Menopausal Woman about to do "Kettlebell Muscle" Program. Nutrition Help?

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DancingLion

Level 1 Valued Member
Greetings, I need your considered opinions...

I'm 50. menopausal. I'm 5ft. 6, currently Weigh 143 21% bodyfat. I was 148 19% 4 months ago but broke my hand and had to stop training. I reduced my calories thinking I wouldn't put on too much fat while not able to train and did lots of zumba to keep moving(I know, I know...hours of cardio & no lifting...face palm!) I lost 5 pounds of muscle and gained 2lbs. of fat (VERY upset by this).

I was cleared to train again last month and began doing Easy Strength plus 300 light swings a day to get my grip back.

I'm ready to begin to get my 5lbs of muscle back(PLUS some hopefully). I'm all set to begin the "Kettlebell Muscle" 5 week "on ramp" and then the full program for 3 months until years end.

I'm unsure how many calories to eat. My current resting is 1636 calories a day(hydrostatic /water dunk test) before my injury it was 1675.

How many calories a day is " eat a lot" per Geoff's advice to put my muscle on but minimize fat gain? I want all the muscle I can get. Being menopausal makes me wonder...is 1850 reasonable? too much? not enough?

I currently have a protein shake after training then a huge meal (bucket of veggie salad mixed with ground grassfed beef or organic turkey, avocado and cottage cheese at end of day(16/8 or 20-/4 IF)

Any ideas on calorie amount? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@DancingLion welcome to our forum.

IMHO, this is something you do on your own, or you find a nutritionist. Any number, even from a nutritionist, is going to be only a starting point.

-S-
 

DancingLion

Level 1 Valued Member
Okay, thank you. I want to begin this program this week. It says "eat a lot". 1636 is maintenance so I'll just add 200 and see what happens. My food is impeccable and I am a nutritionist(naturopath) The "party line" numbers for menopausal women my age is well under 1600 so I know that's not going to work for me. I train hard. My reducing my calories is what made me lose my 5 pounds of muscle. Just thought I'd ask some gireviks with muscle building experience. I know how to cut. I have no clue how much to eat to build. Thanks though.
 

DancingLion

Level 1 Valued Member
Oh, and I did consult another nutritionist when I was injured to check my numbers. He said I needed 1365 a day if not training. This is what I dropped to while injured. It's what I think caused the 5 pound muscle loss. My dunking said 1675 so at a 300 calorie a day deficit for a few months I lost muscle. The current person I checked with came up with 1350 while training which isn't even my resting rate. Current nutrition guildlines for menopausal women do not take weight training into consideration it seems. No one has a non-ridiculous number for me. (Sigh). I guess I'll need to be my own guinea pig here. Lol!
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
I'm unsure how many calories to eat. My current resting is 1636 calories a day(hydrostatic /water dunk test) before my injury it was 1675.
Hydrostatic

As you know there is a plus/minus factor with everything, including Hydrostatic.

One of the keys to ensure the most reliable reading is if they measured your "Residual Lung Capacity".

Since fat float, buoyancy is the determinate factor of your body fat percentage.

Anther factor that determine your buoyancy is that amount of air that remain in your lungs, that you don't expel in the tank. Thus, measuring your "Residual Lung Capacity" is vital in obtaining the you're most accurate reading.

How many calories a day is " eat a lot" per Geoff's advice to put my muscle on but minimize fat gain?
Eat A Lot

...ensure that you gain muscle and maximize fat gain.

One of the most effective method of determining your daily caloric intake needs is a...

Three Day Recall


1) Count your calories for three days. One of them need to be a weekend day, when you normal eating plan changes.

2) Divide your three day calorie intake by three to obtain your "Daily Average Calorie Intake".

If your gaining weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are losing weight, you are in a calorie deficit.

If your weight is the same, that is you caloric maintenance intake.

Gaining Muscle and Minimizing Fat.

Sepearate research by Dr Layne Norton and Dr John Ivy came to the same conclusion.

The most effective method of gaining weight, increasing muscle mass and minimizing fat gain, is to increase your caloric intake 20% above what you are now consuming.

1400 kcal A Day Example

If you are consuming 1400 kcal a day, increasing your caloric intake would mean you'd be consuming 1680 kcals (1400 X 120%)

"I guess I'll need to be my own guinea pig here."

As with everything, self experimentation is required; it is a bit of an "Educated Guessing Game".

As Einstein said, "Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing."

Kenny Croxdale
 
Last edited:

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@DancingLion, the usual number I've seen bandied about for either gaining or losing weight is 250-500 calories per day. In your case, if you doing the math and you know how many calories you eat for maintenance, a reasonable goal would be to take in 250-500 calories per day _more_ to meet your goal of gaining muscles.

-S-
 

DancingLion

Level 1 Valued Member
Kenny, Many thanks for your considered response! Very helpful things to geek out on and factor in.

Regarding the dunking they made me go under 3 times each test and took the middle number. Personally I would take the worst number so that I don't inadvertently over eat/under train. To that end 1600 is UNDER the number they gave me. I also consider that my metabolic menopausal downshift number correction. Lol!

I Looked at may, june, july and I grossly UNDER ATE! Sometimes by 1500 calories a day. I'm now recalling that I did 3-4 hours of cardio a week. No weight training (my hand was broken) and had mostly smoothies and soft food because of ongoing dental work gone wrong. All in all a perfect storm for cannibalizing my muscle. *DamnAndAlas* so the plan is up my calories from 1600(maintenance) to 1800-1850 with a 16/8 fasted feeding window with an 24 hour fast thrown in after a cheat day (if I take one). I'm doing the "Kettlebell Muscle" program 5 week on ramp...hoping I can move up in weight before beginning full 5 rep plan. I'd like to do it with double 12kg as I've lost my double 16kg snatch. But the 12's are currently very ugly also. If I must I'll do it with double 8kg as I can't find any 10Kg.

I really appreciate your time. I just needed a CLUE..Thanks again Kenny!

Hydrostatic

As you know there is a plus/minus factor with everything, including Hydrostatic.

One of the keys to ensure the most reliable reading is if they measured your "Residual Lung Capacity".

Since fat float, buoyancy is the determinate factor of your body fat percentage.

Anther factor that determine your buoyancy is that amount of air that remain in your lungs, that you don't expel in the tank. Thus, measuring your "Residual Lung Capacity" is vital in obtaining the you're most accurate reading.



Eat A Lot

...ensure that you gain muscle and maximize fat gain.

One of the most effective method of determining your daily caloric intake needs is a...

Three Day Recall


1) Count your calories for three days. One of them need to be a weekend day, when you normal eating plan changes.

2) Divide your three day calorie intake by three to obtain your "Daily Average Calorie Intake".

If your gaining weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are losing weight, you are in a calorie deficit.

If your weight is the same, that is you caloric maintenance intake.

Gaining Muscle and Minimizing Fat.

Sepearate research by Dr Layne Norton and Dr John Ivy came to the same conclusion.

The most effective method of gaining weight, increasing muscle mass and minimizing fat gain, is to increase your caloric intake 20% above what you are now consuming.

1400 kcal A Day Example

If you are consuming 1400 kcal a day, increasing your caloric intake would mean you'd be consuming 1680 kcals (1400 X 120%)

"I guess I'll need to be my own guinea pig here."

As with everything, self experimentation is required; it is a bit of an "Educated Guessing Game".

As Einstein said, "Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing."

Kenny Croxdale
 
Last edited:

DancingLion

Level 1 Valued Member
Thank you for this Steve! This is EXACTLY the kind of jump off point information I needed! The mainstream nutrition info for menopausal women is laughable. According to the tables they use I should be eating 1365. I lost muscle doing that. Everyone was all "yay, you lost 5 pounds". My girevik soul was horrified. I'm going to go with 250 extra calories during the 5 week "on ramp" for kettlebell muscle program. I'll bump it up again when I begin the full 5 rep program. Thank you again. I feel I've got a solid plan now to rebuild.

@DancingLion, the usual number I've seen bandied about for either gaining or losing weight is 250-500 calories per day. In your case, if you doing the math and you know how many calories you eat for maintenance, a reasonable goal would be to take in 250-500 calories per day _more_ to meet your goal of gaining muscles.

-S-
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
Regarding the dunking they made me go under 3 times each test and took the middle number.
Residual Lung Capacity

Based on what you didn't say, it appears they did not measure you Residual Lung Capacity. Without it, the plus/minus error factor is magnified.

Middle Number

Picking the middle number is one method of having a reference point. Another would be to average the three numbers, either method will provide you with some type of reference.

With that said, I have had my body fat percentage hydrostatically meaured with and without a Residual Lung
Capacity. There was a huge number difference.

I have also had my body fat percentage measured with Calipers, Ultra Sound and Infrared.

Research shows that all of the method that attempt to calculate body fat percentage are flawed, inaccurate.

The Pitfalls of Body Fat “Measurement”: Part 1

These series of articles examine the inaccuracy issue with the variety of method used.

I have become more of the use of a tape measure and mirror; another topic for another time. Ironically, this method is the primary one utilized by Pro Bodybuilders.

Personally I would take the worst number so that I don't inadvertently over eat/under train. To that end 1600 is UNDER the number they gave me.
Determining Daily Caloric Needs

To reiterate, the various method of determining you Daily Caloric need is incredibly inaccurate.

Trip Analogy

A diet amount to taking a trip. You first need to find out where you are on the map.

The Three Day Recall Diet determines where you are on the map rather vaguely guessing via the variants of Metabolic Calculators.

I also consider that my metabolic menopausal downshift number correction. Lol!
I am not familiar with "Metabolic Menopausal Downshift", so I cannot comment.

I Looked at may, june, july and I grossly UNDER ATE! Sometimes by 1500 calories a day.
Under Eating

Under eating by 1500 calories a day; that number doesn't make sense.

I'm now recalling that I did 3-4 hours of cardio a week.
Cardio

As you know, preforming too much cardio impedes recovery.

Thus, your 3 -4 hours a week may have been too much, maybe not.

It determines how your cardio program was written and performed.

No weight training (my hand was broken)...
Future Reference Information

I am not sure exactly where you are going with the broken hand issue. My guess (guessing is never good) is that means you were preforming upper body and possibly lower body resistance exercises.

If that was the case, here's some future reference information ensure you minimize strength and atrophy, muscle loss with...

Crossover Strength Training in Physical Therapy | Mossberg Physical Therapy

Exercising the good limb has a cross over effect to the damaged limb you cannot train.

Thus, training the good limb enable you to minimize strength loss and muscle loss in the damaged limb.

All in all a perfect storm for cannibalizing my muscle.
Cannibalizing Muscle Mass

Usually, are in a caloric deficit you lose primarily body fat along with some muscle mass. That one of the reason there are "Weight Classes" in some sports.

Generally speaking, the majority of individual who are on a Caloric Deficit Diet will lose a greater percentage of body fat than muscle mass.

However, I would not exactly label it as "Cannibalizing Muscle Mass".

As you know, exercise ensure the body preserves more muscle muscle mass during a calorie deficit.

Another factor that ensure muscle mass is minimized during a calorie deficit is higher protein intake.

*DamnAndAlas*
I have not idea what this term means.

['quote]so the plan is up my calories from 1600(maintenance) to 1800-1850 with a 16/8 fasted feeding window with an 24 hour fast thrown in after a cheat day (if I take one). [/QUOTE]

Caloric Intake

As I note in my previous post, research show that the most effective method of ensuring increasing in muscle mass and minimizing adding body fat is to increase your Daily Caloric Intake approximately 20% above your present intake.

Doing The Math

1600 kcal X 120% = 1920 kcal Per Day.

Thus, your 1800 -1850 is in the ball park.

Steve's 250 to 500 Per Day

This essentially falls into the 20% increase in Daily Caloric Intake prescribed in the research.

The American College of Sport Medicine recommendation for gaining weight is an increase of around 500 kcal per day.

I understand that individual preform to see a definitive number for caloric for gaining or losing weight.

However, the 20% Rule provide a much more personalized method for determining each individuals number.

An individual consuming 1200 kcal per day increasing their intake 500 kcal to 1700 kcal per day is a 40% increase.

An individual consuming 3000 kcal per day increasing their intake to 3500 kcal per day is a 16% increase.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
I'm 50. menopausal. I'm 5ft. 6, currently Weigh 143 21% bodyfat.
Hi @DancingLion , I'm almost 50 yrs old, 5'8", currently weigh 164 and about 19% bodyfat. So not too much different.

I don't count calories. I try to eat healthy food, a decent balance of macros, lots of veggies, enough protein. If I maintain energy, and my weight doesn't fluctuate too much, I'm happy.

My lean mass (as measured by Bod Pod) hardly changes at all over the past few years. I did gain 6 lb of lean mass when I started strength training in earnest a few years ago, 4 lb of it in the first 4 months. Worth noting, I also lost 10 lb of bodyweight during that same 4 months. Now my lean mass hardly changes, though I have been getting stronger in the last few years.

