Menopausal Woman about to do "Kettlebell Muscle" Program. Nutrition Help?

DancingLion

Double-Digit Post Count
Hi there Anna, thanks for coming back to weigh in. I know I lost more muscle because I went and got "dunked" today. ( body fat test truck/ hydrostatic testing) she redid it 3 times to be sure. My previous test was july. So I'm 143 now. I was 143 then. I lost 5 pounds of lean mass. From 115 to 110 today. It was a 300 swings for 30 day challenge I did for the month of August. Then I moved on to Geoff's Kettlebell Muscle program for 5 weeks. I went back in to see if I'd made any progress gaining muscle with his program. I had not.

My training with the swings was hard but doable. It was half double bell swings, half regular..The fact that it was daily with no recovery made it more difficult in my mind to Geoff's protocol which is is only 3 days a week.
I spoke to someone about my fasting and their input was that it wasn't supposed to be calorie restricting and that I should have added those missed calories back into the other days of the week in order to maintain a caloric surplus to build muscle. adding one or two 24-hour fast every week and my under eating I can see where I dropped 5 lb in two months right there. much less the heavy cardio aspect of 300 swings a day. In any case the fasting is out the door with my latest test results. My training is good. I felt my weak area was getting enough to eat and that I would improve my skills in that department by tracking my macros more closely. not sure if I've crossed the line into Obsession just yet(I'm pretty disapointed that all this training has been for nothing. I was proud of my diligent efforts) I was trying to learn macro tracking and apply it and therefore do better overall. I want to build muscle. I'm training hard and eating really clean. I'm sad that's not working. I wanted to succeed at this.


Hmmm... sorry to hear of your frustrations, @DancingLion !

I really don't have an input calorie count part of the equation. And the fasting, well... I have heard enough indicating that it may not work for women, older women, especially if hormone issues, can throw things off worse. So I don't go for it myself. But I don't know enough about it to advise.

300 swings a day sounds like a very stressful program to continue for any length of time. Do you work up a sweat, heavy breathing, heart rate up? If so, it may be too glycolytic, too stress- and cortisol-inducing... can be counterproductive to your efforts.

How do you know you lost 5 more pounds of muscle? If your weight is the same, and you actually did lose lean mass, then you would have more fat. Do you see it and feel it; i.e. clothes fit tighter, slightly puffier appearance, etc.?

How is your strength currently, compared to July? How do you feel, especially regarding energy levels, recover, and stress? Do you have a doctor monitoring your hormone levels?

My gut instinct (on limited information) is to say, relax, de-stress, eat a little more, eat more regularly (no long periods of fasting), ease up the training to be less volume but more strength, and make sure the training is enjoyable. Then see if you are getting stronger and feeling better. Then take a look at the scale and BF% numbers.
 

DancingLion

Double-Digit Post Count
I very much appreciate your input. Thank you. I think its the protein. I didn't come close for 2-3 weeks out of 5 and I was working overtime and student so extremely short on sleep (like only getting 4-5 hours a night for weeks!) I REFUSED to miss any training sessions. Add in the 24-48 hour fasts and It's coming clearer to me how this happened. I also didn't go as heavy as I could have because I'd just come off of zero training for several months due to a fractured hand. I was so dang happy to train again I went overboard. Sounds like I had a perfect storm of errors here. I will take everyone's advice and ditch the fasting, get my sleep and protein in and no more 300 swings a day challenges for a while unless I need to cut at some time in the future. Thank you for taking the time out to respond. I was feeling pretty discouraged.

@ DancingLion,

I am no expert, but for myself I toss my weight all over the map fairly easily.

If you are training harder you only need a little extra carbs unless your energy levels are shot, more protein is what's needed.

I have a very simple formula as a starting point for gaining /loosing weight. Go to bed not hungry or go to bed hungry. Counting too many calories is counter productive when trying to gain weight, just eat more later in the day to gain or eat less to lose.

