Mitochondrial damage from hiit

Jalvarado

Level 1 Valued Member
I’m not able to get back to the book right now Q&D.. would someone with more knowledge either summarize the depiction from the book about hyper glycolytic training such as metcons or HIIT causing high levels of acid build up, causing free radicals damaging mitochondria? Wherever I look for a study of this only positive effects are talked about from HIIT or metcon circuits adding to growth of mitochondria and longevity. Is this more of a theory from Pavel or are there actual studies I can check out? I have listened to a podcast focused on stating that high glycolic training can negatively affect the gut biome.
 

randyh

Level 2 Valued Member
It’s a matter of “ if a little is good, when does more become too much?”

This paper Error - Cookies Turned Off sums up the problems for certain populations of trying to use Wingate HIIT protocols. It does a nice job of showing how well three workouts a week, making up a total of an hour of training a week of low volume HIIT over two weeks works really well. It’s kinda AGT-ish, actually.

It does seem that H+ concentrations damages MT: oxidation occurs but phosphorylation does not so all that energy leaks away as heat. (kind of like the “meat sweats” but metabolically worse.) (Volkov) and while a certain amount of acid is part of MT growth signaling, too frequent “acid baths” depress MT function. (Walsh et al 2002) Less is more.

ROS, or free radicals, are essential for MT production but in the right amount, at the right time in the correct dose. Hormetic may not be the perfect word, but it is a little like that. At any rate, too much acid depresses AMPK, and makes ROS more damaging, denatures protein structures and can damage health generally. (Nelson and Cox, 2012.

So HIIT judiciously implemented works. But AGT gets the job done with less overall risk, wear and tear.
 

BrettJp

First Post
I am also interested in this idea and have been searching for confirmation. Pavel mentioned it last month on his Joe Rogan podcast. I have been going through some health issues for over seven months that date back to when I overtrained my legs while also doing HIIT. My legs were extremely sore for well over a month. A doctors visit found no problems and no blood in my urine. But a UTI developed, then led to prostatitis and then epididymitis. I'm still fighting off the prostatitis and the struggle has been quite draining mentally and physically. Obviously my case is a bit extreme but if anyone could share some insight I'd be very grateful.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
Generally speaking you have to really pound it in to cause damage from this type of training. Many of the harmful mechanisms are self-limiting, it would be a rare individual that will stumble into metabolic harm without some underlying condition.

The body increases its anti-oxidative prowess considerably over baseline the more often you expose the system to this stress. If you never train at high lactate levels and infrequently go into test mode seems to cause the most harm, as that is when you will overwhelm existing anti-oxidant defenses.

In a low oxygen/low Ph state, the mitochondria function more efficiently. A couple of adaptations occur that allow them to increase ATP turnover at Ph levels that would be deadly if it were system wide. White blood cells are much more sensitive to low Ph and early signs of chronic overtraining are most evident with impaired immune function (increase susceptibility to colds, lung infection, etc).
 

Jalvarado

Level 1 Valued Member
Generally speaking you have to really pound it in to cause damage from this type of training. Many of the harmful mechanisms are self-limiting, it would be a rare individual that will stumble into metabolic harm without some underlying condition.

The body increases its anti-oxidative prowess considerably over baseline the more often you expose the system to this stress. If you never train at high lactate levels and infrequently go into test mode seems to cause the most harm, as that is when you will overwhelm existing anti-oxidant defenses.

In a low oxygen/low Ph state, the mitochondria function more efficiently. A couple of adaptations occur that allow them to increase ATP turnover at Ph levels that would be deadly if it were system wide. White blood cells are much more sensitive to low Ph and early signs of chronic overtraining are most evident with impaired immune function (increase susceptibility to colds, lung infection, etc).

the thing that is a little confusing to me is that knowing my V02 max HIIT usually constitutes working in your 80-90% range for a wide variable range of time 8-60 seconds. Was Pavel’s issue more with the pop nature of metcons where you add 5 movements don’t rest and drown the body in acid? Or was it with performing HIIT itself .. I ask this because that would be seem to be a bit opposite of the Q&D training itself since today as I completed the 20 swings my heart rate shot up to 160 which is well over or close to my 90% after the 4th round or so. So it seems Q&d can be considered a form of high intensity with longer rests of full recovery which is a protocol of HIIT itself. Again I may be wrong but just trying to understand it all to the core as I’m making myself focus on the training as best as I can.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
the thing that is a little confusing to me is that knowing my V02 max HIIT usually constitutes working in your 80-90% range for a wide variable range of time 8-60 seconds. Was Pavel’s issue more with the pop nature of metcons where you add 5 movements don’t rest and drown the body in acid? Or was it with performing HIIT itself .. I ask this because that would be seem to be a bit opposite of the Q&D training itself since today as I completed the 20 swings my heart rate shot up to 160 which is well over or close to my 90% after the 4th round or so. So it seems Q&d can be considered a form of high intensity with longer rests of full recovery which is a protocol of HIIT itself. Again I may be wrong but just trying to understand it all to the core as I’m making myself focus on the training as best as I can.

Pretty sure he's talking about metcon type work. Long reps of submax loads taken to muscular exhaustion or close.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
the thing that is a little confusing to me is that knowing my V02 max HIIT usually constitutes working in your 80-90% range for a wide variable range of time 8-60 seconds. Was Pavel’s issue more with the pop nature of metcons where you add 5 movements don’t rest and drown the body in acid? Or was it with performing HIIT itself .. I ask this because that would be seem to be a bit opposite of the Q&D training itself since today as I completed the 20 swings my heart rate shot up to 160 which is well over or close to my 90% after the 4th round or so. So it seems Q&d can be considered a form of high intensity with longer rests of full recovery which is a protocol of HIIT itself. Again I may be wrong but just trying to understand it all to the core as I’m making myself focus on the training as best as I can.

In the Strong Endurance seminar (and also covered some at Second Wind), we went into deep detail on what's occurring physiologically during the intensity interval. I think the most important point is that there is a lot going on in the 20-60 second part of the intense effort that is not good, whereas the first 15-20 seconds is all good. So Q&D, and even S&S, limits the intense effort to get the good without the bad.

But you're also right that the rest intervals are important. Acidity is not bad, lactic acid / lactate is not bad... it's an excessive amount of it, accumulating that is to be avoided. The body is really good at buffering these and recovering, and the ability to do that is part of what is being trained. The poison is the dose. It just has to be dosed correctly for best effect.
 

ali

Level 6 Valued Member
And on the subject of ph and acidity we have our favourite fat burning friends ketones.
Worried that exercise and hard training may make you feel a little groggy with acidosis induced cellular damage? Yes, you may need to have a little rest.
Meanwhile, with all the fat burning going and an eye on your ketones your ph regulation is working extra hard to keep things in check as ketones too are acidic. A marker for diabetes is, I'm sure many know, elevated ketones.
In uncontrolled diabetes you are very, very literally, in need of medical attention. You may well soon be lying down for a long time. Eternity, even.
Rarely is this discussed. So there you are.
A well known government official here in the uk was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes just recently and elevated ketones were picked up at a doctor's visit.
Keto types do know the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis.
Just pointing this out. But do they?
Because one of the issues of being conscious of mitochondria, due too much anaerobic glycolysis as the prime culprit, is iniating a build up of H+ ions and from that potential cellular damage. And from this view, although not limited by it, comes the view to avoid too much of it....im ok here so far....but a short step away is avoiding carbs, to fast, to produce ketones. And from there a whole new market has been built on the benefits of ketones.
There should be more concern and fear here, at least debate or dialigue, on the acidity and harm excessive ketones can do.
You know given the percentage of people with diabetes and people who may develop it.
I have yet to read anywhere from keto promoting quacks, wellness bs marketers and business diet sales pitches there ever being any sort of downsides with ketones. You only ever here of sunny uplands, rainbows and cognitive enhancing wonders. Never coma and death. Due to acidosis, as it happens.
I'll get my coat...
 

randyh

Level 2 Valued Member
And on the subject of ph and acidity we have our favourite fat burning friends ketones.
Worried that exercise and hard training may make you feel a little groggy with acidosis induced cellular damage? Yes, you may need to have a little rest.
Meanwhile, with all the fat burning going and an eye on your ketones your ph regulation is working extra hard to keep things in check as ketones too are acidic. A marker for diabetes is, I'm sure many know, elevated ketones.
In uncontrolled diabetes you are very, very literally, in need of medical attention. You may well soon be lying down for a long time. Eternity, even.
Rarely is this discussed. So there you are.
A well known government official here in the uk was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes just recently and elevated ketones were picked up at a doctor's visit.
Keto types do know the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis.
Just pointing this out. But do they?
Because one of the issues of being conscious of mitochondria, due too much anaerobic glycolysis as the prime culprit, is iniating a build up of H+ ions and from that potential cellular damage. And from this view, although not limited by it, comes the view to avoid too much of it....im ok here so far....but a short step away is avoiding carbs, to fast, to produce ketones. And from there a whole new market has been built on the benefits of ketones.
There should be more concern and fear here, at least debate or dialigue, on the acidity and harm excessive ketones can do.
You know given the percentage of people with diabetes and people who may develop it.
I have yet to read anywhere from keto promoting quacks, wellness bs marketers and business diet sales pitches there ever being any sort of downsides with ketones. You only ever here of sunny uplands, rainbows and cognitive enhancing wonders. Never coma and death. Due to acidosis, as it happens.
I'll get my coat...
These ketone concerns are unfounded. the monocarboxylic transport proteins (mct) that muttually arise with Mt biogenesis also transport ketones (and fat and glycogen) into Mt...whatever the energy substrate, your body has developed a way to use it.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
Devil's advocate, the body cannot decommission excess ketones, they must be flushed out or used. Production follows activity. Post exercise you will always have elevated ketone levels for several hours minimum.
 

ali

Level 6 Valued Member
Unfounded? Really?

"Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA) is a condition in which the blood becomes highly acidic as a result of dehydration and excessive ketone (acid) production. When bodily fluids become acidic, some of the body’s systems stop functioning properly. It is a serious condition that will make you violently ill and it can kill you "


Now clearly there is a population issue here. I'm not saying, in anyway, that a healthy, exercising person will go on to develop ill health due to skipping breakfast and going for a run or a spot of Q&D. No. To be clear.
However, let's get real. Many people seek advice about diet, possibly from a position of ill health with possibly some food issues and the prevailing wind is from the direction of keto this, keto that. And from that there is a sub culture of ketone chasing. If healthy, personal choice etc....I have no judgement on that, do what you want. But there is a crossover, a very real one, that of testimony and anecdote. Some people clearly do well going some sort of keto version of something or other.
There is very little, if any, discussion of the dangers. And there are very real dangers.
My point is if someone is overly concerned about creating an acid bath at the cellular level due to lactate but is unaware perhaps that ketone bodies are themselves acidic, then is that not a point worth mentioning?
Is it a worry for healthy people? No. For diabetics, well....what do people think?
And here, probably, people will say that they've gained their health back via keto/low carb....and good for them. Do you hear of the people who don't? And then there is the full, proper ketogenic diet.
And yes, differentiate between type 1 and type 2. There are so many variables in a general discussion - but the variable being discussed here is acid. Ketones are acidic and when uncontrolled, in excess, can kill you.
 

randyh

Level 2 Valued Member
Ketoacidosis is not ketosis. Nor does ketosis “progress” to ketoacidosis. Ketones are a by product of fat oxidation, so if you are oxidizing fat you are going to have ketone bodies.
 

ali

Level 6 Valued Member
Yes. Yes. And yes. In health. No issue.

I view a scenario of diabetes and ketoacidosis as a bigger health problem than worrying about a couple extra reps to avoid too much acid. Given that half the world has diabetes, it seems. And diabetic people do exercise.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
I was under impression ketones only formed from excess of acetyl CoA = only formed in not ketgenic folks as result of longer duration high output activities, or small amount during overnight fast.
 

Steve A

Level 5 Valued Member
I have yet to read anywhere from keto promoting quacks, wellness bs marketers and business diet sales pitches there ever being any sort of downsides with ketones. You only ever here of sunny uplands, rainbows and cognitive enhancing wonders. Never coma and death. Due to acidosis, as it happens.
I'll get my coat...

Typical of ALL nutritional propaganda, really, from vegans to carnivores. (Not the ketone bit, just the rainbows without rain.) Anyway...thought you might find this paper of interest. Nutritional Ketosis and Mitohormesis: Potential Implications for Mitochondrial Function and Human Health
 

randyh

Level 2 Valued Member
Yes. Yes. And yes. In health. No issue.

I view a scenario of diabetes and ketoacidosis as a bigger health problem than worrying about a couple extra reps to avoid too much acid. Given that half the world has diabetes, it seems. And diabetic people do exercise.
Insufficient insulin production and severe, chronic high blood sugar are the main causes of diabetic ketoacidosis, the lack of insulin and the subsequent increase of glucagon interferes with free fatty acid metabolism by MT thus producing more ketones than they can handle. Similar mechansism in alcoholic KA, liver MT are knocked out and there is a cascade of ketones. Yes, obviously these are pathologies, but if your point is acid (irrespective of source) is bad for you then, yes of course.

If you are saying ketoacidosis is worse than chronic exercise glycolytic acid, yeah, no doubt. But chronic acidity (H+ )has been shown to have deleterious effects on the athlete’s metabolic machinery too.

I look at AGT as a way to exercise that attempt to optimize acid and ROS production and clearance, and other factors to promote healthy MT growth and function, not simply avoid “too much acid,” but rather enhance metabolic machinery. Chronic HIIT probably fails at this, ultimately.

An aside, generally, maybe ironically, those of us on ketogenic diets get very efficient at using ketones. So much so in my case that I can almost never turn a ketostick darker and my blood ketones are only trace.
 
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ali

Level 6 Valued Member
@randyh , I agree with you. Rather odd if I didn't given that I share the view of chronic exercise being potentially negative. So moderate is good, balanced here and there with higher outputs. And yes, good article above @Steve A

You are right on many things, I'm not in disagreement. Where I differ and perhaps you see this, is on the extremes. And as I write this, probably basking in ketone wonderland as I have not eaten yet this morning, so there we are: we are not in conflict.

The extreme I'm against is the chasing of ketones. If chasing the burn is extreme exercise, chasing ketones is the extreme on the dietary side of things. It's the risk/reward axial tilt.

Yes, nutritional ketosis v ketogenesis. Different beasts. For someone with metabolic disorders of any sort that distinction is less obvious, full tilt ketogenesis could be a problem. For someone with metabolic issues that could be a good thing, too.

The point, overall: accountable health care professionals advise against ketogenic diets for the treatment of diabetes, due to the risk of death. Fair enough, isn't it? When the ph buffering system goes awol due to excess ketones.

Yet ketogenic proponents claim the opposite. There's a disconnect.

And yes, somewhere in between is a compromise. Moderation.

I've tried to make this distinction before and got a kicking for it, so it's a tender, sensitive thing, this keto carry on. And it needn't be.
 
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Bill Been

Level 6 Valued Member
The reason you’re “taking a kicking” is you keep equating harmless, widely utilized, widely studied, effective low carbohydrate/ ketogenic dieting with the uncontrolled, unmodulated, chronically super-
deranged metabolic environment created by a serious disease state.

Rather like trying to warn people about the dangers of Disney World fireworks displays by invoking the Bikini Atoll H-Bomb test.
 
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