I just can't help but think all this focus on counting is counterproductive for you, as you're in a healthy range already. But you are trying to put on a little muscle with the program you're on, so just eat a bit more than you normally do, or a bit more than what you need to stay satisfied. Like Steve said, an extra 250-500 calories should do.

I'm not sure that's helpful, but does it make sense? Do you feel like you have to count total calories to get it right?
 

Marc

Level 6 Valued Member
Eat to Perform -

They have a good calculator. It gives you the calories you need to maintain your weight.
Generally speaking adding 200-500 cals to that number will yield muscle gain.
However, I'd recommend starting with that number. Their calculator gives out a realativeley high figure. It will probably be enough to ensure muscle gain without fat gain. If you find you do not gain muscle simply add 200 cals and see again what happens.
 

DancingLion

Level 1 Valued Member
Anna,

You make many good points that I agree with. My goals in general are very Holistic. That said, I am REALLY Really bummed at having canabalized 5 pounds of muscle in 3 months by under eating. so I do feel the need to check in about what others doing Geoff's Kettlebell Muscle program have used as methods for calculating caloric intake. It seems I've got a major misconception about what my body needs for maintenance. I've always had a focus on fat loss before as I was overweight when I began training. so eating at a deficit is easy for me. Its all I've done. (Down 55lbs from 2012) Now my focus is firmly on building as much muscle as possible so I feel I'll need to establish a new habit of eating enough. I also have a habit of fasting (forgetting to eat)when I'm stressed. I overdid that. (Lol). Once I've successfully completed my first round of Kettlebell Muscle I'll have a 3+ month established habit of eating for hypertophy. Then I'll know better how to "eat intuitively " much closer to what I need. That said? I also just love to geek out and gather as much info as possible..I really appreciate your thoughts(And energy) I dont want to lose any more ground.

Hi @DancingLion , I'm almost 50 yrs old, 5'8", currently weigh 164 and about 19% bodyfat. So not too much different.

I don't count calories. I try to eat healthy food, a decent balance of macros, lots of veggies, enough protein. If I maintain energy, and my weight doesn't fluctuate too much, I'm happy.

My lean mass (as measured by Bod Pod) hardly changes at all over the past few years. I did gain 6 lb of lean mass when I started strength training in earnest a few years ago, 4 lb of it in the first 4 months. Worth noting, I also lost 10 lb of bodyweight during that same 4 months. Now my lean mass hardly changes, though I have been getting stronger in the last few years.

I just can't help but think all this focus on counting is counterproductive for you, as you're in a healthy range already. But you are trying to put on a little muscle with the program you're on, so just eat a bit more than you normally do, or a bit more than what you need to stay satisfied. Like Steve said, an extra 250-500 calories should do.

I'm not sure that's helpful, but does it make sense? Do you feel like you have to count total calories to get it right?
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Yes, that makes a lot of sense, you learned how to exercise along with fat loss, and have accomplished a lot. Great job on that!

I lost 5 pounds of muscle and gained 2lbs. of fat (VERY upset by this).
First of all, the measures can be a little off depending on hydration state, etc... so perhaps consider that this could be more like a 2-3 pound muscle loss? It's impossible to know, precisely. Anyway the numbers are relatively small so don't sweat it... just start from where you are.

Anyway, my advice comes from not from a nutrition-expert point of view (which I am not... .however, you are!) but just from my experience of how one other body with some similarities seems to respond to this type of training.

I tend to think of muscle-building in two stages... this is very non-scientific, just what seems to happen: 1) building or re-building the muscle we were meant to have in the first place as a normal, healthy, strong person, and 2) building MORE muscle than that. The first stage seems to happen if one is doing ANY sort of intelligent strength training AND getting adequate food/rest/recovery. It also seems to happen while one is losing fat, if one is dieting. The second only happens if one is on a specific hypertrophy program and getting adequate food/rest/recovery, and doesn't seem to be likely at the same time as losing fat.

So obviously programming is key, and food/rest/recovery is key... but the difference may be, where are you on the spectrum of current muscle mass relative to your normal strong self, and what sort of program are you on? From your description, you are a little below the lean mass of your current strong self, and your program is a hypertrophy program. So as long as you do the program properly, and get adequate food/rest/recovery, you should be good.

Now what are the pitfalls?

