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Old Forum My point of failure on getups is keeping my elbow straight.

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Jeff

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When doing getups, my weak link is in keeping my elbows straight.  When I have to terminate a set this will be the reason.

Is this the expected point of failure?  Should I be able to lock my elbows out and not really feel the load in my triceps?
 
Jeffrey,

Are you doing single reps and then switching arms or multiple reps on the same arm?  At what rep does your arm start to bend?

You should be able to maintain a straight arm throughout, have you had a movement screen?

 
 
I do alternating singles, no rest between reps, for 6 minutes.

I am not sure at what rep my arm begins to bend.  I know it becomes difficult around the 4-5 minute mark.  Last night I noticed that towards the end that my wrist is bending back a bit.  I will focus on keeping my wrist flexed and see if that helps.  I don't see how it would, but since everything is connected together, I guess somehow it might be possible.  In any case, better for the wrist.

I have not had a movement screen.

Keeping my elbow locked out is the only part of the movement that really feels difficult.  It used to be the roll to elbow, but ever since I started Becoming Bulletproof the roll to elbow doesn't seem anywhere near as difficult as it used to.
 
Can you lock your elbow out in general?

 

It could be a few different things. If you can have someone screen you that would be great. I have a feeling it could be a t-spine, shoulder or neck restriction causing the issue.

 

You can try some shoulder and neck rotations in each stage of the tgu and see if you find any restrictions.

I have a similar issue, I have a type 3 acromiom on both shoulders which limits how I move the bell, especially overhead.

 

As far as BB goes, those drills help clean up reflexive stability which is vital to the roll to elbow.
 
Would the rotations fix the restrictions or just detect them?

if I do rotations at each stage, that will cause it to take much longer to complete each rep.  Do I want to do this as my getup session or should this be practice outside of my regular session?  Do I need to do the getups with rotations with the same size bell I am currently working on, or would it be just as effective to use a smaller bell.
 
It would most likely help you assess how you are moving at each stage. It will take a bit longer on each rep but use this as a small assessment.  I would go pretty light with the rotations and play around at each position.

 

If you can move your neck freely at each point of the TGU, it hopefully means that you aren't shrugging, which is good.

 

I still think that your best situation would be to get screened. It will give you a direction instead of just guessing
 
if I do rotations at each stage, that will cause it to take much longer to complete each rep.  Do I want to do this as my getup session or should this be practice outside of my regular session?  Do I need to do the getups with rotations with the same size bell I am currently working on, or would it be just as effective to use a smaller bell.
If you don't try the above, then you're not doing as many quality reps as you could be anyway. At this point, I think the focus should be on the quality of the movement and not the load, total time or rep count. How do you feel with a lighter bell? It sounds like now you start off fine and then get tired which allows your elbow to bend, but that might be secondary to shoulder restriction and/or fatigue. My elbows don't straighten out all the way and this puts a lot more work on the triceps, but it was much worse when my shoulder mobility was lacking. By only focusing on where my hand and the bell were and trying to maintain the line of gravity vertical, the most efficient compensation was to bend the elbow slightly. Either way, a video posting would be good. FMS check would be better.
 
I will see if I get a video.

are there instructions here on how to post them?  I remember someone saying that I could post a video on YouTube in a way that would only make it accessible to this forum.  Does anybody hp now about that?
 
If my head was at 12:00, and my feet were at 6:00, and the kettlebell was in my right hand, what position on the clock would it be best for the camera to be at for the best evaluation?
 
might be best to look at other get up videos to determine best starting position and angle for the camera.
 
Jeffrey,

From what source did you learn your technique?  Are you currently working with an SFG instructor?

Remember that we're engaging in these practices to learn the skill of strength.  Doing x number of reps in a given time isn't the focus, fatigue has to be minimized.  I'm currently doing TGU's with the beast on variety days of the ROP.  I need to take time between each rep to ensure I'm ready to complete the next.  How much time?  As much as I need until I feel as fresh as possible to perform the next rep.  The TGU challenges stabilizer muscles, once those are fatigued we start compensating by recruiting prime movers (such as the tricep in your case).

I agree that an FMS screen may show you what you need to address.  You could also try the aforementioned neck rotations in each position without a load.  Make a fist and balance a shoe on top throughout the entire TGU up and down.  You may find that you're unable to fully get into each position, or you may be able to and then change your pace or load to not fatigue yourself to where you lose form.
 
A couple of years ago I got with an RKC in my area.  I also used Kalos Stenos and Iron Tamer's DVD.  But, for the most part, I am on my own.

Would doing getups on your variety days be for a different purpose than doing them as part of the PM, where it is one of only two exercises and the only grind?

You very well my be right about me using my triceps excessively as a compensation for a movement restriction.  I have definitely had tight shoulders.  I guess that is something to explore.
 
I don't think I am being careful to keep my arm completely vertical.  Could that be the problem?

Regarding keeping the arm vertical, since the weight of the kettlebell is offset, then if my arm is vertical, then the overall load will be slightly offset if my arm is vertical.  But, if I balance the weight of the kettlebell directly over my shoulder, then the arm will be out of vertical, although that seems initially like the easiest position to maintain.

Is the combined center of mass of the arm/kettlebell supposed to be above the shoulder, or is the arm supposed to be as vertical as possible, which basically pushes the load off center?
 
Jeffrey,

My purpose for my TGU practice is to increase my military press max.  Using it in the PM is still intended to increase one's pressing ability.  "A push and a pull."  TGU serving as increasing one's capacity to generate higher amounts of tension to push more.  With the TGU one is under tension for significant time.

The arm should remain vertical throughout.  If it is not it is most likely an issue that needs to be addressed by FMS methods, or other mobility progressions as demonstrated by Pavel and other Master SFG's.  You have great resources in the Iron Tamer and Kalos Stenos DVD's, have you reviewed those in depth yet?  Chances are they offer techniques to correct your issue.
 
I think the starting point for me is to concentrate on keeping my arm vertical.  I will try to set my camera on something to video myself.  Sometimes people are not really doing what they think they are doing.  But, because the weight of the kettlebell is off-center, I think it comes as natural to balance the weight of the kettlebell with the arm at an angle rather than keep the arm vertical.  If you didn't give anyone any instructions and blind folded them, I would be willing to bet that they would not hold their arm vertical.

I will play around with this and see what happens.  Thank you to everyone for your input!
 
Jeffrey, IMO your distinction between keeping the arm vertical and keeping the center of mass of the arm/kb over the base of support is very valid.

I think you have to find the most stable groove for this by feel throughout the movement. The position that feels to most stable at any given point in the rep is the best. This may vary subtly throughout a complete rep and also depending on bell size.

Maybe I'm missing something here with all the talk of mobility and technique. Sure, if your t-spine and shoulder mobility are good, it's easier to keep the structure stacked and aligned to minimize the amount of muscle tension you need to stay locked out.

But you still need muscle tension to keep the bell in the air. No matter how good your mobility and technique are, that thing isn't going to stay up indefinitely. It has to come down some time, and the fact that Jeffrey's elbow lockout is the first link to go isn't necessarily a red flag (IMO).

 
 
Jeffrey, Steve,

A great quote from Gray Cook during CK-FMS, "We're built to compensate."  The body compensating for a mobility or stability issue doesn't mean it is a correct way to practice.  A heavy TGU requires a vertical arm (you've probably already seen this);

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuReIMksDS4

Thus I feel it's safe to say that if a technique is required to lift something heavier it should be practiced regardless of the weight used.  If your elbow bends while having a heavy load overhead bad things will follow.  Likewise if you're holding a heavy KB overhead during a lockout it will not stay there very long if your arm is not vertical with your shoulder packed.

 

 

 
 
fortunately/ unfortunately I speak from experience on this as several years ago I failed to maintain a vertical/straight arm while attempting to go from half-kneeling to standing and ended up with 135 lb. (40kg bell with weight attached) coming down very quickly and awkwardly around my hand in a racked position.  Not fun.
 
Zach,

I just don't see the basis for an assumption that there is any compensation going on. If you do military presses to failure, at some point you won't be able to lock out the last rep. This is not necessarily indicative of a lack of mobility or some kind of compensation. Same thing with a static overhead hold -- you can't hold it forever, no matter how good your mobility is. At some point, you get too fatigued to keep your elbow locked out.

If you fatigue quickly because you are using muscle tension to fight against your lack of mobility then that IS a compensation. But anyone will fatigue at some point.

The barbell TGU is not a good comparison to a KB. A perfectly vertical arm will keep the center of mass of the arm and barbell over the center of the base of support. But a KB will displace the center of mass outward, away from the base of support.

I'm NOT saying to keep the arm off vertical as a rule or cue. I'm saying that, since the KB puts the center of mass off axis, it is impossible to achieve perfect vertical alignment of the axis of the arm, the center of mass of the arm/KB, and the base of support.

Therefore, the best groove will be a compromise, albeit within a narrow zone around vertical. And that compromise will vary somewhat throughout a rep, and based on the size and weight of the KB (since a bigger KB will put the center of mass further off axis, and a heavier KB will exert more force).
 
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