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Other/Mixed Mountain Strong

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
Hello,

Mark Twight is also credited to be the creator of the "300" Workout:
- 25 pull ups
- 50 DL @60kg
- 50 push ups
- 50 box jumps
- 50 floor wipers with 60kg bb
- 50 C&J @16kg (25 per side)
- 25 pull ups

As a general note, it seems that most of his training gravitates around CrossFit. However, a lot of his training programs are not the "regular WOD" one can do in 30 minutes. Plenty of them are way longer.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Hello,

Mark Twight is also credited to be the creator of the "300" Workout:
- 25 pull ups
- 50 DL @60kg
- 50 push ups
- 50 box jumps
- 50 floor wipers with 60kg bb
- 50 C&J @16kg (25 per side)
- 25 pull ups

As a general note, it seems that most of his training gravitates around CrossFit. However, a lot of his training programs are not the "regular WOD" one can do in 30 minutes. Plenty of them are way longer.

Kind regards,

Pet'
Well... some history here... Mark was indeed influenced early on by CrossFit. He soon learned that what CrossFit was doing was not applicable to the type of adaptations he was looking for or needed. In the words of Mark...

“When I was drunk on CrossFit punch I kept trying to force the square peg of high-intensity circuit training and heavy lifting into the round hole of endurance performance simply because I like training in the gym” - excerpted from the short essay TINSTAAFL

Mark left the CrossFit to the CrossFitters and forged ahead doing what he did best. I believe there was some additional conflict at the time. One CrossFit person even ‘infiltrated’ (my term) GymJones and took a weekend course and wrote an article about it.
 
Well... some history here... Mark was indeed influenced early on by CrossFit. He soon learned that what CrossFit was doing was not applicable to the type of adaptations he was looking for or needed. In the words of Mark...

“When I was drunk on CrossFit punch I kept trying to force the square peg of high-intensity circuit training and heavy lifting into the round hole of endurance performance simply because I like training in the gym” - excerpted from the short essay TINSTAAFL

Mark left the CrossFit to the CrossFitters and forged ahead doing what he did best. I believe there was some additional conflict at the time. One CrossFit person even ‘infiltrated’ (my term) GymJones and took a weekend course and wrote an article about it.
Dude I remember all that. Very controversial at the time. I really liked Twight for a while, eventually found a different path. Haven’t really thought about him for years until the is whole convo. Serious drama back in the day tho.
 
Twight has an uncanny knack for finding drama over the years due to his personality and integrity. Right or wrong, he holds himself and those around him to very high standards. I’ve learned a lot from him second hand over the past 20+ years.
He’s gotten back on the bike and onto the range of late and it’s always interesting to see where his endeavors take him.
 
Anyone getting outside on local mini-adventures? I’ve been riding my old singlespeed cross bike to the local trails and doing fast paced hiking for a few hours before returning home. Other than that it’s pulling plastic in the basement and doing an MTI generalized program for something new.
 
Anyone getting outside on local mini-adventures? I’ve been riding my old singlespeed cross bike to the local trails and doing fast paced hiking for a few hours before returning home. Other than that it’s pulling plastic in the basement and doing an MTI generalized program for something new.
Local peaks (mostly with trails)
Bouldering outdoors every so often
Have a 6 pitch trad route lined up for the next month or so.
Single Track on my rigid drop bar mtn bike
Road Riding (arguably my biggest training these days)
 
Curious what everyone here thinks of sandbag work for mountain strength.
Sandbag getups are pretty much the only "core" exercise I ever do. I like 'em, very specific to level changes with asymmetric loading. Rough on the knees, best as part of a short-term sport-specific transition phase imo.

An often overlooked aspect of mountain training is mental toughness,
I don't know if this post is the sort of thing you can agree or disagree with, but I think it's been an actively harmful mental model for guiding my training, which is why I no longer think in those terms. It's pretty much always been my experience that I can quite easily push myself to the point of injury or ineffectiveness, both acutely (bonking, acute injury) and chronically (overuse injury, overtraining syndrome), and none of that made me better at anything I cared about. In fact, injuries were the number one thing holding me back, and still are, really.

Of course, the process of doing what we want to do will often suck. But I find it much more useful to model getting through the suck as being roughly 70% doing something you actually want to do (I don't want to be a junior partner at McKinsey, so I'm not going to get through the billable hours grind and endless business travel; I want to hike the old mining route from my house to the ocean so I get through the cold wet night out and steep slopes and blowdown and poison oak and blackberries) and 30% being prepared for it (lots of boring easy training, gear selection, skill practice, research, etc.).
 
Anyone getting outside on local mini-adventures? I’ve been riding my old singlespeed cross bike to the local trails and doing fast paced hiking for a few hours before returning home. Other than that it’s pulling plastic in the basement and doing an MTI generalized program for something new.
My county has a trail complex 5 miles away with several trail route options. I call it my rucking gym and know that I'm fortunate to have it so convenient in a major metro area.
Plenty of thigh burner hills and rutted terrain. You just have to watch for MTBs where the trails are crossed by the dedicated MTB trail.
 
