Need a DL plan

Discussion in 'TSC' started by Sean M, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Sean M

    Sean M Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    This Saturday is 11 weeks out from the TSC.

    I want to set a PR. In March at the end of a barbell-centric cycle I pulled 325 for 5 as a rep PR. Didn’t test a max single at that time. I think I could do 375 (?) by 10/26.

    I haven’t done much DL since then.

    I think I have plenty of mass (6’0”, 220lbs @ ~23%BF, about 170 non-fat mass), but an inefficient neuro-muscular part of the equation to unlock my true strength. So I don’t know if I should be doing 5’s (like PTTP or Reload) or more singles (like Daily Dose Deadlift or Vodka and Pickles). Or a combination, like Surovetsky (2 days)?

    With 11.5 weeks, should I do a few weeks of one thing and then 4-6 weeks of a specific peaking cycle?
  2. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    My thoughts are, do one day of volume/practice (5x5, or 3x5 at a decent working weight but not super heavy) maybe on Mondays, and one day of 10 - 15 heavy singles, maybe on Fridays. Increase the weight as it feels right. Mix in your other training along with that. (Credit to @Al Ciampa if this look smart, because it's similar to what he had me do in one training cycle and I felt like it worked well along with training snatches, pull-ups, etc. )

    Since you haven't been deadlifting much recently, you want to get it solid again, which should work fine since you have been training, but not try too hard to peak off something that might not be solid.

    Then once it's solid, be smart about your 3 lift choices at the event, and you might surprise yourself.
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  3. Sean M

    Sean M Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Thank you - that sounds like Surovetsky! (Monday moderate weight 5x5 (tapers), Thursday or Saturday ramp up to 1-3 heavy singles). It’s 9 weeks (last week heavy day is meet day), so in the meantime I’ll break in with a similar template of 5’s and heavy-ish singles
    Anna C likes this.
  4. Ryan Toshner

    Ryan Toshner SFG TL, SFB, SFL, FMS Senior Certified Instructor

    If you pulled 325 for 5, you're probably already fairly close to 375 as a max. (The generic chart—which is reasonably accurate in my experience—says 5 reps is 87-88% of 1RM... so 325/.88 = 369.)

    So having said that, I'd suggest following a PTTP 2.o plan and making perhaps 2 passes between now and the TSC.

    Generic PTTP 2.0 template:
    - Warm up like PTTP (2x5, or as Pavel writes it x5/2... that's 2 sets of 5 reps)
    - Working weight x5, 3, 2
    - Optional back-off sets 2-3x5 of a different style (i.e. sumo if you regularly pull conventional, and vice versa) at about 80% of working weight
    - Increase 2-5% each session (but keep it a consistent increase), 2-3 sessions/week (maybe 3 sessions the first couple weeks when the weight is light and 2 sessions/week towards the end)
    - When you think you won't be able to complete the first set of 5 on the subsequent session, then you have two sessions remaining:
    - Session 1: x3, 2
    - Session 2: x2
    - Then start over (slightly heavier than where you started the first time)

    So for example (using 370 as your 1RM... because the program is a decent amount of volume, and you'll feel OK by the time you get to heavier weights):

    (Week 1)
    Session 1: x5, 3, 2 @ 255 (conventional; about 70% 1RM); 2-3x5 @ 205 (sumo)
    S2: 265 (just under a 3% 1RM increase); 205
    S3: 275; 215

    (Week 2)
    S4: 285; 225
    S5: 295; 235

    (Week 3)
    S6: 305: 245
    S7: 315: 245

    (Week 4)
    S8: 325: 255
    S9: 335 x3, 2 (conventional); 2-3x3 @ 265 (sumo)

    (Week 5)
    S10: 345 x2 (c); 2-3x2-3 @ 275
    S11: Do some swings

    (Week 6)
    S1: x5, 3, 2 @ 265; 205
    S2: 275; 215
    S3: 285; 225

    (Week 7)
    ... you get the idea
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  5. Sean M

    Sean M Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    @Ryan Toshner Thank you, the layout makes sense.

    Tell me more about the optional back-off sets. If I’m doing Q&D snatch protocol (on a different day or before DL’s) as snatch prep (with a more glycolytic day once a week) during the week, does all that “power hinge” work change the DL back-off set equation at all?
  6. Ryan Toshner

    Ryan Toshner SFG TL, SFB, SFL, FMS Senior Certified Instructor

    I'd do Q&D after DLs, if at all possible. You should still be plenty fresh, and the weight will feel pretty light (because you just got done with DLs). Better yet (if possible), do one in the morning and one in the afternoon.

    As far as the back-off sets... skip them if you're feeling particularly fatigued. Otherwise, keep it all the same. However, I'd also plan to do some prying goblet squats as warm-up (and maybe cool-down) every day as there is a lot of hinging, hinging, hinging in PTTP and Q&D.
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  7. Sean M

    Sean M Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    @Ryan Toshner Makes sense. So there isn't a specific peak timing with this, it's just work the progression, reduce volume the week before TSC (e.g. no back-off sets)?

    I do goblet squats most days just to clear out the cobwebs of a desk job.
    Ryan Toshner likes this.
  8. Xene

    Xene Double-Digit Post Count

    As Pavel stated in the book: Do power movements first. So Q&D first, rest, then DL plan.
  9. Ryan Toshner

    Ryan Toshner SFG TL, SFB, SFL, FMS Senior Certified Instructor

    @Xene , there's a time & place for lots of things. :)
    I know Q&D is power... but I still feel not particularly fresh after doing that snatch protocol with the prescribed weight and am really not up for deadlifting afterward. I generally feel and perform better on both deadlifts and snatches if I deadlift first. Your mileage may vary.

    @Sean M , basically, yes. Having said that, if you follow the progression above, you'll get in two 5-week cycles and finish the week before the TSC. My brother (the "crazy" one of the two of us—who has won the Competition division (formerly Elite) multiple times) has had some great results with doing the following on the Tuesday or Wednesday prior to the event:

    - Deadlift 10x10 @ about 20% of your estimated 1RM.
    - Treat each set like 10 back-to-back singles (i.e. reset completely on each rep, but do them all in a row).
    - Stand up as fast as possible on each rep (imagine doing a swing).
    - Rest 5 or so minutes between each set.
    - It should feel easy, and you'll feel fresh when you're done. But you also just primed your CNS to pull weight off the floor quickly, and that will translate well even when you lift something heavy on TSC day.
  10. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    Derek describes this in the StrongFirst Podcast episode where he is the guest. It's fascinating!
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  11. Norville Barnes

    Norville Barnes Double-Digit Post Count

    It worked well for me in the Spring. I followed the TNT 12 week plan that included the 100 reps at 20% early the week before. I PR’d in deadlift on my second attempt. Skipped #3.
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  12. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Forum Administrator Senior Certified Instructor

    Link, anyone, to the podcast?


  13. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

  14. Norville Barnes

    Norville Barnes Double-Digit Post Count

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  15. Tirofijo

    Tirofijo More than 500 posts

    @Ryan Toshner


    When you don't think you can complete the first set of 5 on the next session, do you still increase the weight for the x3,2 and the x2 sessions?

    I've started this program. Thanks for laying it out here.
  16. SuperGirevik

    SuperGirevik More than 300 posts

    Just to contribute yet another program (one that I'm testing now... almost done), here is the deadlift singles program (link).

    Ryan Toshner, what is the benefit of training both the conventional and sumo deadlift during the same session? And thanks for taking the time to layout a training program for us (y)
  17. Ryan Toshner

    Ryan Toshner SFG TL, SFB, SFL, FMS Senior Certified Instructor

    @Tirofijo , yes, still increase weight on those last two sessions. Even though the weight is heavier, it will *feel* easier because you'll only be doing 5 and 2 reps total as opposed to 10.

    @SuperGirevik , back-off sets are, in general, different variations of the same lift (i.e. close-grip bench vs. regular bench, front or zercher squat vs. back squat, etc). Grooves a similar pattern but works the muscles slightly differently.
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  18. Sean M

    Sean M Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    @Ryan Toshner This plan is going well so for. I am pulling top sets conventional and back-off “narrow sumo” (double-bell clean stance). Another cycle I’ll try snatch-grip DL for back-offs - for now it would be overkill with my snatching and pull-ups.

    I haven’t needed to peel off reps yet, but will report back after my x2 day before the recycle.
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  19. Sean M

    Sean M Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    @Ryan Toshner I had some scheduling obstacles, but I think I'm still on track:

    It took 4 weeks to go from 265 to 295 due to a vacation in that 4 weeks.

    Week of 9/1: (was travelling 4 days earlier this week, normally would've done Session 1 on Tuesday)
    • Session 1 (9/4): 295 x 5,3,2 (conventional), 235 x 2 sets of 5 (semi-sumo stance)
    • Session 2 (9/6): 305 x 5,3,2, 245 x 2 or 3(?) sets of 5
    Week of 9/8:
    • Session 1: 315 x 5,3,2 + 1-2 x 5 @ 255
    • Session 2: 325 x 3,2 (no back-offs) - I did get this for 5 in March, but that was at the end of SSNLP and I'm just not sure it's still there...will see how 315 x 5 goes.
    Week of 9/15:
    • Session 1: 335 x 2 (no back-offs)
    • Sat 9/21: 1RM test (355?)
    Then week of 9/22 start back from 275, work up to 325 x 5,3,2, then:

    Week of 10/13:
    • Session 1: 335 x 3,2
    • Session 2: 345 x 2
    Week of 10/20:
    • Session 1: Easy (just work up to 325 x 5? I plan to open at TSC with whatever I hit for a double that Saturday before)
    • Sat 10/26: MAX
    Will that work? I'm all ears for the easy session earlier in the week of TSC.
  20. freeflowme

    freeflowme Triple-Digit Post Count

    @Ryan Toshner, thank you for sharing this. My DL 5RM is only 300lbs, so I didn't think I needed to switch things up yet, but I've been beating my head against the wall of fatigue trying to keep up the original PTTP 5x/wk DL structure. This may be exactly the injection of training knowledge I need to keep moving forward.

    Question: if one was training the DL and the overhead press with PTTP 1.0, and the press and the DL have been trained for the same length of time, would it work to adopt a similar structure for the press (i.e. less frequent, but more volume on training days) to help keep the press progressing?

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