Initially upon going into calorie surplus all that is going to happen is your energy levels will increase. After a week or three you should start to notice more muscle mass. I would wait a week and half at least to see the effect of a change unless you continue to lose weight. If its the same don't sweat it. If you look like you're gaining fat instead, train harder/longer, or reduce the amount of fat you're ingesting. It can take a bit for the body to make use of the added calories even if your strength program is a good fit for adding mass.

Once you see some muscle mass increasing make sure to keep it up, or even increase your protein calories. Again (and this is what works for me) if you notice persistent fat gains it is either too much dietary fat or your program is not aggressive enough for the calories you're taking in.

If you are persistently losing muscle and there is no underlying medical reason, your protein intake is too low or you need to increase the weights you're using.
 

Anna C

More than 5000 posts
Elite Certified Instructor
I know I lost more muscle because I went and got "dunked" today. ( body fat test truck/ hydrostatic testing)
"Dunked", oh OK. I haven't had that sort of testing, but I've had the Bod Pod. Both are supposed to be very accurate.

working overtime and student so extremely short on sleep (like only getting 4-5 hours a night for weeks!) I REFUSED to miss any training sessions. Add in the 24-48 hour fasts and It's coming clearer to me how this happened.
Stress adds up... "all stress comes out of the same bucket" as Brett Jones says. Most experts recommend skipping your training for the day or going significantly lighter if you are short on sleep or otherwise under-recovered.

ditch the fasting, get my sleep and protein in and no more 300 swings a day challenges for a while unless I need to cut at some time in the future
Sounds good, keep us posted! What will you do for training, continue with the Kettlebell Muscle program? Are you able to follow the guidelines within it?
 

DancingLion

Double-Digit Post Count
I will release the 300 swings a day and begin the "on ramp" version of Kettlebell Muscle program again. I did the 5 week on ramp and wasn't eating properly, was very sleep deprived and low on protien so I will apply the course corrections suggested and begin again. Most importantly including the part about relaxing and enjoying my training and not beating myself up over minutiae! it's funny that I had GREAT results when I was not tracking my eating at all and since I've started my enjoyment level has plummeted and so have my results. let's see if I can "get that loving feeling back " I so appreciate your energy and encouragement. Thank you again.

"Dunked", oh OK. I haven't had that sort of testing, but I've had the Bod Pod. Both are supposed to be very accurate.



Stress adds up... "all stress comes out of the same bucket" as Brett Jones says. Most experts recommend skipping your training for the day or going significantly lighter if you are short on sleep or otherwise under-recovered.



Sounds good, keep us posted! What will you do for training, continue with the Kettlebell Muscle program? Are you able to follow the guidelines within it?
 

DancingLion

Double-Digit Post Count
CoSign! I am going to take a breath and start anew far more relaxed about the "numbers" and give my inner nitpicking geek something else to fixate on I've been meaning to write a paper about the doctrine of signatures... that oughta keep "her" busy...or basket weaving perhaps? Thanks again for weighing in. It was difficult reaching out, glad I did.

Probably a good prescription for many of us...
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
it's funny that I had GREAT results when I was not tracking my eating at all and since I've started my enjoyment level has plummeted and so have my results. let's see if I can "get that loving feeling back " I so appreciate your energy and encouragement. Thank you again.
You really don't need anything more than whatever gear you're training with, your RPE and a mirror to gauge how well its going. Step on the scale once a week, save the dunk tank for the carnival :D.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I'd say don't focus on the exact number of calories too much. They are a guideline, but the human body is way more complex than those in-out numbers.
Calorie Count

Gaining and or losing weight is all about about your caloric deficit or surplus. Thus, the FOCUS need be on caloric intake.

Vaguely knowing the amount of calories amount to taking a trip without plotting out your destination. Vaguely know you destination is north and taking road that go north.

If you drive long enough, you will get to your destination eventually. However, you going burn time and gas driving around in a maze until you do.

For example like mentioned stress & cortisol and there are a whole lot of other things that can affect weight loss/gain.
Weight Loss/Gain

The majority of individual trying to gain weight, don't eat enough. Some of their catch phrases is, "I eat a lot" or and "I eat all the time".

What does "A lot mean" or "All the time mean".

The majority of individuals who can't lose weight state, "I don't eat that much". What does "Not tha much mean"?

