Other/Mixed New training block, Isometrics as primary resistance training

[Ricky01]

Hi

Sorry if this has been answered and I have missed it....but is what you are doing a form of Timed Static Contraction (TSC)?

My previous use of TSC is using it for 3 stage isometrics - 30 second set....all sets perceived levels of effort.
10 seconds at 50% effort
10 seconds at 75% effort
10 seconds at 100% effort

This worked really well and carried over to repetition strength.

Richard

 

[John Grahill]

For the curious, here is “progress pic” after 10 months of isometric only, three months out from my 55th. Am about 190lbs courtesy a lively bout with Covid a few months ago that pulled 10lbs off my bones. Have put back on about 5lbs in two months.

Keeping in mind this isnt a post workout pump pic etc, was not a training day and I don’t get a “pump” anymore from training anyway (unless testing vs sandbags). Not anything spectacular, but definitely can drive a stake in the idea one cannot support hypertrophy using only isometrics. In fact my legs are larger than they have been in many years, 31 to be precise.

My routine testing vs sandbag likewise demonstrates no defect in strength curve to leverage that is apparent. Am wondering what the hormonal response is to this type of training, the literature is might sparse on that point. The experiment continues…

My hat's off to you! You are obviously strong and look the part too! God bless ya brother!

 

[North Coast Miller]

Hi

Sorry if this has been answered and I have missed it....but is what you are doing a form of Timed Static Contraction (TSC)?

My previous use of TSC is using it for 3 stage isometrics - 30 second set....all sets perceived levels of effort.
10 seconds at 50% effort
10 seconds at 75% effort
10 seconds at 100% effort

This worked really well and carried over to repetition strength.

Richard

Sorry I missed your post. Am not that familiar with specifics of TSC aside from a few articles I’ve read. But don’t think that’s quite what I’m doing. All my ‘sets’ are 100% MVC with exception maybe of the 1/2 second pulses, simply because they aren’t held long enough to develop max tension.

Your example looks like classic DeLorme, I’d expect it to work well.

 

[marvinthemartian]

@North Coast Miller :
This looks really interesting. How newbie friendly do you reckon this type of training is? I an do Timed Simple without much effort now but have never tried hypertrophy training before. And do you think it would go hand in hand with some KB endurance training (longer periods of on the minute swings with step ups for active recovery) on alternate days?

 

[North Coast Miller]

@North Coast Miller :
This looks really interesting. How newbie friendly do you reckon this type of training is? I an do Timed Simple without much effort now but have never tried hypertrophy training before. And do you think it would go hand in hand with some KB endurance training (longer periods of on the minute swings with step ups for active recovery) on alternate days?

To the second part, they seem to pair well with moderate load conditioning/strength crossover work. Really, it seems to work well with everything as long as you mind the recovery.

I wouldn’t say this is hypertrophy training, although it does/can generate some solid growth. Really it is just an effective, joint friendly way to train non-specific strength. You can use it to develop power, strength, size, all depending how you set up your hold duration, number of pulses etc. To be 100% honest I could not even tell you how effective for mass without being paired with other work or HIIT. I did once use it by itself for a few months and did a good job of preserving mass and strength-this being very informal doorframe stuff. Good or bad, you can feel that it is not metabolically taxing the same way isotonics are, for me about a 300calorie per day “savings”.

For newbies there are a few not-very-critical considerations.

- initially it will feel very strange and unproductive, and this could detract from a genuine effort. There is no real pump and little residual heat.

- relative to the above, it can take a few weeks to really feel like you’re generating a lot of tension.

- I cannot say that everyone will experience this, but I felt a goodly amount of discomfort in my shoulders and elbows for a few weeks upon starting. I suspect it was due to higher levels of bearing pressure on those joints than they were used to from isotonics. It faded away completely.

 

[marvinthemartian]

To the second part, they seem to pair well with moderate load conditioning/strength crossover work. Really, it seems to work well with everything as long as you mind the recovery.

I wouldn’t say this is hypertrophy training, although it does/can generate some solid growth. Really it is just an effective, joint friendly way to train non-specific strength. You can use it to develop power, strength, size, all depending how you set up your hold duration, number of pulses etc. To be 100% honest I could not even tell you how effective for mass without being paired with other work or HIIT. I did once use it by itself for a few months and did a good job of preserving mass and strength-this being very informal doorframe stuff. Good or bad, you can feel that it is not metabolically taxing the same way isotonics are, for me about a 300calorie per day “savings”.

For newbies there are a few not-very-critical considerations.

- initially it will feel very strange and unproductive, and this could detract from a genuine effort. There is no real pump and little residual heat.

- relative to the above, it can take a few weeks to really feel like you’re generating a lot of tension.

- I cannot say that everyone will experience this, but I felt a goodly amount of discomfort in my shoulders and elbows for a few weeks upon starting. I suspect it was due to higher levels of bearing pressure on those joints than they were used to from isotonics. It faded away completely.

Ok, thanks for clarifying!

 

[Ricky01]

Sorry I missed your post. Am not that familiar with specifics of TSC aside from a few articles I’ve read. But don’t think that’s quite what I’m doing. All my ‘sets’ are 100% MVC with exception maybe of the 1/2 second pulses, simply because they aren’t held long enough to develop max tension.

Your example looks like classic DeLorme, I’d expect it to work well.

When I did this before I didn't really set up 'tests' per se. I did however know roughly how many banded pushups I could do so used that as a guide.

I tried two different set ups - using a 20/20/20 (20 seconds of 50% effort, 20 seconds 75% max effort, 20 seconds 100% max effort) setup:
Monday - shoulder press pushing vertical, arms at 90.
Tuesday - pulldown, elbows just lower that shoulder height pulling down into a table.
Wednesday - squat band around hips
Thursday - pushup, band around shoulders.
Friday - hinge row, standing on band

This didn't work that well and my total reps of full pushups dropped.


Other version....using a 10/10/10 setup (10 seconds of 50% effort, 10 seconds 75% max effort, 10 seconds 100% max effort)....

I used the same movements and tried this almost everyday (4-5 times a week probabaly). This yielded a rep increase for banded pushups for 2.5 minutes of daily work.

Richard

 

[North Coast Miller]

When I did this before I didn't really set up 'tests' per se. I did however know roughly how many banded pushups I could do so used that as a guide.

I tried two different set ups - using a 20/20/20 (20 seconds of 50% effort, 20 seconds 75% max effort, 20 seconds 100% max effort) setup:
Monday - shoulder press pushing vertical, arms at 90.
Tuesday - pulldown, elbows just lower that shoulder height pulling down into a table.
Wednesday - squat band around hips
Thursday - pushup, band around shoulders.
Friday - hinge row, standing on band

This didn't work that well and my total reps of full pushups dropped.


Other version....using a 10/10/10 setup (10 seconds of 50% effort, 10 seconds 75% max effort, 10 seconds 100% max effort)....

I used the same movements and tried this almost everyday (4-5 times a week probabaly). This yielded a rep increase for banded pushups for 2.5 minutes of daily work.

Richard

About 6-8 weeks in I tested against a bunch of sandbag exercises, this using a 12 second on-36 second off. All my lifts had increased by 25% minimum. Gains did not follow a linear increase, was a one time vertical step in the curve. But, the increase has stayed even as my bodyweight dropped following covid.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Interesting observation from a few days ago that may or may not mean anything.

Stepped off the back stairs at work and missed the bottom two. Landed with knee locked on one foot, hard enough to feel the jolt all the way up my back.

Was pretty sure I’d be in a world of hurt once that jelled but was fine, even my lower back.

Might be wishful thinking, but longer term use of iso seems to have “set the clock back” on some of my age related reduction in shock durability. It makes sense to me based on how well my joints are feeling.

 

[bluejeff]

I think I may have brought this up before. I think there’s something to be said about training in a way that stresses the muscles such that you don’t feel it in the joints, if that makes sense. @North Coast Miller do you feel that when you train your isos?

I know I feel best when I can literally feel the muscles I need for a lift better, if that makes sense. For example, my neck gets tighter if I don’t feel my delts squeezing during an overhead press, and vice versa. If I can keep the pressure on the delts, so to speak, my neck is much more relaxed.

 

[Ricky01]

have you ever experimented with this kind of isometric? It sort of combines a yielding and overcoming at the same time. What I am referring to is shown at about 4:20.

That is what I was referring to earlier as a Timed Static contraction....the way I have seen it done is to roughly push 50% against the object (the yoga strap) for 10- 20 seconds, then straight into 75% for 10-20 seconds....then 100% for 10-20 seconds.

I found 10 seconds of each better for the final 100% of max effort.

Richard

 

[North Coast Miller]

I think I may have brought this up before. I think there’s something to be said about training in a way that stresses the muscles such that you don’t feel it in the joints, if that makes sense. @North Coast Miller do you feel that when you train your isos?

When I first started I experienced quite a bit of joint discomfort, mostly in my shoulders and knees. Knees came around pretty quickly, shoulders took several months. This may or may not be typical…

Not much in the literature re isometric vs isotonic effect on the joints. I suspect a number of factors, again - I might not be typical but suspect am more than not. Am experiencing a looseness in the joints yet a feeling of better passive connectedness.

IIRC, static background tension in the muscles tends to decrease as we age, maybe this is arrested somewhat?

Some light reading:

Biochemical change in joint fluid after isometric quadriceps exercise for patients with osteoarthritis of the knee

Objective: The purpose of this study was to analyze the biochemical changes in the joint fluid, and pain relief resulting from isometric quadriceps ex…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Ricky01]

When I first started I experienced quite a bit of joint discomfort, mostly in my shoulders and knees. Knees came around pretty quickly, shoulders took several months. This may or may not be typical…

Not much in the literature re isometric vs isotonic effect on the joints. I suspect a number of factors, again - I might not be typical but suspect am more than not. Am experiencing a looseness in the joints yet a feeling of better passive connectedness.

IIRC, static background tension in the muscles tends to decrease as we age, maybe this is arrested somewhat?

Some light reading:

Biochemical change in joint fluid after isometric quadriceps exercise for patients with osteoarthritis of the knee

Objective: The purpose of this study was to analyze the biochemical changes in the joint fluid, and pain relief resulting from isometric quadriceps ex…

www.sciencedirect.com

It really is very interesting and seems to carry on fairly smoothly from what I was experimenting with long hold ISO's.

To gauge my level of understanding thus far. Am I right in thinking that for any particular movement (and it may vary based on what you are learning about how your body responds) you are maximally contracting - in very often a lengthened muscular position - for about 20 seconds and then performing somewhere in the region of 10-20 rapid fire pulses?

Generally how many sets (although I realise this may vary per muscle as well) per movement?

Thank you

Richard

Oh and you look great, very strong.

 

[Walker]

I tried two different set ups - using a 20/20/20 (20 seconds of 50% effort, 20 seconds 75% max effort, 20 seconds 100% max effort)

Other version....using a 10/10/10 setup (10 seconds of 50% effort, 10 seconds 75% max effort, 10 seconds 100% max effort)....

Hello, some time ago I followed the TSC Concept from Drew Baye. He recommended 30/30/30 seconds with an Intensity from 50/75/100 % to failure 2 to 3 times a week. I recognized doing 20/20/20 seconds worked better for me. I trained whole Body Sessions with a (broad strap) with 10-12 Compound movements or an alternating abbreviated approach with
DL /SQ
MP / Back Press
Curl/ Row
Pullover
Neck/ Grip
After these workouts I was breathless, full of sweat, shaking allover. I felt a general increase in strength, conditioning and endurance. I like intensive minimalistic slow or static training, it’s some kind of meditation.

 

[North Coast Miller]

It really is very interesting and seems to carry on fairly smoothly from what I was experimenting with long hold ISO's.

To gauge my level of understanding thus far. Am I right in thinking that for any particular movement (and it may vary based on what you are learning about how your body responds) you are maximally contracting - in very often a lengthened muscular position - for about 20 seconds and then performing somewhere in the region of 10-20 rapid fire pulses?

Generally how many sets (although I realise this may vary per muscle as well) per movement?

Thank you

Richard

Oh and you look great, very strong.

That is how I started. Over the course of a year I’ve been tinkering with the hold times etc and will continue to do so. IMHO this is the isometric equivalent of waving the load.

Currently doing a 10 second warmup followed by 25 second 100% effort, 25 seconds of 100% effort pulse shots (about 35-42 depending on the hold) then another 25sec steady state and 25sec pulse. All exertions separated by 30 seconds rest, so 4 sets with one warmup set. I take two minutes between exercises, sometimes more if I get my straps tangled or really felt it on the last exercise.

Am pretty sure one could fine-tune the hold times etc by muscle group/movement pattern but over the long haul all that needs to be varied anyway.

And thanks! Am currently in a challenge with a coworker to put on 8 lbs lean in 3 months. Doable but a real challenge to keep fat gain to a minimum. This will put me in the low 200s, just under 205 or so.

 

[rwleonard]

Have you tracked your blood pressure through this?

 

[North Coast Miller]

Have you tracked your blood pressure through this?

Not very carefully. Am also doing HIIT 2-3x per week, so there would be plenty of noise in the results.

BP dropped on average about 8% systolic, 10% diastolic, RHR dropped about 20bpm from mid 70s to mid 50s.

 

[Ricky01]

That is how I started. Over the course of a year I’ve been tinkering with the hold times etc and will continue to do so. IMHO this is the isometric equivalent of waving the load.

Currently doing a 10 second warmup followed by 25 second 100% effort, 25 seconds of 100% effort pulse shots (about 35-42 depending on the hold) then another 25sec steady state and 25sec pulse. All exertions separated by 30 seconds rest, so 4 sets with one warmup set. I take two minutes between exercises, sometimes more if I get my straps tangled or really felt it on the last exercise.

Am pretty sure one could fine-tune the hold times etc by muscle group/movement pattern but over the long haul all that needs to be varied anyway.

And thanks! Am currently in a challenge with a coworker to put on 8 lbs lean in 3 months. Doable but a real challenge to keep fat gain to a minimum. This will put me in the low 200s, just under 205 or so.

I think you can defintely hir your target weight increase. A great advert for ISO'S as well.

By 4 seats do you mean:
Set one - 25 seconds all out.
30 seeconds rest
Set two - 25 seconds pulses
30 seeconds rest
Set three - 25 seconds steady pressure
30 seeconds rest
Set four - 25 seconds pulses
??

 

[North Coast Miller]

I think you can defintely hir your target weight increase. A great advert for ISO'S as well.

By 4 seats do you mean:
Set one - 25 seconds all out.
30 seeconds rest
Set two - 25 seconds pulses
30 seeconds rest
Set three - 25 seconds steady pressure
30 seeconds rest
Set four - 25 seconds pulses
??

That’s it. I recently increased the pulse component by a few seconds and gave em their own set instead of tacking on the end of the steady holds.

 

[Ricky01]

That’s it. I recently increased the pulse component by a few seconds and gave em their own set instead of tacking on the end of the steady holds.

Nice

It seems like a great approach which you can tell is working for you. How have you found soreness, fatigue etc (I know everyone is different in how they respond to stimuli)? Long hold ISO's (bottom of pushup, hanging and the long lunge) were always touted as a way to expand movement capabilites with little to no soreness - not something I experienced.

I hit a 1.45 hanging PB today (only a 4 second PB)....that length of time is just hard.

On another topic you mentioned (or someone did) - the 'posing'....I forgot the name of the guy (Maxist??), but I went through some of the poses once when away....an all out set of 12 seconds performed once with a series of movements certainly made me aware of most muscle groups. There was maybe 3 of each body part contracting at different positions eg muscle lengthened, mid range and shortened.

All interesting stuff. Much is the same way ISO's are viewed - does it work to nus muscle and strength?? I can't say for certain....but as a way of working muscles in different ranges and their ability to exhibit force - yes I think they work. In that regard muscle building should be able to happen.

Richard