Not doing the program properly might mean using weights that are too heavy (can't adequately recover or continue to perform sessions as designed) or too light (not adequately stimulating an adaptation of strength and muscle gain). Also, not correctly interpreting how to do the prescribed reps/sets, not doing them in the most effective manner or technique, skipping sessions, etc.... But let's assume all that is lined up and you are doing the program as designed.

Not eating enough, basically, this would end up showing up as inadequate recovery, not seeing strength gains as you go, the numbers on the scale not changing, and no change in body appearance or measurements.

Eating too much, would show up as the numbers on the scale going up too fast (maybe more than 2-3 pounds every 2-3 weeks? Not sure what is optimum here), and the changes in body appearance indicating fat gain more than muscle changes.

I still can't help with the calorie calculations, but once you select a number you think is right, I'd say go with it for 3 weeks and assess where you are with program progress, how you are feeling, your measurements, and your scale.... In that order. :)

I also have a habit of fasting (forgetting to eat)when I'm stressed.
And you probably need to address that one as well. :) Methods to de-stress, having reminders to eat anyway (are you able to eat if you have a reminder, when stressed?), and having healthy food available for time crunches.

Once again, I'm definitely no expert in this area, but I welcome the chance to think through some of these issues and I hope some of the ideas are helpful!
 

DancingLion

Level 1 Valued Member
Peaceful Greetings, DancingLion again. Back with my report card. I got an F-

Prior to breaking my thumb I was 148lbs 19% 119+lean muscle.

I took off 2+ months to heal up the thumb.

I reduced my calories since I wasn't training.(that was an error. I i
I lost muscle)

In July I did easy strength for 40 days straight to rehab thumb.(kb squats, press, row, deadlift, cleans).

In August I did the 300 swings a day for 30 days (10 days overlap with ES).

Just before resuming my training I went and got dunked and I was down to 143 21% body fat and had lost 5 lb of muscle that's when I contacted you good folks. I followed your advice and started at maintenance calories of 1636 for the first couple of weeks of KBM program and bumped it up to 1850 on training days for KBM program.

September I completed the "on ramp" of KB muscle program m/w/f.

(There was a 7day overlap the last week of August as I completed the 300 swings a day...too much cardio I'm guessing? They were double bell swings)

Food wise I did IF with a 4-6 hour feeding window 1850 average calories a day(maintenance is 1636) with a 24 hour fast weekly and one 48 hour fast and one 36 hour fast in the 5 week training time.

My weight didn't change at all from 143 in july. I'm still 143 but I'm down 5 MORE pounds of muscle.

So 10 pounds total gone in 6 months. where did I mess up? Got dunked today. I'm guessing not enough calories? I ate alot of carbs on training days( sometimes over 200g.) Clearly I need to course correct.

I'm extremely disappointed as I put my whole heart into the training for nothing.

Suggestions?

I'm not doing well. Though I busted my a#@ training and eat impeccable food. I'm 50 & in menopause. Apparently my metabolism doesn't know that and is speeding along faster than I'm eating for.

I'm all ears
Thanks for your time

DancingLion
 

DancingLion

Level 1 Valued Member
I just posted an update on my thread. I'd value your thoughts.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense, you learned how to exercise along with fat loss, and have accomplished a lot. Great job on that!

First of all, the measures can be a little off depending on hydration state, etc... so perhaps consider that this could be more like a 2-3 pound muscle loss? It's impossible to know, precisely. Anyway the numbers are relatively small so don't sweat it... just start from where you are.

Anyway, my advice comes from not from a nutrition-expert point of view (which I am not... .however, you are!) but just from my experience of how one other body with some similarities seems to respond to this type of training.

I tend to think of muscle-building in two stages... this is very non-scientific, just what seems to happen: 1) building or re-building the muscle we were meant to have in the first place as a normal, healthy, strong person, and 2) building MORE muscle than that. The first stage seems to happen if one is doing ANY sort of intelligent strength training AND getting adequate food/rest/recovery. It also seems to happen while one is losing fat, if one is dieting. The second only happens if one is on a specific hypertrophy program and getting adequate food/rest/recovery, and doesn't seem to be likely at the same time as losing fat.

So obviously programming is key, and food/rest/recovery is key... but the difference may be, where are you on the spectrum of current muscle mass relative to your normal strong self, and what sort of program are you on? From your description, you are a little below the lean mass of your current strong self, and your program is a hypertrophy program. So as long as you do the program properly, and get adequate food/rest/recovery, you should be good.