Research also shows that many of those who stated they "Count Calories" are "Under Reporting", eaging more than they really are.

While other factors do affect weight gain or loss, they are a minuscule for the majority of those on a Gain Weight or Weight Loss Diet.

Essentially, for the individuals it an excuse, they blame the program rather than accepting the fact that they are not adhering to the program.

I understand the some individual have metabolic issues or genetic traits create problem with gaining or losing weight.

Kenny Crodale
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I have a very simple formula as a starting point for gaining /loosing weight. Go to bed not hungry or go to bed hungry. Counting too many calories is counter productive when trying to gain weight, just eat more later in the day to gain or eat less to lose.
Counting Calories

It is essentially when trying to gaining or lose weight.

To gain or lose weight, you need to know how many calories you consume on a daily basis. A "Three Day Recall" provide you with your daily average.

You then need to increase or decrease the number of caloires (count what you consume) to ensure you obtaining the right amount.

"Eat More Later"

Consuming more calories is the primary key to gaining weight. It doesn't matter when you eat.

Initially upon going into calorie surplus all that is going to happen is your energy levels will increase.
This is a vague statement.

Do you mean eating more will give you more energy to workout or do more? If so, that's not necessarily true.

Do you mean you metabolic rate will increase? If so, it will but it will take a few weeks before that occures.

After a week or three you should start to notice more muscle mass. I would wait a week and half at least to see the effect of a change...
This is a good point.

If you look like you're gaining fat instead, train harder/longer, or reduce the amount of fat you're ingesting.
Train Harder/Longer

Train harder and longer than what. If someone is maxing out every workout and training four hours, does that mean really mean that they need to go ever harder or bump up their training to five or six hours a day?

One of the biggest issue with message board generic training recommendations based on very little knowledge about an individual.

Reducing The Amount of Fat

In other word, reduce that amount of calories is what it come down.

... if you notice persistent fat gains it is either too much dietary fat ...
Fat Phobic

You don't need to be fat phobic, you need to be sensitive to caloric intake.

If you are persistently losing muscle and there is no underlying medical reason, your protein intake is too low ...
Yes, the right amount of protein is important.

[/QUOTE]...or you need to increase the weights you're using.[/QUOTE]

Gaining Muscle

The key to increasing muscle mass with a resistance training program is dependent on a well written program.

The sole focus of "Increase the weights" is a recipe for a disaster.

Kenny Croxdale
 

DancingLion

Double-Digit Post Count
Hi Kenny, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I was tracking my protien and my calories. I fell significantly under my protien for 2.5 of 5 weeks. Clearly that cost me. I took your recommendation of getting my "3 day average" calories including a non calorie restricted weekend day. The number was 1850. My resting was (supposedly) 1636. So I waved up and down from day to day but on average( adding all calories consumed for the month and divided by 30) I ate right at 1850 a day. That is clearly not enough. It's clearly not even maintenance for me as I dropped 5 additional pounds of muscle on that number.

Since my re-dunk a few days ago I bumped my calories up to 2000 a day and my protien up to 143g daily which is my current weight. knowing that some days I might not hit that number but will not go under 110g which is my current lean mass. I'll also be more diligent about getting more sleep as that surely was a factor as well. I've cut out doing 300 swings a day and will just be doing Geoff's KB Muscle program 3 days a week with my hot yoga class in between. I'm also dropping the weekly 24hour fasts. If you can think of anything else I'm not considering please do let me know.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

DancingLion

Counting Calories

It is essentially when trying to gaining or lose weight.

To gain or lose weight, you need to know how many calories you consume on a daily basis. A "Three Day Recall" provide you with your daily average.

You then need to increase or decrease the number of caloires (count what you consume) to ensure you obtaining the right amount.

"Eat More Later"

Consuming more calories is the primary key to gaining weight. It doesn't matter when you eat.



This is a vague statement.

Do you mean eating more will give you more energy to workout or do more? If so, that's not necessarily true.

Do you mean you metabolic rate will increase? If so, it will but it will take a few weeks before that occures.



This is a good point.