I don't know if this post is the sort of thing you can agree or disagree with, but I think it's been an actively harmful mental model for guiding my training, which is why I no longer think in those terms. It's pretty much always been my experience that I can quite easily push myself to the point of injury or ineffectiveness, both acutely (bonking, acute injury) and chronically (overuse injury, overtraining syndrome), and none of that made me better at anything I cared about. In fact, injuries were the number one thing holding me back, and still are, really.

Of course, the process of doing what we want to do will often suck. But I find it much more useful to model getting through the suck as being roughly 70% doing something you actually want to do (I don't want to be a junior partner at McKinsey, so I'm not going to get through the billable hours grind and endless business travel; I want to hike the old mining route from my house to the ocean so I get through the cold wet night out and steep slopes and blowdown and poison oak and blackberries) and 30% being prepared for it (lots of boring easy training, gear selection, skill practice, research, etc.).

Interesting perspective. I suppose everyone has a different relationship or ratio of what they "can do" (A) to what they "think they can do" or are willing to do (B). For most of us, A is higher than B and we need to learn to push ourselves to reach our potential. But some people are already there -- A=B. And others, like you perhaps, B slightly exceeds A and you have to learn to hold it back -- because doing more than A may be possible, and even necessary in an emergency, but is far too costly for most training purposes.
 
Anyone getting outside on local mini-adventures? I’ve been riding my old singlespeed cross bike to the local trails and doing fast paced hiking for a few hours before returning home. Other than that it’s pulling plastic in the basement and doing an MTI generalized program for something new

never stop(ped) the micro adventures...or macro. With races canceled i spent a lot of time in the mtns all summer (multiple > 100m MTB rides) and now have transitioned to nordic and skimo and strength in the garage.

if you spend enough time in the mtns you will faec discomfort (weather, soreness, terrain). and i think it really "tempers" you for real life and/or sporting endeavors down the road.
 
I don't know if this post is the sort of thing you can agree or disagree with, but I think it's been an actively harmful mental model for guiding my training, which is why I no longer think in those terms.

Excellent point psmith. I too have struggled mightily with pushing my body into the "suck" and thus reaped the rewards "injuries" too often to count.

The mental toughness training I am talking about though is not done for "chest beating" but a specific purpose to prepare one's mind for potential life threatening situations and good decision making ability therein.

In my experience it has been advantageous to train mental toughness and mountaineers/combat arms folks will specifically understand what I am talking about. When I was in the infantry, they intentionally caused numerous types of discomfort (mental and physical) to increase your survivability and adaptability in difficult circumstances. It was something that was specifically trained, because one day you would have to make decisions under very stressful circumstances that could cost your life, or worse, your Soldier's lives.

Earlier offwidth mentioned that an experienced mountaineer asked why would he train mental toughness when he is going to suck on the mountain anyway? IMHO, the reason is you need to know how your body is going to respond in such situations before it may cost you your life.

A lot of what I do has been with one of my 5 kids in tow, and we have had "adventures" where if something went wrong we were simply going to die. I say that not to be dramatic, but it just is. Even with modern satellite communications there are many locales on this earth that rescue is not quick enough, or they simply cannot fly very often due to consistently poor weather. Knowing how my body works when wet, tired, cold and hungry has helped me personally many times. Yes, the actual experience of doing such things has been the best mental toughness teacher, but I believe there are some things that we can do to prepare ourselves, somewhat, prior to those things happening.

Some mental toughness training is skill learning. This is just a small example. As much as I take my kids out, one skill I taught them (3 of 5) early on was how to make a fire with COLD hands as one day it could save their lives. When I mean cold, I mean cold to the point where you can barely close your index finger to your thumb. In the safety of our back yard I intentionally got there hands cold to the point of extreme discomfort (not injury) and then instructed them on how to start a fire in such a state with a magnesium striker. Cocoa and warmth awaited them in the house, but that activity boosted their confidence tremendously and I have comfort of knowing that if ever in that situation they already know what to do and will not panic.

To train the physical part of mental toughness I have found that one has to choose activities that require nearly 0 skill, thus when the body is fatigued there is very low risk of injury. Here are my top three:

1. Rucking (medium ruck (<=50lbs))
2. Farmer's Carries
3. Crawling (unloaded)

The British SAS and USA Delta Force utilize rucking as one of their primary selection processes.

There is little chance of injury to throw on a ruck and walk until you think you cant walk anymore, then walk some more. At the end sometimes throw in life saving skill practice.

Anyway, I am enjoying the discussion and everyone's thoughts on this topic. Happy Monday!
 
When I was in the infantry, they intentionally caused numerous types of discomfort (mental and physical) to increase your survivability and adaptability in difficult circumstances.
Isn’t that the truth...


Earlier offwidth mentioned that an experienced mountaineer asked why would he train mental toughness when he is going to suck on the mountain anyway?
Well actually is was about why train to get a bad nights sleep when it is gonna happen regardless...
(all you folks who have spent the long night freezing your a$$ off on a tiny ledge will know what I am talking about here)

Bear in mind this individual had already forged his spirit in the crucible of discomfort and risk many times over...

Yeah... I totally agree... that if one is going to train the physical aspects of mental toughness, then low skill / risk activities are the way to go.
 
In my experience it has been advantageous to train mental toughness and mountaineers/combat arms folks will specifically understand what I am talking about. When I was in the infantry, they intentionally caused numerous types of discomfort (mental and physical) to increase your survivability and adaptability in difficult circumstances. It was something that was specifically trained, because one day you would have to make decisions under very stressful circumstances that could cost your life, or worse, your Soldier's lives.

They do that for most Soldiers I recall. My first 90 days in the Army at Fort Benning Georgia (the US Army Direct Commission Course and BOLC II (a now defunct six week program teaching basic infantry tactics to every lieutenant)) as well as field problems in Engineer Officer Basic Course featured that in droves.

Anyway, I completely agree that rucking/loaded walking is the easiest way to sort out endurance training/mental toughness. Especially if the weather sucks (i.e. raining in Hawaii or biting cold anywhere where four seasons are extant).
 
@offwidth one thing I'd forgotten to add, is also making sure one is smart with any snivel gear, if any, worn on said runs/rucks in crap weather.

On a rainy ruck in question I threw on my gortex jacket for the walk and while it helped, it just drove my heartrate up more than I wanted to (at the time I was trying to keep it under my aerobic threshold of 143 BPM). That said, it reminded me of just WHY my NCO cadre during the training courses above specifically told us not to wear snivel gear whilst rucking.
 
I’ve know too many stellar physical humans who broke when the chips were down to think that physical challenges build mental toughness. Maybe they do, and maybe without those physical attributes they’d developed they’d have broke sooner. I don’t have an answer as to how or why.

Developing experience dealing with challenging situations can go a long way to helping someone keep their head, because they already have faith in their ability to do X in Y situation - eg fire building in the cold. Confidence in skills and equipment suggests both of those go a long way too, but overconfidence goes too far...

I wonder how much of it is just gradual exposure. I’m thinking of diet here oddly enough. I eat salads, cottage cheese and berries, chicken, etc and folks at work talk about how dedicated I must be and how hard it is etc. And I usually just shrug and say I enjoy it. I didn’t start out enjoying such “healthy” diet, and I didn’t switch over 100% overnight, but developed over time until now I truly do enjoy it and it isn’t the least bit challenging for me. Training was similar - at first it was about being hard core and dedicated and I was so tough for doing it and disciplined and now... it’s just a thing. It isn’t challenging for me. Backpacking similar - first time I backpacked 8 miles I thought I was gonna die. Now covering 12-15 in a day is pretty easy, excepting terrain. Am I tougher, or did I just get used to the stress and my “toughness bar baseline” got elevated a little?

Is that developing toughness? Or is toughness like bravery - courage in spite of fear. If you’re less afraid then maybe you’re not as brave... but you’d do the same thing, or maybe something more. So could someone gutting through their first mile walk be as tough as me gutting through my run and I’m as tough as @offwidth when he guts through a century, provided all our senses of difficulty and effort were equated? Would one be physically tougher but all equally mentally tough?

Anyways this might be a good place to mention Greg Everett is releasing his new book called Tough. Might be worth picking up.
 
I guess if I condensed what I’m thinking is more along the lines - is toughness your ability to handle a greater stress in absolute terms, or in relative terms? Somewhere in between?
 
Hello,

We also have to distinguish toughness and stubbornness.

IMHO, toughness may be the ability to endure a certain amount of stress - meaning discomfort either physical or mental - while properly performing a skill to complete a task and while adapting to a changing environment.

Stubbornness could be roughly the same, without adapting to a changing environment, which could eventually lead to negative outcome (injury, etc...).

I prefer talking about resiliency, which is more about looking for "discomfort" to then knowing how to handle it when it gets necessary. These unpleasant things are not necessarily complicated: waking up at 4:30am when it's dark, cold and rainy to run, forcing oneself to talk in a meeting, etc... As time goes by, looking for these discomfort may become an "exercise" we do as an habit. Once we create this "momentum", we can always find a way to get better.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
All good points...
I think that resilience or mental toughness in adverse conditions is certainly some sort of continuum.
Some folks will be pretty far down at the lower end, and may never ‘move up’ (for lack of need or desire), some folks may be born at the upper end of the scale. Others fall at various places somewhere in between. For those that have the need and desire to do so I believe can gradually harden themselves; much like @Coyotl describing his backpacking and diet examples. (Both of which I like and can relate to...)

Fun fact: I went looking for a bit of discomfort this morning (and found it).... cold, dark, single track, with one hard crash...
 
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