mTOR Signaling & Growth (Mammalian Target of Rapamycin)

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
A few thoughts am trying to wrap my head around,...
Interesting questions that beyond me
All the talk about "exercise " triggering mtor, but what about us construction workers? We exercise all day. For instance, I hauled heavy bars and stuff all day the other day. Wouldn't that trigger motor and keep it elevated all day?
Yes, construction is exercise.

Kenny Croxdale
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I get I probably should have some protein during the day, but how am I to create these peaks and valleys when all I do is haul and carry heavy stuff? I work harder at work than I do in the gym.
Do you have breakfast or lunch? Those meals trigger mTOR with the right amount of Leucine.

Kenny Croxale
 

Joe Fraser

Triple-Digit Post Count
I've been thinking about the comment about mTOR feeding cancer cells if not being tasked with adapting to hard exercise and the inspiring case of John Wilson. He was diagnosed with terminal stage IV kidney cancer and suffered a collapsed lung. He was given somewhere around 3-6 months to live.

He decided to continue training while getting chemotherapy and even put on 40lbs of muscle. Most cancer patients lose weight.

To the disbelief of his doctor's, he's still doing well almost 6 years later!

Perhaps the training has applied the protein in his diet and mTOR to muscle growth and repair instead of the cancer.

I wish I could of found a transcript but his story was on this podcast episode. Well worth a listen.
 

HUNTER1313

More than 500 posts
Just out of curiosity. Since a few of us are after a little more muscle and to look good naked, who has switched from an intermittent fasting protocol to the three protein/leucine protocol? And what was your experience?
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
I can't speak to swapping from one to the other, but I've always been a three meal a day person with a few snacks tossed in if I'm really trying to gain. Things that tend to confound mass gain is the increase in energy output that accompanies an initial increase in calories, and the level needs to be adjusted up again to create a true surplus.

I recharge carbs immediately after a hard session with a high carb/protein drink (a fair amount of fat in there as well), to take advantage of the post exercise insulin response and shuttle those carbs directly to storage. I used to eat a huge breakfast but these days I get a small meal and a protein shake, and have some fruit and nuts a little later, the rest of the meal basically a few snacks before lunch totaling calories = to a full meal. I think this might be more of an age-related change, I don't have a huge AM appetite anymore but it does come on as the day gets going.

I've never supplemented with leucine specifically but have had good experience with BCAA's and whey isolate powders mixed in a drink with around-the-house sources of protein for putting on size. I think the strategy of making a run at it for a target of 5-8 lbs and then maintain for a few weeks/months is the ideal way to go if shooting for lean gains.

There are so many signalling pathways that regulate not only synthesis but also preservation that I'm not sure it pays to zero in on any single factor when shooting for size gains.

@HUNTER1313,
my experience with training and nutrition around physically demanding job is somewhat limited as I always trained to improve job performance and not to get bigger, typically getting lean and more conditioned rather than larger.

Getting in enough calories in only three meals might be difficult, that's where some small between-meal snacks come in handy. I don't worry about protein for these, they are generally lo-fat like a serving of fruit, or lo-carb like a handful of walnuts, quick and easy to chow down and get back to work.

I did find if I could get my work done in intervals it felt more like building up and less like breaking down (if that makes sense). So I'd power through a demanding part of the day with more alacrity and then downshift for a few. Even for longer duration work I'd do it in intervals - go hard and then slow way down, repeat. Working at a steady plodding pace seemed to induce the least amount of adaptive response - if there's no alternative so be it.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
How much protein or leucine do we need at each of our three meals to elicit the most gain?
Amount of Leucine

The amount of Leucine you need is age dependent.

Older Individuals

They need over 3.0 gram of Leucine, as the minimum.

That means they need around 40 gram of a quality protein.

Younger Individuals

They need around 2.5 gram of Leucine, as the minimum.

That means they need around 30 gram of a quality protein.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Last edited:

Joe Fraser

Triple-Digit Post Count
I know you used the word "quality" protein but I think it is worth elaboration.

Will 40 grams of protein always have a ratio that will bring in over 2.5g of Leucine? Or only if it comes from an animal source?

My tortilla wrap that has 12g of protein for instance, potentially does not come from an animal source would I need to eat more protein to make up for this?
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I know you used the word "quality" protein but I think it is worth elaboration.

Will 40 grams of protein always have a ratio that will bring in over 2.5g of Leucine? Or only if it comes from an animal source?
Leucine Quality Proteins

Animal protein sources contain higher percentages (amount of Leucine) than plant based proteins.

There is a pecking order within the animal proteins, as follows.

1) Whey Protein: It is composed of 10% plus Leucine. That means you don't need as much whey to obtain enough Leucine.

25 gram of Whey will yield around 2.5 gram of Leucine (25 gram X 10% = 2.5 gram of Leucine).

That is one of the reasons that Whey is considered to be an "Anabolic Protein".

A secondary reason is that Whey is quickly digested, in around 20 minutes (Hydrolyzed Whey) to 120 minutes for Whey Concentrate.

2) Caseinate Protein: It is composed of 8% Leucine. That means you need a slightly larger serving than Whey to obtain the same amount of Leucine.

31 gram of Caseinate will provide right at 2.5 gram of Leucine (31 grams X 8% =2.48 grams of Leucine)

Caseinate Protein is considered the "Anti-Catabolic Protein". It takes around 5 hours to digested; think of it as a "Time Released Protein".

That is why Caseinate Protein is considered a good protein to take before going to bed; which amount to an 8 hour fast. It continues to feed the muscle through the night.

3) Meats, Cheeses, and Milk: Like Caseinate, they are composed of around 8% Leucine.

Milk is slightly higher in Leucine because it is 80% Caseinate and 20% Whey.

My tortilla wrap that has 12g of protein for instance, potentially does not come from an animal source would I need to eat more protein to make up for this?
Not Enough

1) 12 grams of protein doesn't contain enough protein, even if it was from Whey; that yields the greatest amount of Leucine.

2) Vegan Proteins are very low in Leucine. You need to have around 4 - 5 Tortilla Wraps to get enough Leucine. Pea Protein appears to be a good, high Leucine Protein.

A Solution

If you protein intake does not contain enough Leucine, you can supplement your meal with a Leucine Power; Leucine is fairly inexpensive.

Added leucine makes wheat protein as anabolic as whey

Research by Dr Layne Norton demonstrated that when a low Leucine Vegan Protein like Wheat was spiked with Leucine, it produces an anabolic, muscle growth effect.

Read The Label

Most Protein Powders list the amount of Leucine and other Amino Acids per serving. So, read the label.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Last edited:

Joe Fraser

Triple-Digit Post Count
Thanks for the breakdown Kenny! The difference isn't drastic

25 grams protein from whey (or ~20G taken with milk)

=

30G of animal protein
 

HUNTER1313

More than 500 posts
Does the leucine pulses offset cortisol? The reason I ask is I read an article saying to keep your workouts to around thirty minutes as this is when your hormones peak and around the forty five minute mark they drop and cortisol starts to hit. As I've said, being a construction worker, all day is a workout. Yesterday I cut, hauled, and bent rebar.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Does the leucine pulses offset cortisol?
Cortisol

Cortisol isn't the villain it has been portrayed to be. There'a plenty of misinformation on Cortisol that continues to be perpetuated that is incorrect.

Acute (short term) Cortisol Elevation has some health benefits, such as burning fat for energy.

Like Acute Inflammation it is part of the healing process. Shutting it down means it takes you longer to recover.

Chronic Cortisol Elevation produces a multitude of health issues.

All About Cortisol
All About Cortisol | Precision Nutrition

"By raising plasma glucose levels, cortisol provides the body with the energy it requires to combat stress from trauma, illness, fright, infection, bleeding, etc."

"Acutely, cortisol also mobilizes fatty acids from fat cells and even helps to maintain blood pressure."

As it’s part of the inflammatory response, cortisol is necessary for recovery from injury. However, chronically high levels of cortisol in the blood can decrease white blood cells and antibody formation, which can lower immunity.

"Whether these effects are “good” or “bad” depends on whether cortisol’s release is acute (ie brief and infrequent) or chronic (ie ongoing)."

Leucine and Cortisol

Leucine increases the release of Insulin. Insulin shuts down cortisol. So yes, Pulse Feeding with enough Leucine dampens or shut down cortisol.

I read an article saying to keep your workouts to around thirty minutes as this is when your hormones peak and around the forty five minute mark they drop and cortisol starts to hit.
Short Intense Training Session

Yes, they peak anabolic hormones.

Summary

Acute Cortisol Elevation post workout is part of the healing process; it a good thing.

Chronic Cortisol Elevation contributes to health issues.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Last edited:

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
mTOR is Peter Attia’s hobby also.
Thanks Al for mentioning Peter Attia. Currently in deep with sleep researcher Matthew Walker. Excellent show, balanced, informative and searching. Good for many dog walks...thank you
 

HUNTER1313

More than 500 posts
So during the week when I know I'll be busting my a#@ and killing myself it would be advisable to have the protein spikes/snacks spaced out every four to six hours and on the weekends when it's more fun time and less work I can fast and let mtor "reset or rest".
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
So during the week when I know I'll be busting my a#@ and killing myself it would be advisable to have the protein spikes/snacks spaced out every four to six hours and on the weekends when it's more fun time and less work I can fast and let mtor "reset or rest".
That is one way of doing it.

Kenny Croxdale
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Another thing....insulin.
If mTor and ampk represent in a simplistic manner the fed and fasting states....or with fluctuations and waves of hormonal regulation, then, if seeking muscle growth it's not just about leucine in post exercising fueling but also using insulin to create greater mTor signalling, isn't it? With carbs.
If then seeking balance, go with lower carb or none or no food to optimise ampk.
Surely....if seeking optimum protein synthesis but not by using insulin/carb response and only leucine then you're not getting the optimum coveted response?
And it follows then that lower insulin but mTor activated protein response will demand greater leucine? Leucine is ketogenic and it could be used for energy rather than protein synthesis.
Note....I'm not advocating a high insulin response 24/7.....just eat some carbs after exercise if you want to optimise that pathway with your protein/leucine.
If healthy that is, not diabetic etc.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
If mTor and ampk represent in a simplistic manner the fed and fasting states....or with fluctuations and waves of hormonal regulation, then, if seeking muscle growth it's not just about leucine in post exercising fueling but also using insulin to create greater mTor signalling, isn't it? With carbs.
Insulin Is Anabolic

Insulin is "Globally Anabolic". It does not discriminate.

It promotes muscle growth as well as an increase in body fat.

As per Jay Robb (nutritionist), "Insulin is a fat maker..."

Like Goldilocks, the key is finding what just right, as with everything.

Leucine Trigger Insulin

Leucine increase insulin production, although not to the same degree protein mixed with a high glucemic index carbohydrate (Dextros or Maltodextrin).

Whey Protein increases insulin production due it high content of Leucine: Leucine is 10% of Whey.

That means that Leucine, Branch Chain Amino Acids or Whey Protein appear to produce an anabolic effect for this reason.

Adding some high index carbohydrate to the mix bumps of the effect. Some experimentation is required to see what might be effective for you.

If then seeking balance, go with lower carb or none or no food to optimise ampk.
AMP-k

AMP-k and mTOR are on a See Saw. When one goes up the other goes down.

Yes, lowering carbohydrates, lower carbohydrates and no food ramp up AMP-k.

On A Side Note

1) High Intensity Resistance Training or HIIT Cardio Training turn on mTOR.

2) Endurance Training shut off mTOR and increase AMP-k.

Thus, someone who has an High Intensity Resistance Training Session and then follows it with Endurance Cardio has negated most of the anabolic muscle building effect of their Resistance Training.

Surely....if seeking optimum protein synthesis but not by using insulin/carb response and only leucine then you're not getting the optimum coveted response?
Questionable

As with most thing, it depends on the research data you're reading.

The data that I have indicates, Leucine is effective. Some research demonstrated a Whey Protein only beverage (no carbohydrates) was just as effective.

Due my metabolic condition, I am on the Ketogenic Diet. My training and recovery are fine with the use of Whey and Leucine.

However, it took me some time to figure out how to make it work. The Ketogenic Diet metaphorically speaking, turn thing upside down.

...mTor activated protein response will demand greater leucine?
Leucine Dosage and mTOR

The minimal dosage for younger individual to turn on mTOR is 2.5 gram of Leucine.

The minimal dosage for older individual to turn on mTOR is around 3.0 gram of Leucine.

The Minimal

Let think about it this way. Let say you make the minimal wage/amount of money to live how. That means at the end of every month you break even.

The same is true with true with Leucine. To get ahead you need to take more than the minimal about of Leucine.

My Leucine

Based on my age and my training I have dramatically increase my Leucine intake. My training session are going better.

My Leucine dosage with my meals is between 5 - 6 plus gram of Leucine. I spike my Whey Protein drinks that I have with a meal or consume a traditional meal and then have some Leucine.

I suspect that I my Leucine dosage may be higher than it should but since my workout are going better, I am reluctant to drop the dosage down.

As you said, "...mTor activated protein...in response will demand greater leucine..."

What I have learn is more is better. The question is, "How much more do I really need? Would 4 gram of Leucine work just as well?"

Leucine is ketogenic and it could be used for energy rather than protein synthesis.
Research indicate the Ketogenic Diet protects and spare Leucine from being used for fuel. Source: The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance, Volek and Phinney

Additional research show that the amino acid, Alanine is converted to glucose, sparing Leucine.

.just eat some carbs after exercise if you want to optimise that pathway with your protein/leucine.
Try It

...and see how it work for you.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom