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Kettlebell Negative press ?

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The context of my comments are more aimed at learning one of the main principles (Irradiation in this case) behind Pavel/SF and the technical requirements of strict press as dictated by SF's certifications.

Lockout irradiation is icing on the pressing cake.

People who are having trouble getting the bell up and past the sticking points of the press need to work on those ranges of motions more.
 
even isometric waiter holds

Isometric Holds

Isometric Holds are a great training method. They are the only method that allow you to preform a 100% maximize in a movement.

Your max force/strength production is developed around 15% above and below of the movement.

That allows you to target a specific weak part in the movement.

Basing Your Training On Your 1 Repetition Max

Most training program are based on the use of certain percentage for Hypertrophy, Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

The issue is that you 1 Repetition Max in any movement changes from workout to workout.

The Russian Training Percentages

The Russian based their training percentages off their Competition Max. This isn't an accurate method for determining a Daily Training Percentage.

No one is going to be able to hit their Competition Max everyday that they train. Strength levels fluctuate on a daily basis.

Bulgarian Training Maxes

The Bulgarian were noted for preforming more training session with near maxes than the Russians.

This information is inaccurate but continuously perpetuated.

The misconception is that the Bulgarian Training Percentages were based on their Competition Max, which was not true.

This information has been posted on this site.

Training Max

The Bulgarian Training Percentages were based on their Daily Training Max, which is more realistic. I am not sure how they figured that out.

Due to the fact that they based their Daily Training Percentage on their Maximum Strength for each, that meant that it was much lower than their Competition Max.

Rather than the Bulgarian Training at let's say 90% of their Competition Max, the reality was it was more like 80% of their Competition Max.

The Take Home Message

1) Training Percentages based on your 1 Repetition Max (your personal best) is inaccurate.

This takes us back to...

2) Isometric Static Holds

This is the only method that allows you to produce you Maximum Force (strength) for that particular day.
 
Perhaps you misunderstand the proper programming of push press.

It's not a replacement for strict pressing.

It's an augment to be used in addition to strict pressing to get more work in.
Not saying that push pressing can be a useful tool to some people. But as a person who's strict press is constantly corrected by a certified instructor, I can only vouch for the role of muscle memory when you've overused push pressing too early in your kettlebell career.


As for high tension KB waiter walks:

I do them at least once a week. They're great for improving lockout, carry over to TGU and barbell jerk lockouts.

But they don't help you get the weight *up* out of your rack.

And so-called "bone-on-bone" lockouts use less muscular tension than you think. If this weren't true, I wouldn't be able to jerk 100 kg above my head and hold it there.
Waiter holds do a lot to help with the stabilization of the shoulder. These stabilizers may not help the press out of the hole, but they will definite put a limit on your pressing if not developed.
 
Slow Eccentric

Slow Eccentric innervate more of the Type I Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Fast Eccentric

Research show that for increasing strength the Eccentric Movement elicits the greatest effect when it is lowered in around 1 second. This Eccentric Speed Innervates the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

1) It allows you to use a greater training load in the movement.

2) Force = Mass X Acceleration

Due to the increase speed in lower the weight, the bar load or in this case the Kettlebell load is magnified beyond it true weight.

Bench Press More, Now
Dr Tom McLaughlin

This book graphically illustrates how the Eccentric Speed of the bar magnifies the it's true load.

Novice Lifters

Novice Lifter lowered their Bench Presses quickly.

McLaughlin determined the bar weight was magnified 149% beyond it true weight.

If they used 300 lbs, that load was magnified to 447 lbs in lower its too fast.

Elite Lifter

Elite Lifter lowered the bar much slower.

McLaughlin determined the bar weight was magnified 112% beyond its true weight.

If they used 300 lbs, that load was magnified to 336 lbs in lower it too fast.

The Take Home Message

It easier to drive 336 lbs off you chest in the Bench Press than 447 lbs.

Using Eccentric Speed For Overloading

While Eccentric Speed is detrimental for Max Strength Movement, it is and effective method in other areas; such as increasing Maximum Strength in traditional movements, as noted below.

Moderate to High Speed Eccentric Only Training

Short-term high- vs. low-velocity isokinetic lengthening training results in greater hypertrophy of the elbow flexors in young men
https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.01027.2004

...higher velocity (3.66 rad/s) isokinetic lengthening contractions are associated with greater muscular hypertrophy than slower (0.35 rad/s) velocity lengthening contractions.

We observed, despite a >10-fold lower mean torque-time integral (Fig. 6), a greater degree of hypertrophy (Fig. 3) with a training protocol that involved only high velocity lengthening contractions.

Fiber type-specific changes after eccentric training

https://www.patreon.com/posts/fiber-type-after-28196633

Not every type of eccentric training causes preferential increases in type II muscle fiber area, and some types actually cause type I muscle fiber area to increase more!

#2. Preferential type I muscle fiber hypertrophy

...when slow eccentric phases are used during normal strength training, this causes increased type I muscle fiber size, ...

Slowing down an eccentric does not enhancement or recruitment so it is not "eccentric overload". It only increases time under tension.

Research shows the slow negatives do not elicit the most effective response.

Slow Eccentrics For Growth?
Slow eccentrics for growth? - Dan Ogborn

Dan Osborne found that with eccentrics/negatives is...

1) "...greater following high rather than slow velocity eccentric actions (29)."

2) "...as far as strength was concerned, fast eccentric actions were superior."

3) "...growth of type IIa and IIx fibres was greater with fast eccentric actions."

Negatives: You're Doing Them Wrong
https://www.t-nation.com/training/ne...ing-them-wrong

As per Chris Thibaudeau...

1) ..."going slower will not improve the stimulatory affect of the eccentric. ...it won't recruit and stimulate more fast-twitch fibers."

2)
"The Essential Points: Focus on heavy and controlled, not on moderate weights lowered slowly."


All true.

But...

In my experience, novice lifters have a hard time differentiating between a fast-but-controlled eccentric vs crashing the weight down passively.

The "slow" cue at least gets them to be controlled.

They can work on speeding it up once they have control.
 
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Waiter holds do a lot to help with the stabilization of the shoulder. These stabilizers may not help the press out of the hole, but they will definite put a limit on your pressing if not developed.

They're a nice accessory for the end range, agree.

But you're majoring in the minors if you over-emphasize them.
 
Not saying that push pressing can be a useful tool to some people. But as a person who's strict press is constantly corrected by a certified instructor, I can only vouch for the role of muscle memory when you've overused push pressing too early in your kettlebell career.

Overused = improper programming

If you're doing push press for most of your pressing, on most days, you're programming them wrong.

(if your goal is to get good at strict press)
 
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Hello,

Below is a link regarding Prilepin table for isometrics

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
They're a nice accessory for the end range, agree.

But you're majoring in the minors if you over-emphasize them.
I don't think I'd consider developing your stabilizers as a minor. The stabilizers will dictate the ceiling of your strength. If this weren't true, we'd all train on machines instead of free weights.

Overused = improper programming

If you're doing push press for most of your pressing, on most days, you're programming them wrong.
In my case they weren't programmed. They were merely cheating the press when getting fatigued to get volume in. It's easy to develop bad habits that are hard to break. If you don't care about ever getting certified, I'd say do whatever makes you feel good.
 
I don't think I'd consider developing your stabilizers as a minor. The stabilizers will dictate the ceiling of your strength. If this weren't true, we'd all train on machines instead of free weights.

Developing your stabilizers is definitely not a minor as they greatly emphasize lifting potential on strength.

Developing stabilizers at a single, end ROM position, though, is not the same thing as training them through the whole range of motion.

A static hold in lockout doesn't train the stabilizers across the whole range of motion.


In my case they weren't programmed. They were merely cheating the press when getting fatigued to get volume in.

Don't do that.

Don't use them as a cheat.

But failing to program an exercise thoughtfully, or use it properly, does not necessarily mean the exercise is bad.
 
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Hello,

Below is a link regarding Prilepin table for isometrics

Kind regards,

Pet'


I use that for bodyweight, full body holds (e.g. hollow holds).

But I've never tried to map it to holding a free weight on a distal limb, nor do I know anyone who does.
 
My take, slow eccentrics prime you to increase motor unit recruitment. I know whatcthe studies say re fast eccentrics, but I'm not aware of any studies that only did eccentric. Lowering the weight rapidly into a concentric is a sure way to increase resistance at the bottom.

As for push press, the amount of push should be limited to just what is needed to get past the sticking point.

My stock answer is to just get a sandbag or rock that hits your 6-8 rep max and do sets of 3-4 reps. There is no need to confine yourself to kb unless you plan on competing or cert. Pick it back up when you're strong enough from other means to press the heavier bell
 
Concerning push ups i thought i would try to load push ups instead of trying "exotic" variations of push ups which in my mind would increase my skill more than my strength, just guessing though.

The "low skill" exotic push ups (decline, diamond grip) can add loading without too much time spent on skilling.
 
In my case they weren't programmed. They were merely cheating the press when getting fatigued to get volume in. It's easy to develop bad habits that are hard to break.

Allowing It Too Occur

I understand the perception on why you did it. However, as you realized by doing so, you created another issue.

This goes back to my previous post on...

Bad Habit

A well preformed Push Press doesn't develop a bad habit or technique for your Press unless you allow it to occur.

One of the covenants of developing technique with any movement is once your form deteriorates, Stop!

As per watchnerd...

Don't do that.

Don't use them as a cheat.

Technique Training

Once muscle fatigue occurs, technique changes.

Secondly, the muscle firing order also changes.

By continuing to push once fatigue set in turn he exercise a completely different exercise.

Squat-Morning Example

Some individual often turn the Squat in to a completely different exercise that shift the workload to a completely different muscle groups.

A Squat-Morning occurs with individual who have weak Quad Drive and strong Backs. Once their legs give out, the body goes into survival mode.

To survive the Squat at tat point, the body automatically shift the load to the stronger muscle group (the back in this case) to ensure you survive and get up with the weight.

It amount to having your best shooter in Baseball take the last shot in the final seconds of a game for the win, if you need one point.

In doing so, a Squat become a Lower Back Exercise that helps you Deadlift more so than your Squat.

Continuing to perform Squat that way ensure poor technique is developed.

Years ago, that was how I Squatted. I had not figured it out back then.

Inadvertently, I allowed that to occur.

Powerlifters

Many Powerlifter still use the Competition Lift as a means of increasing strength.

It increases strength at the expense of technique; a bad trade.

Westside Auxiliary Training Exercises

This program utilized Auxiliary Exercise that are similar in nature to the Competition Lifts to increase strength rather than the Competitive Powerlifts.

This method allows you to increase strength in a movement without developing poor technique in a particular movement.
 
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Wow very, very interesting read, i obviously can't comment on any of those infos but will gladly try to integrate them !!
 
@Ghost
My personal take w/ pushups is to load them. I find after I can reliably hit about 30 regular pushups my effort in for returns begins to diminish. Loading them up with sandbag on my back allows for straightforward progressive training.

That said I have gotten good results doing crusher pu's, decline etc. Loading worked better.
 
@North Coast Miller
I'm probably going to try loaded push ups and negatives. Now that i think about it, i can hardly do any bodyweight dips too, and improving that
might address my weak press i suppose. Thanks for the ideas :)
 
The context of my comments are more aimed at learning one of the main principles (Irradiation in this case) behind Pavel/SF and the technical requirements of strict press as dictated by SF's certifications.
@Papa Georgio, I agree with you on this for myself, but I my observation is that I'm in the minority on this. Some people, me included, find the combination of strict pressing, push pressing, and jerks to be too many different-but-similar things and the groove for some or all of them gets messed up. I avoid pushpressing, and when I need to get a weight that's too heavy to press overhead, I use the jerk. The jerk and the strict press are different enough for me.

And on the subject of negative presses, this was touched on in the original RKC book, if memory serves. I look at it this way - controlling the lowering of a weight, if you truly exercise control over it, requires less strength than a strict press but there is good carryover to the press for many people, much of the time. There are also many, many variations of this strategy, e.g., lower then pause at various points with the full ROM; lower relatively quickly to the area of the sticking point, then lower more slowly or come to a full stop at the stick point; near the top of the press, lower a little and press back up again, usually doable with a next-heavier weight because the top is the easiest part, and gradually lower a little more and more over time.

And some of these strategies can be implemented with a too-light weight, e.g., press up 2 inches, lower 1 inch, and continue that way all the way to the top, then lower 2 inches and press back up 1 inch, and continue that way until the bell is back in the rack position. Such a plan can rather quickly make a light weight effectively heavier.

-S-
 
that being said you’re other option is something I used to do with young female powerlifters and that top banded lifts. You can get a collection of 8 light bands and fix them to a high pull up bar and use the bands to help you get the weight to lock out. Different bands give you different tensions making your body think it’s different weights

So you're saying hang the KB from a resistance band tied to a pull up bar?

It seems like the bands would snap.
 
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