Messing with the ROP...

Discussion in 'Kettlebell' started by JCORN, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. JCORN

    JCORN Double-Digit Post Count

    Let me know if this is a bad idea. I'm currently doing ROP with a 16 bell. I switched from S&S for lack of progress but since reading on this forum, I realize I have been going about progression all wrong. I was totally focused on always finishing in 5 minutes, never on perfect form or the talk test. Mainly the swings were difficult to progress, I can use the 32 for TGU, just have never timed my self. What do you all think about continuing ROP with the 16 until reaching 5x5 ladders, but instead of doing timed swings at a percentage of max effort, doing perfect S&S swings? I would keep the light days with the snatch. I'm thinking this will help me progress faster to 'simple'.

    Any thoughts are appreciated, thanks for being a kick a#@ forum!
  2. Sean M

    Sean M Strong, Powerful Member of the Forum

    Doing swings in RoP “S&S” style 10x10 with rest periods “by feel” is do-able, just not RoP “by the book”. A loose but I think orthodox view of swings in RoP is preparation for the snatch test, and other protocols often call for heavy(er) one-arm swing sessions in the week in addition to snatch sessions.

    For example, Brett Jones’ SFG Prep program has a swing/snatch protocol that fits nicely after RoP ladders (in my opinion):
    StrongFirst SFG Kettlebell Certification Prep Guide | StrongFirst
    Sauli likes this.
  3. rickyw

    rickyw Strong Member of the Forum

    RoP went easiest for me when I just did it as written.

    I know others have combined the press ladders with S&S swings. I tried doing this but swinging for a powerful 10x10 after all those presses was a bit much. I preferred using a bit of a lighter bell and swinging as prescribed in RoP.
    ShawnM and Bret S. like this.
  4. BrianCF

    BrianCF Triple-Digit Post Count

    Congrats on getting a TGU with the 32.

    It sounds to me like conditioning is the issue.

    Continue doing the ROP as written. Swing with a lighter bell. You're in the beginning stages of the goal. So who cares if you're swinging a 24 or a 16? Use the 16 and progress. Then use the 20 or 24 and progress. Build a track record of success

    On variety days do 5 TGU's and do 200 swings with a heavier bell. 20 sets of 10 at the top of each minute? Just make sure the form is perfect. I personally think you can do swings on your days off if you want, but you don't have to.
    Shahaf Levin likes this.
  5. BrianCF

    BrianCF Triple-Digit Post Count

    Also you could throw some squats in on variety days as well
  6. Sean M

    Sean M Strong, Powerful Member of the Forum

    I actually agree with this more than what I wrote myself.

    RoP is designed for one bell, limited by what you can press 5-8 times. You will almost certainly be able to swing a heavier bell than you can strict press. Snatch is in the middle of the two (typically).

    I stuck to the book my last run of RoP (20kg) and for Heavy day used two-arm swings, letting them really rip. Medium was one-arm swings for 75% of the pace (reps per minute) of Heavy day, and snatch was it's own progression (independent of the swings) but started at half the pace of the Heavy day swings. That's how I interpreted the 100%/75%/50% guideline in the book.
    rickyw likes this.
  7. Marc

    Marc Strong Member of the Forum

    RoP revolves mainly around the press, I would say.
    Therefore I see no reason not to combine it with swings. Your press will most likely keep progressing.

    In fact I might use this very approach myself in the somewhat nearer future (fall or winter).
    I am not interested in the single snatch because it is probably my strongest exercise.
    Here is how I would probably do it:

    1: RoP press ladders (maybe alternated with pullups)

    2: KB front squats: 5x3 or 5x5

    3: 1H swings: 10x10 S&S style
    runninggirevik likes this.
  8. JCORN

    JCORN Double-Digit Post Count

    Thanks for the replies! How did I miss that ROP is supposed to be the same size bell for pressing and swings?? I need to go back and do some reading comprehension excercices...

    Given that it is summer and I am active with hiking, mtn biking, etc, it sounds like a great idea to do ROP as written, not to add anything additional at this time. Patience is a virtue.
  9. JCORN

    JCORN Double-Digit Post Count

    I appreciate the reminder on slow steady progress. I think its easy to get ahead of myself and push too hard, but my goal is for long-term strength and health, not short term numbers.
  10. Sean M

    Sean M Strong, Powerful Member of the Forum

    Somewhere he does say (regarding upping the swing weight) “It’s your call”, so you could swing different weight than pressing - but it’s easier to keep the weight constant and vary the intensity (reps per minute) and volume (by dice roll).
  11. John Grahill

    John Grahill Triple-Digit Post Count

    The R.O.P. is an awesome program. I would just do it as written. Rarely have I had success combining programs.
    rickyw and Mirek like this.
  12. Sauli

    Sauli Strong, Powerful Member of the Forum

  13. Sean M

    Sean M Strong, Powerful Member of the Forum

    Haven’t done it myself - but by “fits nicely” I mean it is three days of swing/snatch,10-15 minutes each time, and aimed toward the same goal as RoP: snatch test.
    Sauli likes this.
  14. IonRod

    IonRod Triple-Digit Post Count

    I am going to immediately confess - I modified the ballistic portion of RoP. Now here is the full confession.

    One of the benefits I experienced of reaching Simple before I did RoP was that I have greater freedom, so to speak, in choosing my swinging session. There is more variety and I can always accurately assess my level of exaustion that day to adjust for the "finisher", i.e. swings. So for example, on Heavy day I have no problem doing 10x10 swings with 32kg in 10 minutes. I know that I can do it any day regardless of my energy level. Still, it is challenging enough to be a good finisher after 5 heavy ladders. On a Medium day I can experiment with a lot of different swing variation - one handed non-stop, two handed non-stop, heavier (40kg) bell practice. Recently I am even trying to experiment with an additional snatch session and I think it's going great.

    I think Pavel made the ballistic portion of RoP easier when the book was written, because Program Minimum was short and didn't build the kind of base you get after completing Simple. I would strongly recommend being patient and sticking to S&S for longer (now that you know some of the mistakes you made) and building the base there. Not to mention, I think TGUs prepare your shoulders for the high volume of presses like nothing else.
    Kozushi likes this.
  15. Kozushi

    Kozushi Strong, Powerful, Explosively Athletic Member of the Forum

    I think the 5 minute time test can go jump off a... :) It's a "test" and not something to be concerned with every day. I've never met it with the 32kg bell. Who cares?

    How about S&S 2-3 times a week with some other days devoted to pressing similarly to the ROP method? (Secret - I do this).
    Brookes likes this.
  16. Brookes

    Brookes Triple-Digit Post Count

    Thats also what I´m trying right now for six weeks. S&S days alternating with days where I´m doing a long OS-session or skills training with a lighter bell followed by ROP-style ladders. To be honest I would prefer to do S&S daily combined with OS, but I need a little bit variety from time to time to keep me motivated, since I do love the press! :)
    Kozushi likes this.
  17. Sean M

    Sean M Strong, Powerful Member of the Forum

    "Shower thought" today: S&S near-daily, but with one day of the week of: 1 ladder to 5, 1 ladder to 4, 1-3 ladders to 3. That is 31 to 43 quality reps and the hardest ladders are first. For the ladders to 3, you could do a different variant such as bottoms-up or half-kneeling for extra tension practice.
    Brookes and Kozushi like this.
  18. Kozushi

    Kozushi Strong, Powerful, Explosively Athletic Member of the Forum

    The S&S book mentions doing "serious lifting" alongside S&S.
    Steve Freides and Brookes like this.
  19. Kozushi

    Kozushi Strong, Powerful, Explosively Athletic Member of the Forum

    ...and Pavel has lots of other resources to guide you in your "serious lifting" alongside S&S. I'm following advice from both Power To The People and Enter The Kettlebell, but also from some articles Pavel has on this site regarding my (probably permanent) foray into "serious lifting". I have to say though that S&S did give me a lot of strength beyond just doing stuff with a 32kg or 40kg weight!

    I am very thankful to Steve Frieds for encouraging me to get a barbell and start deadlifting. This is now another beloved and exciting part of my life and it's doing new wonders for my judo too. The ETK book convinced me to take pressing seriously, and I'm reaping the benefit of this other relatively easy to do and time saving move.
  20. JCORN

    JCORN Double-Digit Post Count

    Thanks for all the input! This forum is incredibly helpful, informative, and motivating. I’m sitting in a puddle of sweat after my ‘heavy’ day rolling 9 minutes of swings. With all of the a+a, strong endurance, etc, should I really be red lining it on swings? Or am I reading ROP wrong again?

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