Nutrition Mixing Carbs and Fat. Good or Bad?

[Snowman]

I've heard differing opinions about this, and I'm curious about people's thoughts. Here's the two arguments I've heard.

Good: Fat slows digestion, so eating fat with carbs means that the carbs reach your blood at a slower rate, resulting is a slower, less significant rise in blood sugar, and therefore less insulin release. Regular spikes in blood sugar/insulin seem to be related to various metabolic issues, so carbs+fat can help mitigate those.

Bad: Insulin spikes can also spike growth hormone and testosterone, so we want to spike our insulin (though perhaps not often?). Also, eating carbs and fat together means that the carbs will preferentially be used as fuel, while the fat will be stored as body fat, and body fat is bad.

My take: If we spike insulin all the time, we run the risk of becoming insulin insensitive. If we never spike insulin, we still run the risk of becoming insulin insensitive. It makes sense to me to keep my insulin in check most of the time, and only allow one or two spikes per day (to preserve insulin sensitivity and take advantage of the hormonal stuff). The fat storage issue doesn't bother me, since I doubt I'll gain weight as long as keep my average calories where they need to be. I intermittently fast, so technically my body needs to be storing fat after meals anyways, so I have something to go on the next day.

Anybody else have thoughts, or arguments one way or another that I missed?

 

[coachnathanwhite]

I'll usually go with the Dan John answer to every nutrition question, "It depends" and "Eat like an adult." The issue with discussing food pairings is the results are greatly dependent on the age, sex, body comp and current activity level of who you are talking to. There are so many variables that nailing down a very specific "good or bad" answer is tough.

I can tell you that when I was 25 I could eat slabs of protein and mountains of carbs at any time of day without performance, digestion or body comp issues. Today at 41, no way I could do that as the practice of IF works much better for me in regulating digestion, body comp and overall hormone profile. Things change, it depends, eat like an adult....

 

[Al Ciampa]

@Snowman I really don't know where to start because you've brought up way too much discussion in just one post. In bullet form:

-"store" is an inaccurate way of thinking how adipose tissue functions
-blunting the introduction of sugar into the bloodstream has more to do with the type of carb than what you eat it with
-spikes in blood sugar are best controlled with the total amount of carbs
-where did you read that never spiking insulin leads to insulin insensitivity? And related, what is your definition of a "spike"?
-all of the above is related to physiological context and does not exist in a vacuum
-carbs and fat together is one of the pleasures of life; which, in the context of a healthy lifestyle, probably outweighs any of your concerns

 

[Snowman]

@natewhite39 "good" and "bad" is certainly an oversimplification. I don't want to narrow things down too much, since I'd like people to take the question and run with it. But I certainly agree, I have a decent idea of what works for me (25 y/o, male, moderate level of activity), but that won't work for everyone. I'm sure people in different demographics have different experiences.

@aciampa
-Please explain. I guess I think of my body taking the digested glycerols and FFA's, making triglycerides, and tossing them into adipose cells after a big dinner, then reversing the process 10 hours later. I've been wrong before, though.
-Certainly, rice will cause a more abrupt increase in blood sugar than boiled sweet potato, but dry rice will also cause a more abrupt increase in blood sugar than rice and butter.
-I agree, but that doesn't answer my question
-I've read it in a handful of books and articles (I'm sure I could find some if you would like), usually in the context of explaining potential issues with ketogenic/super low-carb diets. Looking back, I should have worded that a little differently. To clarify, I'm not saying that you have to spike insulin to maintain insulin sensitivity (although it would appear that I said exactly that. Whoops). It simply seems that when insulin levels are very low for long periods of time, it can cause an issue. Although that seems counter-intuitive to me, I've seen it brought up quite a few times. I would define "spike" as simply a significantly higher level of circulating insulin than what would be present before a meal, or even after a low/moderate carb meal. If you ask me to define "significant," then I'll be in trouble...
-I agree, refer to my first statement about oversimplification for the sake of conversation.
-I agree, the implications of "needing" to completely separate carb and fat intake are pretty terrifying. Not to mention that it's impractical/impossible.

I don't think the carb/fat separation is really necessary, but I know Ori Hofmekler preaches it pretty adamantly. Maybe a Warrior Dieter will weigh in...

 

[ali]

You can see why a high carb with high fat meal is considered a bad idea because fat people eat them all the time and then don't move much and then they eat more of the same BUT they're not eating servings of fruit with double cream or baked potato and cheese or a cheese and nut risotto, in moderation. Generally, I think there is a consensus here......most high carb/high fat meals are processed, readily available convenient high energy bombs very loosely described as food. And on that basis and that basis alone they are a bad idea BUT now and then, for a healthy, active person with more wiggle room in their belt lines not a big deal......then it comes down to individual and their definition of 'now and then'. That can get a bit warped and out of control........
Can't beat a fresh organic potato (or more) baked for 2 hours, smothered in butter with a large dollop of grated cheese, lightly grilled......very high carb, very high fat......with a salad/veggies and steak. Swap the potato for a sweet potato if you'd prefer, just they don't grow very well in my allotment in Scotland! Fresh high carb, delicious high fat.......yum, yum. Not for everyone, I'd agree but works for me. Just not for breakfast.
There is a classification issue of good/bad carb/fat that is best addressed more broadly by food v high energy food things. Then very broadly, the starch served with fat.......how much, now often, if at all. Unhealthy, sick, overweight and looking to overcome those health issues, think food as nutrition first.......energy isn't the issue! For otherwise healthy peeps, it's goal driven/activity/exercise/lifestyle choices driving energy requirements. Some tinkering is required, no right or wrongs.......if healthy and tickety-boo.
As an aside, my honest potato served with butter. Same potato, chopped up, deep fried in some rancid stinking old pot of aircraft fuel, different outcome; same but wildly different. There is the issue, it is the same starch but eaten with different fat, one healthy, the other not. Good food bastardised into something else. Hence food v non food is more the issue, in my view.

 

[Abdul-Rasheed]

Can't beat a fresh organic potato (or more) baked for 2 hours, smothered in butter with a large dollop of grated cheese, lightly grilled....

Yum yum, I am going to try this.

 

[Harry Westgate]

As a Warrior Dieter and someone who naturally struggles to lose fat... I can't even look at nuts and grains on the same plate without gaining weight.

I jest of course, but still, I've done well o Ori's advice.

 

[Rayhzel]

I think it is important to note that you do need carbs. Ori also says this in WD.
I never really stress mixing them, though it hardly ever happens.

 

[Dave Johnson]

I think it is important to note that you do need carbs. Ori also says this in WD.
I never really stress mixing them, though it hardly ever happens.

A good thread. I follow, enjoy, and strongly believe in the Warrior Diet. Said another way it works great for me. That being said I wish Ori would have updated the book by now. First edition 2003, last edition 2007. He and others know much more now.

Required reading IMO should be an easy to miss post on Ori's website. I would call this a summary and update on the Warrior Diet. Included are about 8 pages of Food Combining Guidelines, Nutrition Manuals, Detox Sample Eating Plan, Fat Fuel Days, Fat Fuel Day Detailed Eating Plan, Carb Fuel Day Detailed Eating Plan, How To Adjust The Plan, and more. As far as I'm concerned these details are relevant enough and should be expanded into a new edition.

Everyone following or interested in the Warrior Diet should see this.

The Warrior Diet - Defense Nutrition | Organic Whey Protein & All-Natural Supplements

 

[Steve Freides]

@Dave Johnson, Ori wrote The Anti-Estrogenic Diet after the WD - it's a worthwhile read and could be seen as the next version of the WD, although it is much more about what one eats than about timing.

-S-

 

[Dave Johnson]

@Dave Johnson, Ori wrote The Anti-Estrogenic Diet after the WD - it's a worthwhile read and could be seen as the next version of the WD, although it is much more about what one eats than about timing.

-S-

Thanks Steve I am familiar with that but have not checked it out yet.

Easy for me to suggest an update to a book but reality is it's a ton of work.

Appears as if Ori is working on a new book titled The Stress Principle. Brief details I've seen on this book make it appear as if nutrition will be one of the elements of the book. Perhaps Ori's latest nutrition findings will be there. Within the next few days Ori is doing the first of two webinars on The Stress Principle.

 

[pet']

Hello,

The ketonic diet is mostly based on fat and reduce carbs to the minimum. The metabolism takes a little time to adapt but once it does, it only uses fat to create energy.

Done properly this tends to weight loss (if very low carbs).

Indeed, the body firstly use carb, then fat, to create energy. So if you don't use all your carbs during an activity, it will store fat and your weight will increase. If you have enough activity, it will consume carbs and only then will consume fat.

So if you have only fat, it will use it. North tribes (Inuits) live with this principle (they eat a lot of seal fat and almost no carbs).

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Harry Westgate]

@pet' you seem to be somewhat clued up on the science here... Do you then have any idea why my experience of the WD eating nothing but an unlimited amount (seriously, probably about 3,000kcal) of nuts and veggies would lead to me losing weight and becoming very lean by my standards?

Ori said in the book to try this, and to this day I haven't seen anyone else on this Forum speak of it (please though, take Ori's advice and try it for a few days). It is - for myself at least - so, so, satisfying and I feel so healthy eating this way, though I'm in no way in a caloric deficit and not in ketosis either due to the carb content of both nuts (almonds and pistachios) and veggies... I truly believe that nothing in the world of diet and fitness is magic, though this way of eating is close...

FWIW, I know that in a fairly recent podcast Ori talked about being able to eat virtually unlimited nut/seed calories, and mentioned how these food may well be the ideal primal human food due to the shape of the human skull and teeth; ideal for crunching on hard, oval shaped objects.

@Dave Johnson I'm so excited for The Stress Principle! From what has been said by Ori already it seems like it may be more geared towards lifestyle in general with nutrition being a more minor aspect to it. Very exciting stuff!

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Harry Westgate
When you do not eat for 20 hours or more (doing a physical activity or not), you increase your insuline sensitivity, which allows to torch fat. Besides, the longer you stay without eating, the more your sensitivity increase (proportional ratio).

The more you have insulin, the more difficult it is to lose weight. So while WDieting, you increase insulin only once a day.

It also seems that fasting promotes growth hormone. This one use fat to produce muscle for eg.

Then, if you do only one meal a day, even a 3000kcal one, you are likely to eat less calories than in 3 meals.

I underline that I am not a doctor. This is what I learnt from researches. May be some well (and better) qualified people here could bring information.

I would finally add that I also lose weight when WDieting.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[elli]

Tasty combination

 

[ShawnM]

I don't go with keto, low carb, ect.... I just try and keep it all natural. I have a turkey breast in my crock pot with onion, red potatoes and carrots. I'll eat that for a few days and then a bunch of veggies and a 8pm. pork loin in the crock pot. Tons of veggies and meat. Next weekend I'm hunting for venison. I try and eat a bunch of eggs and fruit early in the day. I've given up on diets stuff, just eating natural-ish. Beer and BBQ is natural isn't it?!?!?! Lol.

 

[ShawnM]

Sorry, 8 pound pork loin. Dam auto correct! Lol.

 

[offwidth]

I don't go with keto, low carb, ect.... I just try and keep it all natural. I have a turkey breast in my crock pot with onion, red potatoes and carrots. I'll eat that for a few days and then a bunch of veggies and a 8pm. pork loin in the crock pot. Tons of veggies and meat. Next weekend I'm hunting for venison. I try and eat a bunch of eggs and fruit early in the day. I've given up on diets stuff, just eating natural-ish. Beer and BBQ is natural isn't it?!?!?! Lol.

Real natural high quality food! Exactly!