Kettlebell Negative press ?

[_Ghost_]

Hello all, first post here. As a 52y old French kettlebell learner, i'm grateful to read all of you sharing advices and support.
After few years of casual 2h kb swings, i've been training more regularly this past year ( mainly sessions of 1hand swing 24kg)
and would like to improve my press which is pretty lacking.

Problem is, i don't own any Kb that would fit (as a matter of fact i've got only kettlebell really (24kg)... the others are my used by my wife ( 8 and 12kg)
and are a bit too light.

I thought i could use something that recently help me reaching my first 2 consecutive pull ups (yeah i know, don't laugh...) and that is negatives.
As i can't really buy another kb at the moment, i could try doing sets of 24kg negative press sets? i've tried adding weights to the 12kg kb and check
what would be my 1 max rep on my weaker side and found that that would be 18 or 19 kg.

So would this be viable to gain strength? Training just negatives of 24kg until i can start doing real press? Or is there a better way to do it with my limited weight
options?
Cheers.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

For context,

What is your current bodyweight? How many pushups can you do?

I have also used bodyweight training to get my press to become stronger

 

[_Ghost_]

178cm, 81kg and 20 push up, after 20 i need to rest and even, then i can't reach 20 again.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Ghost
Can you hold the 12+8 stacked ?
If so, doing clusters may be an interesting option

Otherwise, yes the negatives are a good tactic. 3 to 5 very slow negatives, 3 to 5 sets, 3 to 5 minutes rest between sets.

A sure way to get better is also to add variety:
- vary the angle when you do push ups (feet elevated, etc...)
- vary the reps and sets

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[North Coast Miller]

In my opinion, yes, doing negatives to build up to multiple concentric presses is absolutely a path.

I would recommend using the Jerk to get the bell overhead if possible, or the Bent Press, both of which will require some technique learning. Or you could just use two hands to lockout and work on the eccentric.

 

[_Ghost_]

@pet' i"m pretty sure i can hold 12+8 stacked on both side, i actually did it with 24kg few days ago. I don't know what those clusters are though.

# North Coast Miller i've not tried to jerk 24kg i think i could do it once or twice but not for the duration of 3, 4 or 5 sets. I've done the 2 hands to lockout in the past granted it was not for the duration of 5 sets, i need to check.

Concerning push ups i thought i would try to load push ups instead of trying "exotic" variations of push ups which in my mind would increase my skill more than my strength, just guessing though.

 

[_Ghost_]

@pet' I've found the clusters you're talking about in a previous post. I'm going to try it and compare the feeling to negatives of 24kg, not sure i can do those with 12+8kg stacked for many clusters but will give a go

 

[watchnerd]

Hello all, first post here. As a 52y old French kettlebell learner, i'm grateful to read all of you sharing advices and support.
After few years of casual 2h kb swings, i've been training more regularly this past year ( mainly sessions of 1hand swing 24kg)
and would like to improve my press which is pretty lacking.

Problem is, i don't own any Kb that would fit (as a matter of fact i've got only kettlebell really (24kg)... the others are my used by my wife ( 8 and 12kg)
and are a bit too light.

I thought i could use something that recently help me reaching my first 2 consecutive pull ups (yeah i know, don't laugh...) and that is negatives.
As i can't really buy another kb at the moment, i could try doing sets of 24kg negative press sets? i've tried adding weights to the 12kg kb and check
what would be my 1 max rep on my weaker side and found that that would be 18 or 19 kg.

So would this be viable to gain strength? Training just negatives of 24kg until i can start doing real press? Or is there a better way to do it with my limited weight
options?
Cheers.

Push press the 24 kg, then do slow eccentrics.

I press quite a often, and this works for me with heavier weights than I can currently strictly press (e.g. I do this with 36 kg).

 

[pet']

Hello,

A cluster is when you rest, roughly 30s between each repetition. A set is usually about 5 reps. You can perform 3 to 5 clusters, with 3 minutes rest between each sets

Basically, it gives something like:
Cluster1: Rep 1, 30s rest, Rep 2, 30s rest...until rep 5
3 minutes rest
Cluster 2
3 minutes rest
Cluster 3
3 minutes rest
Cluster 4
3 minutes rest
Cluster 5

Of course, you can adjust the number of repetitions (3, 4, 5) and the number of cluster

The goal is to do each rep fresh.

This strategy gives both a lot of rest and a lot of volume. We usually recover well from this kind of training, which can be done 3 to 5 times a week. This is at least what I did and it worked well.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Papa Georgio]

Every party's got a pooper.

I've done the push-press with active negative in the past, but I'm no longer that hot on them.

I know it's a big ego boost to put up a heavier bell over your head, but my opinion is that the push press can build in bad habits and tendencies for "strict" pressing. Proper "strict" pressing is a true exercise in tension. Don't just try to focus on arm & shoulder strength.

Not saying don't do push-press with active negative, just don't do too many. Focus on proper strict pressing ( BUP included), and work on tension exercises such as the loaded clean (heavy clean with isometric rack hold), and even isometric waiter holds (with lots of tension)

JMO

 

[_Ghost_]

@pet' thanks for the clarification, i'm probably going to try those clusters, using either stacked 12+8kg strict press, or 24kg negatives with
a jerk to bring kettlebell overhead. I feel push press is still to difficult/technical right now with a 24 kg.