Now what are the pitfalls?

Not doing the program properly might mean using weights that are too heavy (can't adequately recover or continue to perform sessions as designed) or too light (not adequately stimulating an adaptation of strength and muscle gain). Also, not correctly interpreting how to do the prescribed reps/sets, not doing them in the most effective manner or technique, skipping sessions, etc.... But let's assume all that is lined up and you are doing the program as designed.

Not eating enough, basically, this would end up showing up as inadequate recovery, not seeing strength gains as you go, the numbers on the scale not changing, and no change in body appearance or measurements.

Eating too much, would show up as the numbers on the scale going up too fast (maybe more than 2-3 pounds every 2-3 weeks? Not sure what is optimum here), and the changes in body appearance indicating fat gain more than muscle changes.

I still can't help with the calorie calculations, but once you select a number you think is right, I'd say go with it for 3 weeks and assess where you are with program progress, how you are feeling, your measurements, and your scale.... In that order. :)



And you probably need to address that one as well. :) Methods to de-stress, having reminders to eat anyway (are you able to eat if you have a reminder, when stressed?), and having healthy food available for time crunches.

Once again, I'm definitely no expert in this area, but I welcome the chance to think through some of these issues and I hope some of the ideas are helpful!
 

DancingLion

Level 1 Valued Member
I just posted an update on my thread. I'd value your thoughts.

Eat to Perform -

They have a good calculator. It gives you the calories you need to maintain your weight.
Generally speaking adding 200-500 cals to that number will yield muscle gain.
However, I'd recommend starting with that number. Their calculator gives out a realativeley high figure. It will probably be enough to ensure muscle gain without fat gain. If you find you do not gain muscle simply add 200 cals and see again what happens.
 

DancingLion

Level 1 Valued Member
I just posted an update on my thread. I'd value your thoughts. I'm doing something very wrong as I've lost more muscle, zero fat and have been eating at 300 calories above maintenance with is 1636 give or take. My average for 5 weeks is 1850-1900. If you have any ideas I'd love to hear them.

Residual Lung Capacity

Based on what you didn't say, it appears they did not measure you Residual Lung Capacity. Without it, the plus/minus error factor is magnified.

Middle Number

Picking the middle number is one method of having a reference point. Another would be to average the three numbers, either method will provide you with some type of reference.

With that said, I have had my body fat percentage hydrostatically meaured with and without a Residual Lung
Capacity. There was a huge number difference.

I have also had my body fat percentage measured with Calipers, Ultra Sound and Infrared.

Research shows that all of the method that attempt to calculate body fat percentage are flawed, inaccurate.

The Pitfalls of Body Fat “Measurement”: Part 1

These series of articles examine the inaccuracy issue with the variety of method used.

I have become more of the use of a tape measure and mirror; another topic for another time. Ironically, this method is the primary one utilized by Pro Bodybuilders.



Determining Daily Caloric Needs

To reiterate, the various method of determining you Daily Caloric need is incredibly inaccurate.

Trip Analogy

A diet amount to taking a trip. You first need to find out where you are on the map.

The Three Day Recall Diet determines where you are on the map rather vaguely guessing via the variants of Metabolic Calculators.



I am not familiar with "Metabolic Menopausal Downshift", so I cannot comment.



Under Eating

Under eating by 1500 calories a day; that number doesn't make sense.



Cardio

As you know, preforming too much cardio impedes recovery.

Thus, your 3 -4 hours a week may have been too much, maybe not.

It determines how your cardio program was written and performed.



Future Reference Information

I am not sure exactly where you are going with the broken hand issue. My guess (guessing is never good) is that means you were preforming upper body and possibly lower body resistance exercises.

If that was the case, here's some future reference information ensure you minimize strength and atrophy, muscle loss with...

Crossover Strength Training in Physical Therapy | Mossberg Physical Therapy

Exercising the good limb has a cross over effect to the damaged limb you cannot train.

Thus, training the good limb enable you to minimize strength loss and muscle loss in the damaged limb.



Cannibalizing Muscle Mass

Usually, are in a caloric deficit you lose primarily body fat along with some muscle mass. That one of the reason there are "Weight Classes" in some sports.

Generally speaking, the majority of individual who are on a Caloric Deficit Diet will lose a greater percentage of body fat than muscle mass.

However, I would not exactly label it as "Cannibalizing Muscle Mass".

As you know, exercise ensure the body preserves more muscle muscle mass during a calorie deficit.

