all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Muay Thai fight conditioning

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Artallmighty

Level 1 Valued Member
Hi.
New account but a long time lurker.
I've been doing s&s for a year now and made great progress in my fitness and martial arts journey.
I have a fight 8 weeks away and wondering if s&s + s&s with push presses will be enough?

I use a 32 but recently went back down to 28 as I feel I can create a crisper full body tension swing.
I shadow box + hit the bag with footwork for LSD work twice a week 60-90 minute sessions and do up to 15 rounds of sparring once a week.

I wanted to incorporate cardiac power intervals and anaerobic threshold training using a heavy bag/pad drills 3x a week but don't know how to structure them for 3x2 minute round fights.
 
A fellow Muay Thai practitioner here.
Besides the bagwork and a weekly sparring session do you have your regular MT skill practice at your gym?
When it comes to energy systems - I think you have most of the bases covered. My experience is that at an amateur level (which is my level) gassing out is not the result of applying the right strength/conditioning protocol but not drilling the right movement patterns enough. Is the weekly sparing the only group practice you have?
 
A fellow Muay Thai practitioner here.
Besides the bagwork and a weekly sparring session do you have your regular MT skill practice at your gym?
When it comes to energy systems - I think you have most of the bases covered. My experience is that at an amateur level (which is my level) gassing out is not the result of applying the right strength/conditioning protocol but not drilling the right movement patterns enough. Is the weekly sparing the only group practice you have?
I have 6 fights so far and the determining factor was always conditioning/volume punches and kicks. I decided for this fight to avoid doing group sessions because they are always super long and. End up making me and everyone else slow.
I'll have a drilling partner for 3 times a week. To be honest, experiencing multiple fight camps by now, I'd rather be undertrained for a fight than over trained. I had to pull out of 3 fights due to over training and getting sick/injured. Deep down I knew, I should have just been following this forum but I couldn't separate myself from orthodoxy of the Mt gym. Covid allowed me to do that because I was able to improve all aspects of my fighting with s&s and everyone feels it.
 
Hour of sparring once a week.
Hour to hour and half bag work. 20-30 minutes 3x a week.
I do a combination of shadowboxing with sprinkles of bag work for LSD twice a week( working footwork, feints to a combo in the air/close the distance and unload a 10 punch combo/repeat), staying at MAF for 60 to 90 minutes.
 
I have 6 fights so far and the determining factor was always conditioning/volume punches and kicks. I decided for this fight to avoid doing group sessions because they are always super long and. End up making me and everyone else slow.
I'll have a drilling partner for 3 times a week. To be honest, experiencing multiple fight camps by now, I'd rather be undertrained for a fight than over trained. I had to pull out of 3 fights due to over training and getting sick/injured. Deep down I knew, I should have just been following this forum but I couldn't separate myself from orthodoxy of the Mt gym. Covid allowed me to do that because I was able to improve all aspects of my fighting with s&s and everyone feels it.
Hour of sparring once a week.
Hour to hour and half bag work. 20-30 minutes 3x a week.
I do a combination of shadowboxing with sprinkles of bag work for LSD twice a week( working footwork, feints to a combo in the air/close the distance and unload a 10 punch combo/repeat), staying at MAF for 60 to 90 minutes.
A very interesting schedule. Let us know how your fight goes. I've never been brave enough to entrust my Muay Thai to anti-glcolitic training 100%. I train according to the AGT principles in the morning with KBs and a skipping rope/shadow drills, glycolitic hell in the evening.
Also, my respect for shadowboxing for such amount of time. I struggle with the visualization part in general, can't imagine maintaining the focus for so long.
On the other hand, I would spar more before a fight. However, I have 2x fewer fights than you, so I might be mistaken. Do you feel 60mins weekly will do?
Have you considered doing glycolitic peaking 2-1 week before the fight?
 