@Papa Georgio no problem with party pooper when it's put into perspective, as you did I tend to agree with you on the push-press aspect.

 

[_Ghost_]

@pet' i forgot to ask, you do one rep left the rest 30s then one rep right then rest, or, one rep left then right then rest 30s?
(sorry for the double post...)

 

[Mark Limbaga]

178cm, 81kg and 20 push up, after 20 i need to rest and even, then i can't reach 20 again.

You can also work on pike pushups

 

[pet']

Hello,

@_Ghost_
This is one rep left, rest, one rep left, etc.. until you finish the cluster. Then you repeat one right. Then you take 3 minutes rest

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Hung]

First, hello _Ghost_

(yeah i know, don't laugh...)

Second, quoting Black Panther, "we don't do that here"
Third, answering your question:
Have you ran ROP with 12 kg yet? ROP with light weight, plus practicing clean the 24 could help you.
Also, you could consider about focusing on bodyweight exercise. Pike push up, handstand with wall, dips, chin ups...with your current weight, you can still make huge progress with basic bodyweight exercise using hardstyle methods.

after 20 i need to rest and even, then i can't reach 20 again.

This is normal. Don't worry too much.

 

[_Ghost_]

@Mark Limbaga i've done some in the past but could only do a couple (flexibility limitation and not being used to increased blood in the head. But i could try to up mu numbers progressively.

@pet' thanks for the clarification

@q.Hung i had not considered ROP, thinking that my bells were either too light or too heavy (nothing in the range of the advised 6 to 8 reps, but i surely would consider if 12kg is helping me gaining strength. As far as bodyweight training is concerned i'm already doing a daily(ish) dose of GTG push ups so could progressively implement pike pushups.

I think i've got several options open now thanks to you, and am going to find a way to make good use of your advices, i'll let you know how it's progressing in case anyone is interested by feedbacks

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Push press the 24 kg, then do slow eccentrics.

Slow Eccentric

Slow Eccentric innervate more of the Type I Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Fast Eccentric

Research show that for increasing strength the Eccentric Movement elicits the greatest effect when it is lowered in around 1 second. This Eccentric Speed Innervates the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

1) It allows you to use a greater training load in the movement.

2) Force = Mass X Acceleration

Due to the increase speed in lower the weight, the bar load or in this case the Kettlebell load is magnified beyond it true weight.

Bench Press More, Now
Dr Tom McLaughlin

This book graphically illustrates how the Eccentric Speed of the bar magnifies it's true load.

Novice Lifters

Novice Lifter lowered their Bench Presses quickly.

McLaughlin determined the bar weight was magnified 149% beyond it true weight.

If they used 300 lbs, that load was magnified to 447 lbs in lower its too fast.

Elite Lifter

Elite Lifter lowered the bar much slower.

McLaughlin determined the bar weight was magnified 112% beyond its true weight.

If they used 300 lbs, that load was magnified to 336 lbs in lower it too fast.

The Take Home Message

It easier to drive 336 lbs off you chest in the Bench Press than 447 lbs.

Using Eccentric Speed For Overloading

While Eccentric Speed is detrimental for Max Strength Movement, it is and effective method in other areas; such as increasing Maximum Strength in traditional movements, as noted below.

Moderate to High Speed Eccentric Only Training

Barbell - Moderate to High Speed Eccentric Only Training

Short-term high- vs. low-velocity isokinetic lengthening training results in greater hypertrophy of the elbow flexors in young men https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.01027.2004 ...higher velocity (3.66 rad/s) isokinetic lengthening contractions are associated with greater...

www.strongfirst.com

Short-term high- vs. low-velocity isokinetic lengthening training results in greater hypertrophy of the elbow flexors in young men
https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.01027.2004

...higher velocity (3.66 rad/s) isokinetic lengthening contractions are associated with greater muscular hypertrophy than slower (0.35 rad/s) velocity lengthening contractions.

We observed, despite a >10-fold lower mean torque-time integral (Fig. 6), a greater degree of hypertrophy (Fig. 3) with a training protocol that involved only high velocity lengthening contractions.

Fiber type-specific changes after eccentric training
https://www.patreon.com/posts/fiber-type-after-28196633

Not every type of eccentric training causes preferential increases in type II muscle fiber area, and some types actually cause type I muscle fiber area to increase more!

#2. Preferential type I muscle fiber hypertrophy

...when slow eccentric phases are used during normal strength training, this causes increased type I muscle fiber size, ...

Slowing down an eccentric does not enhancement or recruitment so it is not "eccentric overload". It only increases time under tension.

Research shows the slow negatives do not elicit the most effective response.

Slow Eccentrics For Growth?
Slow eccentrics for growth? - Dan Ogborn

Dan Osborne found that with eccentrics/negatives is...

1) "...greater following high rather than slow velocity eccentric actions (29)."

2) "...as far as strength was concerned, fast eccentric actions were superior."

3) "...growth of type IIa and IIx fibres was greater with fast eccentric actions."

Negatives: You're Doing Them Wrong
https://www.t-nation.com/training/ne...ing-them-wrong

As per Chris Thibaudeau...

1) ..."going slower will not improve the stimulatory affect of the eccentric. ...it won't recruit and stimulate more fast-twitch fibers."

2) "The Essential Points: Focus on heavy and controlled, not on moderate weights lowered slowly."

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I know it's a big ego boost to put up a heavier bell over your head, but my opinion is that the push press can build in bad habits and tendencies for "strict" pressing. Proper "strict" pressing is a true exercise in tension.

The Push Press

The Push Press is a great movement for increasing a Press.

It is a different movement that elicits a different training response.

It is a Power Movement. It allows you to overload the top end range of the movement; which the Press isn't going to accomplish.

Bad Habit

A well preformed Push Press doesn't develop a bad habit or technique for your Press unless you allow it to occur.

One of the covenants of developing technique with any movement is once your form deteriorates, Stop!

Tom Allen

One of the best Bench Pressers in a gym that I worked out, was Tom Allen.

Allen's Bench moved up to over 500 lbs. One of his most effective Auxiliary Exercises was the Barbell Push Press. Back then I didn't get it. Now I do.

The Push Press with heavy loads, as with most Olympic Movements and the Deadlift, is primarily a Concentric Movement. Research and anecdotal data have found that when the Eccentric Component is taken out of a movement, training recovery occurs much faster.

Not saying don't do push-press with active negative, just don't do too many.

Slower Recovery From Eccentrics

Eccentric produce greater muscle damage.

Limiting their use (don't do too many) is a good rule.

Eccentric Overload Percentages

The maximum Eccentric Max is approximately 20% more than a Concentric Maximum. This is what you can work up to, not start out with.

Eccentric Training needs to follow the Progressive Overload Principle.

Start out with a lower percentage of your 1 Repetition Concentric Max; such as 70-80% and then progressively increase the load each workout. Doing so, ensures little or no Delayed Onset of Muscle Soreness.

 

[watchnerd]

Every party's got a pooper.

I've done the push-press with active negative in the past, but I'm no longer that hot on them.

I know it's a big ego boost to put up a heavier bell over your head, but my opinion is that the push press can build in bad habits and tendencies for "strict" pressing. Proper "strict" pressing is a true exercise in tension. Don't just try to focus on arm & shoulder strength.

Not saying don't do push-press with active negative, just don't do too many. Focus on proper strict pressing ( BUP included), and work on tension exercises such as the loaded clean (heavy clean with isometric rack hold), and even isometric waiter holds (with lots of tension)

JMO

Perhaps you misunderstand the proper programming of push press.

It's not a replacement for strict pressing.

It's an augment to be used in addition to strict pressing to get more work in.

Real world example using me:

I can KB strict press 36 kg for 3-4 reps. On my heavy days, I do 3x3@36kg

I can KB strict press 32 kg for 8 reps. On my light days, I do 3x8@32kg.

On my medium days, I do KB strict press to KB push press (strict press for first 2-3, then push press) for 5x5@36kg.


As for high tension KB waiter walks:

I do them at least once a week. They're great for improving lockout, carry over to TGU and barbell jerk lockouts.

But they don't help you get the weight *up* out of your rack.

And so-called "bone-on-bone" lockouts as a strength building technique has limits in that it is mostly building strength in that one position at the end range.

Olympic lifters don't just practice static jerk holds, because doing that alone isn't sufficient to build up shoulder / back strength -- we do presses, push presses, push jerks, etc, to build the whole chain along the range of motion.

 

[Papa Georgio]

The Push Press

The Push Press is a great movement for increasing a Press.

It is a different movement that elicits a different training response.

It is a Power Movement. It allows you to overload the top end range of the movement; which the Press isn't going to accomplish.

Bad Habit

A well preformed Push Press doesn't develop a bad habit or technique for your Press unless you allow it to occur.

One of the covenants of developing technique with any movement is once your form deteriorates, Stop!

Tom Allen

One of the best Bench Pressers in a gym that I worked out, was Tom Allen.

Allen's Bench moved up to over 500 lbs. One of his most effective Auxiliary Exercises was the Barbell Push Press. Back then I didn't get it. Now I do.

The Push Press with heavy loads, as with most Olympic Movements and the Deadlift, is primarily a Concentric Movement. Research and anecdotal data have found that when the Eccentric Component is taken out of a movement, training recovery occurs much faster.



Slower Recovery From Eccentrics

Eccenteric produce greater muscle damage.

Limiting their use (don't too many) is a good rule.

Eccentric Overload Percentages

The maximum Eccentric Max is approximately 20% more than a Concentric Maximum. This is what you can work up to, not start out with.

Eccentric Training need to follow the Progressive Overload Principle.

Start out with a lower percentage of your 1 Repetition Concentric Max; such as 70-80% and then progressively increase the load each workout. Doing so, ensures little or no Delayed Onset of Muscle Soreness.

The context of my comments are more aimed at learning one of the main principles (Irradiation in this case) behind Pavel/SF and the technical requirements of strict press as dictated by SF's certifications.