Another factor that ensure muscle mass is minimized during a calorie deficit is higher protein intake.



I have not idea what this term means.

['quote]so the plan is up my calories from 1600(maintenance) to 1800-1850 with a 16/8 fasted feeding window with an 24 hour fast thrown in after a cheat day (if I take one).
Caloric Intake

As I note in my previous post, research show that the most effective method of ensuring increasing in muscle mass and minimizing adding body fat is to increase your Daily Caloric Intake approximately 20% above your present intake.

Doing The Math

1600 kcal X 120% = 1920 kcal Per Day.

Thus, your 1800 -1850 is in the ball park.

Steve's 250 to 500 Per Day

This essentially falls into the 20% increase in Daily Caloric Intake prescribed in the research.

The American College of Sport Medicine recommendation for gaining weight is an increase of around 500 kcal per day.

I understand that individual preform to see a definitive number for caloric for gaining or losing weight.

However, the 20% Rule provide a much more personalized method for determining each individuals number.

An individual consuming 1200 kcal per day increasing their intake 500 kcal to 1700 kcal per day is a 40% increase.

An individual consuming 3000 kcal per day increasing their intake to 3500 kcal per day is a 16% increase.

Kenny Croxdale[/QUOTE]
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Hmmm... sorry to hear of your frustrations, @DancingLion !

I really don't have an input calorie count part of the equation. And the fasting, well... I have heard enough indicating that it may not work for women, older women, especially if hormone issues, can throw things off worse. So I don't go for it myself. But I don't know enough about it to advise.

300 swings a day sounds like a very stressful program to continue for any length of time. Do you work up a sweat, heavy breathing, heart rate up? If so, it may be too glycolytic, too stress- and cortisol-inducing... can be counterproductive to your efforts.

How do you know you lost 5 more pounds of muscle? If your weight is the same, and you actually did lose lean mass, then you would have more fat. Do you see it and feel it; i.e. clothes fit tighter, slightly puffier appearance, etc.?

How is your strength currently, compared to July? How do you feel, especially regarding energy levels, recover, and stress? Do you have a doctor monitoring your hormone levels?

My gut instinct (on limited information) is to say, relax, de-stress, eat a little more, eat more regularly (no long periods of fasting), ease up the training to be less volume but more strength, and make sure the training is enjoyable. Then see if you are getting stronger and feeling better. Then take a look at the scale and BF% numbers.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
@ DancingLion,

I am no expert, but for myself I toss my weight all over the map fairly easily.

If you are training harder you only need a little extra carbs unless your energy levels are shot, more protein is what's needed.

I have a very simple formula as a starting point for gaining /loosing weight. Go to bed not hungry or go to bed hungry. Counting too many calories is counter productive when trying to gain weight, just eat more later in the day to gain or eat less to lose.

Initially upon going into calorie surplus all that is going to happen is your energy levels will increase. After a week or three you should start to notice more muscle mass. I would wait a week and half at least to see the effect of a change unless you continue to lose weight. If its the same don't sweat it. If you look like you're gaining fat instead, train harder/longer, or reduce the amount of fat you're ingesting. It can take a bit for the body to make use of the added calories even if your strength program is a good fit for adding mass.

Once you see some muscle mass increasing make sure to keep it up, or even increase your protein calories. Again (and this is what works for me) if you notice persistent fat gains it is either too much dietary fat or your program is not aggressive enough for the calories you're taking in.

If you are persistently losing muscle and there is no underlying medical reason, your protein intake is too low or you need to increase the weights you're using.
 
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Kettlebelephant

Level 6 Valued Member
@kennycro@@aol.com talked about the Leucine-mTOR relationship and it's effect on hypertrophy here -> Meat, it's all you eat

I'd say don't focus on the exact number of calories too much. They are a guideline, but the human body is way more complex than those in-out numbers. For example like @Anna C mentioned stress & cortisol and there are a whole lot of other things that can affect weight loss/gain.
My gut instinct (on limited information) is to say, relax, de-stress, eat a little more, eat more regularly (no long periods of fasting)
I second this and incorporate the mTOR-effect -> eat more and more frequent with appropriate amounts of protein (especially Leucine)

I know that the following is speculative and a long shot, but did it ever occur to you that obsessing about what to eat, when to eat, meeting the exact amount of calories and not loosing muscle subconsciously causes you so much stress that it interferes with your goals?
 
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