Train Harder/Longer

Train harder and longer than what. If someone is maxing out every workout and training four hours, does that mean really mean that they need to go ever harder or bump up their training to five or six hours a day?

One of the biggest issue with message board generic training recommendations based on very little knowledge about an individual.

Reducing The Amount of Fat

In other word, reduce that amount of calories is what it come down.



Fat Phobic

You don't need to be fat phobic, you need to be sensitive to caloric intake.



Yes, the right amount of protein is important.
...or you need to increase the weights you're using.[/QUOTE]

Gaining Muscle

The key to increasing muscle mass with a resistance training program is dependent on a well written program.

The sole focus of "Increase the weights" is a recipe for a disaster.

Kenny Croxdale[/QUOTE]
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
Counting Calories

It is essentially when trying to gaining or lose weight.

To gain or lose weight, you need to know how many calories you consume on a daily basis. A "Three Day Recall" provide you with your daily average.

You then need to increase or decrease the number of caloires (count what you consume) to ensure you obtaining the right amount.

"Eat More Later"

Consuming more calories is the primary key to gaining weight. It doesn't matter when you eat.
Actually, the total calories is not really important, it is how many calories above or below your surplus break point. Total calories is nice to know but only of you can put it in context, which requires a good handle on your intended workload and rest periods, something I don't believe is well defined yet.
So, eat more to gain, eat less to lose, adjust to the results. Count calories and dial it in after you have established a trend. Until then don't stress the details. Rough cut first, finish cut second.


Re time of day, if you eat carbs later in the day and have more circulating glucose when you go to sleep, you will burn less fat overnight. The same amount of carbs earlier in the day = energy for your workout and the unused will be stored. Again I agree this is not a huge effect, but when puzzling out a diet for lean gains all of this stuff takes on greater importance.

This is a vague statement. Do you mean eating more will give you more energy to workout or do more? If so, that's not necessarily true. Do you mean you metabolic rate will increase? If so, it will but it will take a few weeks before that occures.
Increase anybody's calories above a balanced level and they will not immediately begin to gain weight. Assuming a good mix of macronutrients they will or should notice more energy as the first result. This might only last a few days to a week or so, but the initial response aught to be increased energy reserves. This plays directly to some of my recommendations re intensity, longer/harder etc. Volume builds muscle.

If you only eat more fat, yes you might see very little increase. A bump in quality carbs and protein will provide more energy.


Train Harder/Longer

Train harder and longer than what. If someone is maxing out every workout and training four hours, does that mean really mean that they need to go ever harder or bump up their training to five or six hours a day?

One of the biggest issue with message board generic training recommendations based on very little knowledge about an individual.
That's why I prefaced my response with "what has worked for me".
Reducing The Amount of Fat

In other word, reduce that amount of calories is what it come down.

Fat Phobic

You don't need to be fat phobic, you need to be sensitive to caloric intake.
If you are increasing your fat stores and not increasing muscle mass while training, to me, it means you are eating too much fat (for the amount of total calories you are burning, the ratio of macros is off), or are eating too many total calories including carbs, and thus not relying as much on fat stores when in a lo energy output. In the latter case, the lack of muscle gains make that scenario a bit unlikely.

The easiest way to reduce bodyfat, all other factors being equal, is to eat less fat.


If you train harder/longer this will burn up some of those "excess" calories. Is also possible the lack of training intensity is not enough to trigger hypertrophy, so a little longer/higher intensity fixes both of these issues. Lacking context I agree it is just a blanket statement, but this IS a trouble shooting bull session.

Gaining Muscle

The key to increasing muscle mass with a resistance training program is dependent on a well written program.

The sole focus of "Increase the weights" is a recipe for a disaster.

Kenny Croxdale
If your rep count is too high to trigger hypertrophy, you need to increase the weights to put your reps back down to the 6-12 range. Specific details of the workout aren't listed, so I'm putting it out there. For hypertrophy, best practices include training to the edge (or beyond) tech failure in that rep range. Loads might not be optimized for this. There IS a reason why OP is gaining fat to muscle even while training a program. These are possibilities I have run into myself.
 
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kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Actually, the total calories is not really important...
It Is Vital

In any "Road Trip" you first need to find out where you are on the map.

...eat more to gain, eat less to lose, adjust to the results.
Driving Around Aimlessly

Eat more around to trying to find you destination by driving around in a maze until you find you destination. If you drive around long enough in a maze, you will eventually get to your destination; poor planning and wasted time.

If you only eat more fat, yes you might see very little increase. A bump in quality carbs and protein will provide more energy.
Not Necessarily So

There more calories "energy" in fats than carbohydrates or protein on a gram per gram basis.

Thus, this is vague information that says nothing.

The easiest way to reduce bodyfat, all other factors being equal, is to eat less fat.
Not So

The most effective method of decreasing body fat via diet is to consume fewer calories. It does NOT matter the deficit comes from carbohydrates, fats or protein.

You don't need to be "Fat Phobic".

[quote[If you train harder/longer this will burn up some of those "excess" calories.[/quote]

Diet Over Exercise

The amount of calories burned during exercise is minuscule relative to diet.

Diet is the key to weight loss. Exercise is a VERY poor vehicle for weight loss.

As the sayings go...

"You can't out train a bad diet", "Abs are made at the table" and "The best exercise is pushing back from the table when eating" are true.

If your rep count is too high to trigger hypertrophy, you need to increase the weights to put your reps back down to the 6-12 range.
Not So

Research has demonstrated the meta high repetition are effective for increasing muscle mass.

There plenty of research and empirical data online regarding this.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Kettlebelephant

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Calorie Count

Gaining and or losing weight is all about about your caloric deficit or surplus. Thus, the FOCUS need be on caloric intake.

Vaguely knowing the amount of calories amount to taking a trip without plotting out your destination. Vaguely know you destination is north and taking road that go north.

If you drive long enough, you will get to your destination eventually. However, you going burn time and gas driving around in a maze until you do.
Just be clear I said to "not focus on the exact number too much".
There's a difference between not going for the exact number and vaguely knowing it.
For example eating 100g of chicken breast. How much calories are in 100g of chicken breast? The amount of calories varies from source to source on the internet. Of course not by as much as 250cals or so, but it varies, so you can't know the absolut exact number.
Then you throw the chicken in the pan and cook it. Water and fat come out of it. Do you lick the pan clean after you took the chicken breast out to eat it? No, so you didn't eat all the fat that was in the chicken breast and therefore you didn't eat all the calories in the 100g chicken breast. Combine that with the fact that you didn't 100% exactly knew how many calories there are in the 100g and you probably end up writing down a number of consumed calories that is off by 10-30cals.
Multiply that by your whole day of cooking and eating food and you're probably off by 100-200cals.
Hence my original statement of not focusing on the exact number, but using it as a guideline.
In this special case it would mean don't obsess about hitting exactly 1636cal, but round that up to 1700cal and don't freak out if at the end of the day you read your journal and realise you consumed 1775 or 1800cal.
 
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North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
It Is Vital

In any "Road Trip" you first need to find out where you are on the map.



Driving Around Aimlessly

Eat more around to trying to find you destination by driving around in a maze until you find you destination. If you drive around long enough in a maze, you will eventually get to your destination; poor planning and wasted time.
OP is losing muscle mass and gaining fat - sounds like there should be no problems making initial changes to the diet without getting out the notebook. OP also is feeling like training is loosing its fun factor, counting calories is contraindicated. Save counting calories for after the ball gets rolling. Some people make all manner of comp changes without ever needing to count calories.


There more calories "energy" in fats than carbohydrates or protein on a gram per gram basis.

Thus, this is vague information that says nothing.
OP isn't in Ketosis, more dietary fat beyond what is needed for nutritional balance and low steady state activity is a bad idea. Carbs are going to be the primary fuel for hypertrophic work.

Not So

The most effective method of decreasing body fat via diet is to consume fewer calories. It does NOT matter the deficit comes from carbohydrates, fats or protein.

You don't need to be "Fat Phobic".

If you train harder/longer this will burn up some of those "excess" calories.
Diet Over Exercise

The amount of calories burned during exercise is minuscule relative to diet.

Diet is the key to weight loss. Exercise is a VERY poor vehicle for weight loss.

As the sayings go...

"You can't out train a bad diet", "Abs are made at the table" and "The best exercise is pushing back from the table when eating" are true.
If you maintain the same number of calories and reduce dietary fat, you will decrease the amount of fat that will potentially go into storage. If it doesn't go in your mouth it won't be digested. Recall, the OP is gaining body fat while losing muscle. A reduction in dietary fat and increasing protein would be my initial response. Reducing overall calories would not make the list of possible changes.

The number of people who are overweight and follow a regular exercise regimen are significantly lower than the number of overweight sedentary folks. Whatever the science says in a tightly controlled environment, common sense says otherwise.




Not So
Research has demonstrated the meta high repetition are effective for increasing muscle mass.

There plenty of research and empirical data online regarding this.

Kenny Croxdale
Research has demonstrated going to failure with high numbers of reps produces spikes in hypertrophic precursors. Further research showed that high rep work DOES produce hypertrophy but is a fraction of the gains one gets from working in the time honored range of 6-12 (8-10 optimal).

You can increase your 1RM doing long sets of 40% 1RM work, but you will get much larger increases in the same time frame by doing sets of 3-5 with closer to 90% 1RM.
 
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kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
OP is losing muscle mass and gaining fat - sounds like there should be no problems making initial changes to the diet without getting out the notebook.
Diet Road Map

To reiterate, you first need to find out where you are on the "Diet Road Map" rather than guessing.

more dietary fat beyond what is needed for nutritional balance and low steady state activity is a bad idea. Carbs are going to be the primary fuel for hypertrophic work.
Not So.

The key to increasing weight is to increased caloric intake, irregardless of it being fat, carbohydrates or protein.

How did you determine that carbs = hypertrophy?

If you maintain the same number of calories and reduce dietary fat, you will decrease the amount of fat that will potentially go into storage.
Not So

The "Eat Fat" and "Get Fat" believe died long time ago. However, the problem is statement like this keep it alive.

A reduction in dietary fat and increasing protein would be my initial response.
A Reduction in Calories it the key to losing weight. It doesn't matter where it comes from.

Research does indicate that it preserves muscle mass during a deficit.

Reducing overall calories would not make the list of possible changes.
Calorie Reduction should be at the top of the list for weight loss.

Research has demonstrated going to failure with high numbers of reps produces spikes in hypertrophic precursors. Further research showed that high rep work DOES produce hypertrophy but is a fraction of the gains one gets from working in the time honored range of 6-12 (8-10 optimal).
Based on what research study?

Kenny Crodale
 
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kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
my original statement of not focusing on the exact number, but using it as a guideline.
In this special case it would mean don't obsess about hitting exactly 1636cal, but round that up to 1700cal and don't freak out if at the end of the day you read your journal and realise you consumed 1775 or 1800cal.
Yes, that works.

Kenny Croxdale
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
Diet Road Map

To reiterate, you first need to find out where you are on the "Diet Road Map" rather than guessing.



Not So.

The key to increasing weight is to increased caloric intake, irregardless of it being fat, carbohydrates or protein.

How did you determine that carbs = hypertrophy?
If you eat more fat above the body's energy needs it will wind up stored for later. People not in Ketosis need very little fat stores to power low energy state activities.

Higher volume = more reps in the 6-12 (15/20/30/?) range, making this glycolytic work. "Fast" Gylcolysis begins immediately when the effort exceeds aerobic output, nearly equals Phosphagen ATP production at about 5-8 seconds and surpasses phosphagen ATP by 10-12 seconds. A set of 10+ reps is going to take 30 seconds or more.

Carbs don't = hypertrophy, they = fuel for glycolysis. Even at higher reps the body will preferentially use pyruvate for aerobic ATP production if the intensity is high. Unless one is making ketone bodies those carbs are very important to the process.



Not So

The "Eat Fat" and "Get Fat" believe died long time ago. However, the problem is statement like this keep it alive.

A Reduction in Calories it the key to losing weight. It doesn't matter where it comes from.
Research does indicate that it preserves muscle mass during a deficit.

Calorie Reduction should be at the top of the list for weight loss.
The body does not casually make fat from excess carbs, but it will store fat readily and use less of it if carbs and protein are in good supply. This is not a myth.

More importantly, OP isn't trying to lose weight, she's trying to gain lean muscle but is increasing fat instead. Eating more fat or reducing overall caloric intake is not going to put muscle on her.

Based on what research study?
Kenny Crodale
ARTICLES | Journal of Applied Physiology

------Specifically, this study compared 10 sets x 36 reps using 15.5% 1RM to 10 sets x 8 reps using 70% 1RM. The study ran 12 weeks, with 3 workouts each week.

10×8 program produced a 7.6% increase in muscle size (hypertrophy) and a 35% increase in 1RM (one rep maximum).

The 10×36 program produced a 2.6% increase in muscle size and a 19% increase in 1RM.----

Consider the much greater amounts of training time needed to get results in the higher rep range.
There are other studies showing a blurring of effects that is not as pronounced as this study, but the trend exists. Also consistant are the longer training times needed to see results from higher rep regimens.

Edit to add:
Anyway, this thread is turning into something maybe not so helpful.

All the best to DancingLion, please let us know how you get on and what flipped the switch for you (I'm certain you'll get sorted out, determination is 100% of success when it comes to fitness and you seem plenty determined).
 
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DancingLion

Double-Digit Post Count
Your friendly neighborhood DancingLion here with my updated report card... I'm going to give myself an A+ :) When I last posted I had lost 10lbs total of muscle in 3 months and gained 5lbs of fat doing high volume swings (300 a day), I was eating 1850 calories(thinking my maintenance was 1675). I was doing Geoff's Kettlebell Muscle program and LOSING muscle. As of Monday night I'm up from 143 to 149 with a gain of 7.2lbs of muscle and .6 loss of fat. I'll take it!!:D

What I did; I trained M/W/F the following complex

Double swing-clean-squat-press-pushup-ren. row- 8 double sumo Deadlifts. That was 1 rep. M=4sets, W=3sets F=5sets. I used double 30lb bells for the complex and double 55lb bells for the deadlifts.

Diet- 2300 calories a day (I REALLY thought that was WAY too much food. I was convinced that I was only putting on fat because to my eyes I looked "fluffy")

I slept until I naturally woke every day. No alarm. (I'd been severely sleep deprived for a year..like 3-4 hours a day:() I got in no less than 120g of protein a day and VERY high carbs. Not on purpose, I just really like rosemary crackers with balsamic vinaigrette cheese... and wild rice..lots of wild rice with ghee. Indian clubs and lacrosse balls rolling on off days, sports massage once every week. I am shocked I put on zero fat, actually dropped 1/2lb. of fat. Okay, that's the protocol I used. Now what? I'm a muscle ho right now. That's almost all the muscle lost returned to me. Will another cycle like that yield similar results? Or is now a good time to try and lose some of this fat? Thoughts? 1511989804467697717955.jpg
 
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DancingLion

Double-Digit Post Count
I'm back with an update... if you have time to weigh in on next strategy I'd appreciate it!:)

@kennycro@@aol.com talked about the Leucine-mTOR relationship and it's effect on hypertrophy here -> Meat, it's all you eat

I'd say don't focus on the exact number of calories too much. They are a guideline, but the human body is way more complex than those in-out numbers. For example like @Anna C mentioned stress & cortisol and there are a whole lot of other things that can affect weight loss/gain.

I second this and incorporate the mTOR-effect -> eat more and more frequent with appropriate amounts of protein (especially Leucine)

I know that the following is speculative and a long shot, but did it ever occur to you that obsessing about what to eat, when to eat, meeting the exact amount of calories and not loosing muscle subconsciously causes you so much stress that it interferes with your goals?
 

DancingLion

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I'm back with an update... if you have time to weigh in on next strategy I'd appreciate it!:)

You really don't need anything more than whatever gear you're training with, your RPE and a mirror to gauge how well its going. Step on the scale once a week, save the dunk tank for the carnival :D.
 
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