A very interesting schedule. Let us know how your fight goes. I've never been brave enough to entrust my Muay Thai to anti-glcolitic training 100%. I train according to the AGT principles in the morning with KBs and a skipping rope/shadow drills, glycolitic hell in the evening.
Also, my respect for shadowboxing for such amount of time. I struggle with the visualization part in general, can't imagine maintaining the focus for so long.
On the other hand, I would spar more before a fight. However, I have 2x fewer fights than you, so I might be mistaken. Do you feel 60mins weekly will do?
Have you considered doing glycolitic peaking 2-1 week before the fight?
I've done roadwork in the past and shadowboxing with big emphasis on using lateral footwork with hands up to lower my heart rate been working much better for me.
In all my previous fights and fight camps I've been in, I 100 percent remember that my best performance was 2-3 weeks before the fight. So glycolytic peaking is what I want to incorporate towards the end of the camp.
Staying anti glycolytic on the bag has been working tremendously. It takes me about 20 strikes to get my heart rate to 75-80%. Doing so, allows me to explode over and over during sparring. But sparring is sparring, competing is a whole another ball game. Our gym has brutal sparring sessions and it's something I by myself cannot change. Americans love dutch style sparring
 
I'd personally do 2-3x a week of s and s and use the push press then switch to Q and D after 2 weeks..

I'd personally recommend getting more specific training from drills/clinch work as the fight nears.

Best of luck in your training let us know how it goes
 
I've been waiting for a thread like this:

Personally, I have found a major WTH effect when using S+S to train for MT and boxing. The key, for me, is to keep the S+S sessions more like an active recovery or loaded yoga. If the weight increases but the feeling of active recovery/loaded yoga stays the same (i.e., following the slow, simple progression plan laid out in the books), your baseline strength and conditioning becomes insane, and your ability to recovery becomes a huge benefit even during sparring.

The WTH effect that happened to me was this: I did an S+S session in the morning, then got suckered into a traditional gut-wrentching martial arts conditiong class (burpees, airdyne bikes, dumbell complexes, etc). I was suprised to find that I could maintain my explosive power while the young bucks ran out (I'm 40), and I was able to focus on technique (burpees can actually be great if you focus on crisp and correct movements). After conditiong came sparring, which went shockingly well. I just felt loose, in control, and like I could recover well during and in between rounds. The next day: S+S session to recover. There's some sort of cumulating effect that happens with S+S that is magic. If an S+S session with a 24 or 32 is a recovery session for you, that would seem to indicate that you are in great shape.

The push-press has never lived up to the hype for me. I always thought it would increase my punching power, but I think that it used some of it up. It's a bit high impact and the temptation to lift to much is strong. I found the best way to increase MT power is training MT (mitts, bag, etc).

I do believe in LSD (with a nice S+S the next moring to recharge) but I think that training in combat wears you down so much, and S+S is the perfect antedote to that. It recharges you and preps you for your next session, all while making your stronger, and it teaches you how to be in control and responsive to your energy systems.

TL;DR - S+S as a recovery is amazing for fighters. It just covers everything you need!
 
I've been waiting for a thread like this:

Personally, I have found a major WTH effect when using S+S to train for MT and boxing. The key, for me, is to keep the S+S sessions more like an active recovery or loaded yoga. If the weight increases but the feeling of active recovery/loaded yoga stays the same (i.e., following the slow, simple progression plan laid out in the books), your baseline strength and conditioning becomes insane, and your ability to recovery becomes a huge benefit even during sparring.

The WTH effect that happened to me was this: I did an S+S session in the morning, then got suckered into a traditional gut-wrentching martial arts conditiong class (burpees, airdyne bikes, dumbell complexes, etc). I was suprised to find that I could maintain my explosive power while the young bucks ran out (I'm 40), and I was able to focus on technique (burpees can actually be great if you focus on crisp and correct movements). After conditiong came sparring, which went shockingly well. I just felt loose, in control, and like I could recover well during and in between rounds. The next day: S+S session to recover. There's some sort of cumulating effect that happens with S+S that is magic. If an S+S session with a 24 or 32 is a recovery session for you, that would seem to indicate that you are in great shape.

The push-press has never lived up to the hype for me. I always thought it would increase my punching power, but I think that it used some of it up. It's a bit high impact and the temptation to lift to much is strong. I found the best way to increase MT power is training MT (mitts, bag, etc).

I do believe in LSD (with a nice S+S the next moring to recharge) but I think that training in combat wears you down so much, and S+S is the perfect antedote to that. It recharges you and preps you for your next session, all while making your stronger, and it teaches you how to be in control and responsive to your energy systems.

TL;DR - S+S as a recovery is amazing for fighters. It just covers everything you need!
My s&s sessions with squat warm up take me about 30-45 minutes. On average it takes me 90 seconds to recover back down to 110 bpm. Average hr during workout is 127-135 bpm. It truly is recovery/charging me up for the day. My resting heart rate is at 46 bpm this morning and I believe I'm only getting better. I also had a toe surgery 3 months ago with a k wire inserted. I did the Russian fighter pull up program and LSD work standing stationary hitting the heavy bag for 30-45 minutes 3x a week. That's when I lost a bit of strength and had to drop back to using the 28kg after the pin was pulled out
 
I think S&S as the mainstay throughout the year, then switch to Q&D 033 (pushups and swings) from 8 weeks out from the fight would work. Run 033 for ~6 weeks and have your last session about 8-10 days out from the fight to recover.

If possible I would be doing a lot more partner drills, technical drills, pad work. Nothing compares to having someone in front of you and it's very hard to learn and reflect during sparring. I mean, you're really learning different things in sparring vs drilling. The former is macro - you're evaluating your overall performance, gameplan, etc against whoever you sparred against. It's very general because it's too fast and furious to evaluate the minutia of any one technique. Too dynamic. With drilling, as you know, you can repeat the same technique over and over again in a semi live situation, do it slow motion then speed it up etc.

Joel Jamison has some good peaking programs in 8 weeks out. One of the best things you can do for an amateur is all out rounds on the heavy bag for the duration of the fight, + 1 round. If it's 3 x 2 with 60s rest, do 4 x 2 with 90s rest. Then 4 x 2 with 75s rest, then 4 x 2 with 60s rest, then 4 x 2 with 45s. As you said, volume often wins amateurs (also who recovers from the adrenaline dump). Learning to do as much as you can in a round is essential - not too much not too little. (Edit: this is a peaking protocol to do 2x per week for about 3 weeks).

Good luck with your fight and let us know how you go!
 
My s&s sessions with squat warm up take me about 30-45 minutes. On average it takes me 90 seconds to recover back down to 110 bpm. Average hr during workout is 127-135 bpm. It truly is recovery/charging me up for the day. My resting heart rate is at 46 bpm this morning and I believe I'm only getting better. I also had a toe surgery 3 months ago with a k wire inserted. I did the Russian fighter pull up program and LSD work standing stationary hitting the heavy bag for 30-45 minutes 3x a week. That's when I lost a bit of strength and had to drop back to using the 28kg after the pin was pulled out
That’s similar to what I do time-wise. It’s really something having a short session that gives you that recovery effect!
 
I think S&S as the mainstay throughout the year, then switch to Q&D 033 (pushups and swings) from 8 weeks out from the fight would work. Run 033 for ~6 weeks and have your last session about 8-10 days out from the fight to recover.

If possible I would be doing a lot more partner drills, technical drills, pad work. Nothing compares to having someone in front of you and it's very hard to learn and reflect during sparring. I mean, you're really learning different things in sparring vs drilling. The former is macro - you're evaluating your overall performance, gameplan, etc against whoever you sparred against. It's very general because it's too fast and furious to evaluate the minutia of any one technique. Too dynamic. With drilling, as you know, you can repeat the same technique over and over again in a semi live situation, do it slow motion then speed it up etc.

Joel Jamison has some good peaking programs in 8 weeks out. One of the best things you can do for an amateur is all out rounds on the heavy bag for the duration of the fight, + 1 round. If it's 3 x 2 with 60s rest, do 4 x 2 with 90s rest. Then 4 x 2 with 75s rest, then 4 x 2 with 60s rest, then 4 x 2 with 45s. As you said, volume often wins amateurs (also who recovers from the adrenaline dump). Learning to do as much as you can in a round is essential - not too much not too little.

Good luck with your fight and let us know how you go!
 
I've been a martial arts instructor for 16 years. Many of those years were muay thai, currently that's only a part of the kickboxing system I teach. My experiences have shown me that weight training and "other" conditioning won't necessarily help you to not gas out. Another instructor I know brought in a guy from Thailand who was known as the "clinch king" to run their Muay Thai classes for a while. He had over 500 pro fights, and never did weight training but was an absolute beast. Seriously, he would do 5 or 6 1hr private lessons a day, teach a class or 2, all of which he would spar students, and in between he was hitting the heavy bag.
My opinion for fighters is that the weights should be used to get stronger overall. Do as little weight training as it takes to make progress, either adding reps or weight each session, and get your conditioning from jumping rope, sparring, heavy bag, shadow boxing, thai pads and focus mitts.
Jump rope at a fast pace for as long as the rounds of your fight, for as many rounds as the fight is. This keeps you able to stay mobile. Work your bag drills and pad drills the same, only add time each week until you do double what your fight is. If you have 12 3min rounds, you want to work up to doing 12 6min rounds. If you can do that, gassing out will not be a problem. But you don't want your strength and conditioning to take so much out of you that you are too tired to spar.
 
I've been a martial arts instructor for 16 years. Many of those years were muay thai, currently that's only a part of the kickboxing system I teach. My experiences have shown me that weight training and "other" conditioning won't necessarily help you to not gas out. Another instructor I know brought in a guy from Thailand who was known as the "clinch king" to run their Muay Thai classes for a while. He had over 500 pro fights, and never did weight training but was an absolute beast. Seriously, he would do 5 or 6 1hr private lessons a day, teach a class or 2, all of which he would spar students, and in between he was hitting the heavy bag.
My opinion for fighters is that the weights should be used to get stronger overall. Do as little weight training as it takes to make progress, either adding reps or weight each session, and get your conditioning from jumping rope, sparring, heavy bag, shadow boxing, thai pads and focus mitts.
Jump rope at a fast pace for as long as the rounds of your fight, for as many rounds as the fight is. This keeps you able to stay mobile. Work your bag drills and pad drills the same, only add time each week until you do double what your fight is. If you have 12 3min rounds, you want to work up to doing 12 6min rounds. If you can do that, gassing out will not be a problem. But you don't want your strength and conditioning to take so much out of you that you are too tired to spar.
It's something to take in consideration. But I started at an age that most Thais already have retired by. They are in peak form by 17/18 years old. Time is of the essence. Training traditionally is what got me injured and overtrained. Strong first principals work, I feel it. What started off as me just doing TGU to rehab a shoulder to finding out about this forum, been nothing less than life changing.
 
First off, best of luck in your upcoming fight!

I agree with @Wolfskill that you should do enough strength training to be strong enough but don't spend too much time there. Having been in the martial arts game for almost 40 years, (Muay Thai being one of them) my opinion has always been that while sparring is necessary it is overrated. Drills are king. They get you the muscle memory to transition quickly from counter to counter and they allow you to work your weak links. Whereas sparring is often only the few things we already do well, done over and over and over. Obviously you need to know what it's like to get hit, and if you have a few fights already then you're familiar with it. Also, it sounds like you're in good hands with a training partner doing technical work a few times a week. As vague as this may sound, If you're using a 32k for S&S and you're smart enough to bump down to a 28k because the technique feels more crisp, you have enough experience to know if your strength training is draining you or helping you.

Knock 'em cold!
 
I had 20 professional fights and about as many amateur fights. In my experience, supplementary conditioning was about finding the least amount of work to get the job done.
So much of “conditioning” is about efficiency and proper breathing. Two things that don’t get enough attention are the effects that the stress of the event has on you, and the effects of being hit. Not just hit clean, but absorbing shots on your guard as well. This will affect your breathing process and force you to tense up. No conditioning exercises will prepare you for these factors. It takes time and experience.
A few years back (in my early 40’s and at the time 25 pounds overweight), I was able to go 3 rounds with a top professional Glory fighter in sparring. I wasn’t “winning”, but I was competitive and not gassed either. If I would have tried to follow him through a conditioning session, I’d be puking on the sidelines less than halfway through.
Bottom line; find the minimum amount of supplemental conditioning and work on improving your ability to remain calm and efficient in fighting. Train habits not just skills in the gym. Beat of luck to you!
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom