detrimental effect from ingesting common sense amounts of whole food carbs of virtually any variety, and that includes honey and sugar cane. I considered trying Keto, but I can't come up with a good enough reason for me personally.

Martin
 
Last edited:
I hate to do a line by line response, but no way around it this time.

Again, I have zero issues with this diet for medical reasons or as a periodic strategy. I have concerns when this is presented as a safe nutritional alternative - long term studies show a mixed bag of results including some rather severe adverse reactions. I contest that it is any sort of natural long-term state with the exception of chronic starvation, by definition not exactly a natural state. The Inuit weren't Keto and neither were the Masai or any other known indigenous folk. Long term use really should be monitored carefully.n

Mixed Bag of Results

As with all subjects, there is mixed research and view.

You have read the research perspective data the "adverse reactions" to the diet. You should also review the positive research and podcast, as well.

Aliens Going To A Basketball Game

At this point, you view is like the story of aliens who go to a basketball game. They report back that playing basketball make you tall and sitting in the bleachers make you short.

Take Home Message

A snapshot one side perspective of anything, never provide you with the whole story.

"IDK"

As you stated in your previous post, "I don't know". That due to the fact that you have no practical experience with the Keto Diet.

As I stated in my previous post, you need to examine any subject from various view points.

You also need to experiment with it practical application.

Keto for "Efficient Use of Body Fat"

-- I already burn fat for fuel and also have good insulin response to carbs, Anyone who exercise regularly does so as well. ---[/quote]

Exercise

Yes, one of the benefits of exercise is that it increases insulin sensitivity.

With that said, exercise minimally increases fat burning. In this regard, diet is the key; exercise providing a synergistic effect.

Insulin Sensitivity

Insulin Sensitive individual can pretty much eat carbohydrates as they like.

Insulin Resistant individuals need to curb their carbohydrate intake. The key to finding the right amount of carbohydrates for them is experimentation.

Why?

Keto is an effective method of increasing muscle mass while decreasing body fat. Research indicates it increase Leucine levels. Leucine is the amino acid responsible for the maintenance and growth of muscle. It increase mitochondria, the "Power house of the Cell", etc.
----A regular diet consisting of balanced percentages of all three macronutrients in combination with exercise has the same effect.---

Not Quite

1) Research has demonstrated that Leucine levels are increased and maintained with a Keto Diet over the Traditional Western Diet and other diets.

2) Research shows that Mitochondria are increased more so with the Keto Diet and Intermittent Fasting.

"Fickle Diet"
---any diet that requires breath analysis or blood sampling to verify metabolic state definitely sounds fickle -----

That is one weird definition based on a lack of knowledge on your part.

NO Glycogen In Blubber

Blubber is all fat, there's no glycogen in it.


----If oxygen is depleted, marine mammals can access substantial reservoirs of glycogen that support anaerobic glycolysis of the cells involved during conditions of systemic hypoxia associated with prolonged submersion---

--page 10 of this shows the breakdown - in some sections there's nearly as many carbs as fat

http://www.hafro.is/Bokasafn/Greinar/Rit-fisk/rit_fisk_12-2.pdf

--and this article detailing the use of glycolysis for ATP production on deep dives

Metabolic consequences of diving in animals and man | Science

----The traditional diet (high in fat and low in carbohydrates) of Nunavik Inuit suggests that they have high rates of gluconeogenesis, which is supported by their larger liver size compared to other populations [3].

Increased Missense Mutation Burden of Fatty Acid Metabolism Related Genes in Nunavik Inuit Population

-----According to [Kroghs’] analysis the metabolism of the food contained in the Eskimo dietary would not be expected to cause ketosis, because the calculated antiketogenic effect of the large amount of protein ingestion was somewhat more than enough to offset the ketogenic effect of fat plus protein…Average daily food partition is about 280 gm. of protein, 135 gm. of fat, and 54 gm. of carbohydrate of which the bulk is derived from the glycogen of the meat eaten…During fasting the respiratory quotient falls to a level which may be interpreted as indicating a conversion of fat into carbohydrate.”----

-----“Eskimos actually consume more carbohydrates than most nutritionists have assumed. Because Eskimos frequently eat their meat raw and frozen, they take in more glycogen than a person purchasing meat with a lower glycogen content in a grocery store. The Eskimo practice of preserving a whole seal or bird carcass under an intact whole skin with a thick layer of blubber also permits some proteins to ferment into carbohydrates.”----

On normal diet, Eskimos showed no evidence of ketosis and had high glucose
tolerance (unlike most modern ketogenic dieters, who fail oral glucose
tolerance tests while in nutritional ketosis)---['quote]

Great Information

I really appreciate you taking time to post that. I will review it and get back later on this...thanks.

Cancer Treatment
--- not exactly a slam dunk for cancer treatment either.--
“Given our current findings that ketones increase tumor growth, cancer patients, and their dieticians may want to reconsider the use of a ‘ketogenic diet’ as a form of anti-cancer therapy.”

Keto Diet Research

I NEVER stated it was a slam dunk. I provide information on the Keto Diet was effective in starving cancer.

To gain another perspective on this, you need to examine the research of Drs Dom D'Agostino, Thomas Seyfried, etc.

There research had demonstrated the Keto Diet is an effective tool in the treatment of some cancers. To reiterate from my previous post, I noted that it was effective with some cancers but not necessarily all.

Dr Layne Norton (PhD, Nutrition, Pro-Natural Bodybuilder, Powerlifter) is not a fan of the Keto Diet nor Intermittent Fasting. However, Norton stated if he had cancer, he implement the Keto Diet based on the research and empirical data from the the results obtain from real people.


I appreciate you providing this. I will see if I can find it.

I'm all good with fasting for health and short term use of Keto, long term use should be thought of as a medical treatment rather than a lifestyle diet.

Twice, I have provided you a research article on how the Keto Diet can be an effective tool for athletes. There other research articles on it. These article will provide you with a better understanding on this.

There is no detrimental effect of glycolytic metabolism in combination with other metabolism, and no detrimental effect from ingesting common sense amounts of whole food carbs of virtually any variety, and that includes honey and sugar cane. [/quote\

Agreed

For the general population, "ingesting common sense amounts of whole food carbohydrates" works.

The irony, is that ANY caloric restriction diet will improve your health. A great demonstration of this is...

The Twinkie Diet
Twinkie diet helps nutrition professor lose 27 pounds - CNN.com

"For 10 weeks, Mark Haub, a professor of human nutrition at Kansas State University, ate one of these sugary cakelets every three hours, instead of meals."

The end result was that he lost 27 lbs and improved his blood profile.

Haub did it to demonstrate that calorie restriction is the key to weight loss. Haub was somewhat amazed the positive effects obtain with his blood profile.

Haub went on to stated, that it was not a diet that he recommend.

I considered trying Keto, but I can't come up with a good enough reason for me personally.

Your Choice

If you happy with your present diet, then stick with it.

Practical Experience

However, it impossible for you to fully grasp or understand something you have never tried.

It amount to someone coaching a sport that they read about but never played.

You don't have to be a great athlete to be a great coach. Ironically, great athletes rarely make great coaches.

It impossible to coach a game that you have never really played, which is what you are doing.

Cudos

I am impressed with the fact that you researched this.

I now need to follow up with the reading assignments you have provide for me.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Kenny,
I am still looking into the pros and cons of this metabolic strategy. I cannot bring myself to call it a "diet" except out of convenience, as it really does not have any natural analog pertaining to long term use, not even in the more broad animal kingdom (eg. hibernating bears aren't ketogenic) let alone among human populations. In fact, the communities that should have become most accustomed to it (Inuit), actually are more resistant to entering a ketogenic state than the average caucasian. Instead of becoming adapted to burning fat preferentially, they adapted improved ability to extract and synthesize carbs. Normally when adaptations like this arise in isolated communities it is due to reproductive advantage.

As a therapeutic alternative it must be a godsend compared to many pharmaceuticals or where there simply is no other treatment option. And yes, people engaging in low energy, long duration activities especially in an isolated environment will have an obvious advantage as well. The biggest proponents by far are those who use it therapeutically rather than recreationally.

Most of the studies I've seen describing what can only be defined as recreational use, generally show comparable levels of performance with drops in some respects and improvements in others. Across a broad spectrum of physical activity it doesn't seem to confer concrete benefits, now back to the claim it is healthier to metabolize fats than carbohydrates. We know refined sugars are not good for us, but whole food carbs do not trigger the same cascade of problems, nor do foods eaten in combination. I haven't even found evidence it universally works better than other hyponutritional diets for weight loss.

Again, I fully recognize the utility of it in context, but I have always been suspicious of the two biggest claims used by those endorsing it voluntarily - that burning carbohydrates is somehow metabolically more harmful than fat metabolism, and that humans are somehow evolved to preferentially consume and burn fat for energy to the tune of 80+% of our diet. I am not finding convincing evidence to support either of these claims.

True enough, having not tried it I cannot comment from experience, but then this is not a diet that is universally embraced or adapted to for many of those who attempt it. I don't need to try it myself to know I might not tolerate it. It may very well be safe for permanent use cradle to grave, but that has yet to be proven, and a body of evidence to suggest that for many it isn't. I have no medical metabolic reasons to use it, and cannot currently come up with reasons beyond that why I would.

That said, I will continue to keep an eye out for the latest research though, plenty of people swear by it. I am of the opinion that there is far greater individual nutritional needs for best function than is currently understood, to say nothing of subclinical metabolic problems.

Martin
 
I don't need to try it myself to know I might not tolerate it.

Martin,

Oxymoron Statement.

You've provided a positive statement followed by a negative. By doing so, you canceled it to zero.

The Positive: "You don't need to try it"...to know"

The Negative: You "MIGHT NOT tolerate it"... This meaning that you have no practical experience with it and at least have clearly stated that you "MIGHT NOT tolerate", which means that you "Might tolerate it", even do well with it.

The Take Home Message

You Know that you Don't Know.

With that said, I have some understanding of your feeling on this.

Like you my initial response to methods and information that is foreign or counter to what I have learned is that I don't believe it and oppose it.

However, the only way to truly gain any first hand knowledge is to implement it.

As a case in point, I was provide research years ago on...

Complex Training

I had not experience with it so it didn't make sense to me.

I eventually came to the conclusion the only way to find out if it was an effective method was experiment with it. I found it was and still is a effective method of increasing Limit Strength, Power and or Hypertrophy, dependent on how the program is written.

I wrote a research article on it for Powerlfiting USA in 2001 on it.

My ending statement in the article addressed my initial "knee jerk reaction" questioning its effectiveness and those who might have the same response.

"I guarantee it will NEVER work, if you Never try it."

What I've learned is that the ONLY method of knowing if something works or doesn't work is through experimentation.

"All Truth Passes Through Three Stages", Arthur Schopenhauer

1) First, it is ridiculed.

2) Second, it is violently opposed.

3) Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

The Majority Of Individuals

The majority of individuals ridicule and violently oppose anything that disrupt their beliefs and what they have learned. These individual stop there, never moving forward.

A minority of individuals ridicule, oppose it, and question it but take into consideration that it might work; researching and experimenting with it to gain first hand knowledge.

As Einstein put it, "Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing."

Your Posted Research

Thanks again for taking the time to post it. I about to take a look at it now.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Kenny, what kind of variety do you see proper in these two statements or do you see them as absolute ones?

For example, we could have a 20-year old competitive powerlifter who weights 250 lbs and a small 80-year old sedentary granny. I wouldn't expect them to need the same relative amount of protein and be able to process the same absolute amount of carbohydrates.

Antti,

Obviously, there a definitive difference between a 20 year, 250 lb old powerlifter and 80 year old woman.

20 Year Old Powerlifter

Obviously, the 20 years old needs more calories and protein. Most 20 years old are more Insulin Sensitive and able to handle more carbohydrates.

However, powerlifters (Limit Strength Athletes) don't necessarily need to consume a high carbohydrate diet. That because Powerlifters are ATP Energy System Energy Athletes. They are not Glycolytic Energy System Athletes.

Protein intake need to be around 1.4 to 2.0 gram per kilo of body weight, dependent on the research you read.

The amount of protein per serving needs to be a minimum 30 gram plus per meal. More on that in a minute.

80 Year Old Woman

Research shows that as we age, Insulin Resistance increases. Thus, most older individual need to consume fewer carbohydrates.

Ironically, research shows that as we age, the amount of protein per meal needs to increase to about 38 plus gram of "Quality Protein" (meats and/or dairy combined).

The reason for the minimum protein recommendations per meal difference per meal for the 20 year old vs the 80 year old has to do with...

mTOR (Mammalian Target of Rapamycin)

mTor is the anabolic trigger for muscle growth.

Younger Individuals and mTor

mTOR's is turned on with approximately 2.5 gram of Leucine for younger individuals.

Younger individual's systems are more efficient; less Leucine is needed to stimulate mTOR.

Just a little over 30 gram of "Quality Protein" contains around 2.5 gram of Leucine.

Older Individuals and mTOR

Older individual's systems are less efficient; more Leucine (protein) is needed to stimulate mTOR.

Thus, older individual need to consume a larger around of "Quality Protein", ingest more Leucine to turn mTOR compared to a younger individual.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Ahhh, please do not misunderstand my feelings on this subject.

I do not believe it doesn't work, or that some individuals do not do well on it. The observable results speak for themselves and some folk experience great benefit from using it.

I believe that "conventional" nutritional strategies work every bit as well with exception of material limitations (dogsledding to the Pole, mountain climbing, some endurance sports).

I haven't seen any research that contradicts this in a convincing manner. I question the safety of long term (permanent replacement) use of it across the general population, I question some of the underlying rationale that it is a perfectly natural metabolic condition for long term use, or that it is metabolically safer than a conventional diet, that is all. These reservations lead me to compare it pro/con to conventional nutritional strategies instead of whether it works in a vacuum.

I continue to look into this as well. To those for whom it is working, I'm not trying to convince them otherwise. Only that it should be approached with more care than simply rearranging macronutrient percentages within levels that do not trigger altered insulin response.
 
You may find this interesting.....extract from The Natural Alternative? Part 1

"On top of this, there are a number of potential side effects. As the diet has had many years of use as a treatment for epilepsy, it has been extensively studied. Although with the correct supervision, many of the side effects can be mitigated, Jennifer Carrol RD, who has worked as a specialist ketogenic dietitian in the NHS says -



‘There are many potential side effects of a ketogenic diet including hypoglycaemia, hyperketosis, metabolic acidosis, vitamin and mineral deficiencies, poor growth, renal stone formation, cardiac abnormalities and gastrointestinal issues such as reflux, constipation and vomiting. Interactions with regular medications may exacerbate some of these side effects. It is therefore essential that patients are regularly monitored and steps taken to adjust the KD to reduce the risk/occurrence of these side effects. This includes extensive blood work at baseline, 3 months and then 6 monthly thereafter. In addition renal ultrasounds and echocardiograms may be undertaken.’



She is right about side effects. There is evidence that it might be hepatotoxic too. There is a lot of data about a long term ketogenic diet and most of it not good. There is also some evidence that such a high fat diet could lead to insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes long term by messing with mitochondrial function. References here and here."

 
Let me make this easy for all of you.

The only one thing about diet that is agreed upon to be true is to eat whole foods, as close to their original form as possible.

That's it. That's the only thing people know for sure about diet. The rest is just an excuse for people to type.

Want to gain weight? Eat more for a while. Want to lose weight? Eat less for a while.
 
@kennycro@@aol.com, why do assume every power lifter is interested in hypertrophy? I am happy with my own performance without the diet or the training to get bigger. I like to try to make the most of the muscle I've already got.

-S-
 
@kennycro@@aol.com, why do assume every power lifter is interested in hypertrophy? I am happy with my own performance without the diet or the training to get bigger. I like to try to make the most of the muscle I've already got.

-S-

Steve,

Hypertrophy

I realize that all Powerlifter are not trying to gain weight.

Your question is vague. To effectively respond to it please quote statement that I have made concerning Hypertrophy so that I can appropriately reply.

Thanks,

Kenny Croxdale
 

Attachments

  • upload_2017-6-18_10-22-14.png
    upload_2017-6-18_10-22-14.png
    53.1 KB · Views: 14
If you are following a meat only diet or LCHF how out of whack or disruptive would a slip up be? For example, Fall equinox is coming up and there is going to be a feast to be had. Pies, pies, goodies, and stuffing. Of course there is going to be leftovers. And next month for everyone else is Thanksgiving. So pretty much a date with carb overload.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom