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Other/Mixed Motocross Racer and Cardio

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Hutch371

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When I race motocross a race lasts between 20-30 mins and my heart rate will be between 90-100% of max for the entire race. It is the off season and I have 5 months to train till racing started again. I just started the Q and D program and am doing it 3 days per week. I'm also doing RSA Sprint Interval Program of 5 and 10 sec splits and doing them twice a week.

My question is what type of other cardio should I be doing to increase my VO2 max? I think I should be doing some Steady State Cardio as well. How should I be doing it? What should be my target heart rate %? For how long per session and how many times per week?

Thanks in advance.
 
@Hutch371
First off welcome to the SF forum.

Your questions are not easy to answer without knowing a lot more particulars about you. Age, training age, health conditions, etc.

You say 90% - 100% of max... how have you determined your HRmax?

And no disrespect intended but I find it difficult to believe that you are working at 100%max for 30 minutes. This is Zone 5 and time in that is usually measured in seconds.

Are you wearing a HRM when you race?

Unless you are young and / or highly detrained it is unlikely you will be able to increase your VO2MAX. (See the VO2MAX myth by House | Johnston)

A large percentage of steady state cardio (depending upon you goals and fitness level) should be in Zone 1 which in most people corresponds to the so- called MAF rate.

How much and how often likewise is dependent upon many variables.

Again welcome...
 
Thank you for replying and no offence taken what so ever. I can definitely answer some of your questions. I am 41 years old but I think I'm still in my 20's. Haha. I'm 5'10 and 163 pound and probably around 16% body fat. My max heart rate is right around 190 and my resting heart rate is around 48. I'm in good shape.
Yes I do use a heart rate monitor for all my training and while I race. Yes if I'm racing on a track that I am not so familiar with or just not feeling it I generally will remain in zone 4 somewhere between 80 - 90% of max. But on a good track and if I'm feeling really comfortable to the point I know I can push I will stay over 90% for 80% of the race. So call it somewhere between 15-20 mins. Yes hard to believe. I would not be able to do that is I was running or on a rowing machine. But while racing a dirt bike I can. Not sure why it is different. I want to be able to be able to maintain my top speed for a full 25-30 mins with out fading! Or better yet maintain the same speed but lower my heart rate between 80% - 90%. That would be even better.

I have loved listening to The Quick and The Dead. Probably have listened to it several times and wrote pages of note. It just doesn't touch a lot on steady state cardio. Just curious if Pavel has figured out the perfect method for doing that as well so I can add 1 - 2 sessions a week of that.

Thanks again in advance.

Hutch
 
Zone 4 when racing makes perfect sense. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that adrenaline response from the racing adds to the high HR.

48 RHR is pretty decent

Pavel (not to my knowledge anyway) does not have a steady state cardio programming protocol. But others do... plus there are lots of us here that engage in steady state locomotive cardio.

(I usually refer people to 'Training for the Uphill Athlete' for current thinking and protocols for cardio)

My two pennies worth for your needs would be to explore easy trail running and easy cycling. MAF or Z1 up to 60min at least twice a week.

I'm no expert on biofeedback, but that combined with some mental training would no doubt go some ways to lowering the adrenal response for racing...
 
Concur with @offwidth on everything.

An actual road or mountain bike would be more fun (or the newest thing -- gravel bikes??) but it's a little harder to specifically target your HR and effort for the desired cardio adaptations. So as a gym alternative, my suggestion would be 30-60 minutes on a stationary bike; first 10 min bring your HR slowly up from resting to 140, then maintain it between 135 and 145 for the working time, then last 10 min bring it slowly back down towards 100. Pedaling cadence around 90 rpm. This would be essentially the Maffetone method using a stationary bike. I've done it before. Boring but effective.
 
@offwidth makes a very good point - elevated hr could be more a stress response.
This is a very grey area - but high hr, whether driven by exercise intensity or a response to a threat/stimulation requires an equal and opposite effect. The grey area being you and how you recover and your resilience to stress. So in agreement here with others that additional exercise training during a race season/period should be on the easy side of things, or even easy movement recovery, whatever tickles your fancy. Go for balance.
You don't want your wheels coming off....figuratively and, in your case, literally.
 
Oh, just read your first post and didn't realise it is now your off season.....S&S then and some easy runs/bike etc.
 
Hutch371 said:
When I race motocross a race lasts between 20-30 mins and my heart rate will be between 90-100% of max for the entire race. It is the off season and I have 5 months to train till racing started again. I just started the Q and D program and am doing it 3 days per week. I'm also doing RSA Sprint Interval Program of 5 and 10 sec splits and doing them twice a week.

My question is what type of other cardio should I be doing to increase my VO2 max? I think I should be doing some Steady State Cardio as well. How should I be doing it? What should be my target heart rate %? For how long per session and how many times per week?

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
Hutch..
I would slow jog 3-4 times/week using HR around 120 to 130 tops, at least 60 mins, and if you can run that long use one 90 min session. Finish off with a few mins tempo run and walk it down.. that will build your CV base. It'll also build up slow twitch muscle and strengthen tendons in the areas you need when racing on a motorcycle.
Swings and or snatching will help build needed strength in the hinge position, you need torsion bars for legs when racing motorcycles.. getups will help you in controlling twisting forces while racing as well.

That's what I would do anyway..

Good luck
 
Thanks everyone for your input. I look forward to seeing how the Q and D program will help my up coming season. Last season I was just doing lots of intervals and steady state cardio. Results were good but not where I want to be. Sounds like Training for an uphill Athlete will be a good read. I'm sure I'll find some good info that will help out my riding and lasting a full hard 30 mins.
 
There's a piece on the Uphill Athlete site about training for a solo Baja attempt that you might be interested in, though of course that's not the same as a 30min moto. Notably, the Baja guy used a bicycle (road bike, by the sound of it) for his sport-specific LISS.
 
Report back, Ive coached a number of moto guys over the years (Tim ferry, AJ Catanzaro, etc). They are REALLY fit. Most folks think they just hold on and twist the throttle. David Bailey and Johnny O changed that process in the 80s:)
 
Great to know I have a fellow motocross guy on here. It is so true that people don't understand the level of fitness required to do motocross. If I had a dollar everytime I have heard the phrase " You just hang on the bike does all the work". Same comes to my heart rate. I always hear that its impossible to maintain near max hear rate for 20-25 mins straight. I'm just a local vet racer. Our pro level guys maintain near max hear rate for 34-35 mins.
If you could pass on a little insight on how you would train when it comes to cardio that would be awesome. Should I be doing real slow steady state or should I be doing Intervals that that are more in the 80% hear rate zone. How much cardio should I be doing.

Thanks.
 
I’d strongly recommend you read The Uphill Athlete book mentioned above and base your training off that. I’d certainly do the majority of your training at low intensity, steady state - beyond that, the answer is probably “it depends”!

I was an elite junior MTB XC rider and recognise the sort of heart rate averages you mention well! With a maximum heart rate at the time of 198 (lab tested), I was averaging 1-2 hours at 183-192, with the lowest rate rarely dropping below 170. That was over 20 years ago and I was repeatedly told by coaches then that it simply wasn’t possible to maintain anything like that heart rate. All my fellow racers found the same however, I was no outlier. MX is similarly demanding.
 
I definitely plan on reading that book. Have already been on the website and read some of the articles. I appreciate everybody's responses. Great to have this kinda support.
 
There is a big difference between training or performing at 90%max and 100%max...

Additionally a lot of people (in my experience) who reference HR max are usually guessing at what their HR max really is (typically by using some formula, that may only be statistically close at best)
The only way to know for sure is to test it...

Likewise there is a percentage of these folks whose HR max is actually higher than what they think it is.

Fortunately for most of us (here) that aren't competing professionally or at Olympic levels any discrepancies in calculations makes little difference.
 
offwidth said:
There is a big difference between training or performing at 90%max and 100%max...

Additionally a lot of people (in my experience) who reference HR max are usually guessing at what their HR max really is (typically by using some formula, that may only be statistically close at best)
The only way to know for sure is to test it...

Likewise there is a percentage of these folks whose HR max is actually higher than what they think it is.

Fortunately for most of us (here) that aren't competing professionally or at Olympic levels any discrepancies in calculations makes little difference.
Click to expand...

True, but, I think you were onto something when you said the high HR wasn't just due to physical exertion. In this case, it's at least partially a stress response.

So along these lines, is HR max under strenuous exercise = HR max under stress + strenuous exercise? These may not be the same value.

Interesting discussion... thanks, guys.
 
Hutch371 said:
Great to know I have a fellow motocross guy on here. It is so true that people don't understand the level of fitness required to do motocross. If I had a dollar everytime I have heard the phrase " You just hang on the bike does all the work". Same comes to my heart rate. I always hear that its impossible to maintain near max hear rate for 20-25 mins straight. I'm just a local vet racer. Our pro level guys maintain near max hear rate for 34-35 mins.
If you could pass on a little insight on how you would train when it comes to cardio that would be awesome. Should I be doing real slow steady state or should I be doing Intervals that that are more in the 80% hear rate zone. How much cardio should I be doing.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
well the big Q is how many moto days a week you are doing? The few local vets I help in New England might only do 1 day on the moto each weekend. So we do on the bicycle intervals on Wed (near FTP/Threshold). 2 complete push-pull-core "anti" , strength sessions, then 2-3 low grade (below 85% of LTHR) bikes or runs as fillers. The moto days are hard and we do focused work. Sprint laps, 20min motos, gate drops etc. One other x factor I see is body composition. Look at Cooper Webb this year...he lost 15 pounds under Aldon program and it paid off in spades. You race in the heat, with lots of gear and a helmet on. extra body fat = less efficiency and overheating and the subsequent increased HR. Win at the dinner table too. :)
 
Another vote for The Uphill Athlete. It's the best explanation I've yet read of the hows and whys of low intensity aerobic base building. A bitter pill for many, for sure, and takes some wind out of the HIIT sails. You'll have to translate some, as the sport focus is different.

Lots of MX guys are super good cyclists, and with a 5 month off season, now is the time to build a base. The high end stuff comes quickly, so save it for when it counts. The base comes slowly, so get the grunt work outta the way.

Lotsa options for strength work. Figure out what your gaps are and try to fill them in before the season. MTB and MX aren't the same, but I've found the biggest game changers to be working the hinge pattern with DL and swings, loaded carries, and the magic formula of C+P+FSQ.

Also, if you do get into cycling and the seasonal scheduling works out, a good option would be cyclocross.

YMMV

ETA:
Dig into the SF podcast archives for the Peter Park interview. Lotsa good stuff there, and he's worked with MX guys.
 
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vegpedlr said:
Dig into the SF podcast archives for the Peter Park interview. Lotsa good stuff there, and he's worked with MX guys.
Click to expand...
I've just relistened to the Peter Park interview, and it is awesome! Now that QnD got published it makes a lot more sense :) he talks about motocross racers about 30 minutes in.
 
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