Other/Mixed New training block, Isometrics as primary resistance training

[North Coast Miller]

Nice

It seems like a great approach which you can tell is working for you. How have you found soreness, fatigue etc (I know everyone is different in how they respond to stimuli)? Long hold ISO's (bottom of pushup, hanging and the long lunge) were always touted as a way to expand movement capabilites with little to no soreness - not something I experienced.

I hit a 1.45 hanging PB today (only a 4 second PB)....that length of time is just hard.

On another topic you mentioned (or someone did) - the 'posing'....I forgot the name of the guy (Maxist??), but I went through some of the poses once when away....an all out set of 12 seconds performed once with a series of movements certainly made me aware of most muscle groups. There was maybe 3 of each body part contracting at different positions eg muscle lengthened, mid range and shortened.

All interesting stuff. Much is the same way ISO's are viewed - does it work to nus muscle and strength?? I can't say for certain....but as a way of working muscles in different ranges and their ability to exhibit force - yes I think they work. In that regard muscle building should be able to happen.

Richard

Fatigue and soreness are pretty mild. Use of overload eccentric type iso can create DOMS but is pretty mild comparatively. The tell is the ability to jump into another set with only 30 seconds rest. Also a near total lack of pump, at least on the day of training.

 

[Training for Life]

Regarding isometrics, Maxick and posing.

There is also a special form of Qi Gong, ancient practice somewhat nearing Yoga, which emphasises maximal voluntary contractions while performing a movement. I have practiced this form of Hard Qi Gong (or perhaps called Neigong) and noticed very interesting effects, similar to those of power breathing practices, but just much more comprehensive due to the different movements aligning the body in different manners.

I wonder if anyone here has experiences with this type of practice?

 

[Ricky01]

Regarding isometrics, Maxick and posing.

There is also a special form of Qi Gong, ancient practice somewhat nearing Yoga, which emphasises maximal voluntary contractions while performing a movement. I have practiced this form of Hard Qi Gong (or perhaps called Neigong) and noticed very interesting effects, similar to those of power breathing practices, but just much more comprehensive due to the different movements aligning the body in different manners.

I wonder if anyone here has experiences with this type of practice?

No but it sounds interesting.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Regarding isometrics, Maxick and posing.

There is also a special form of Qi Gong, ancient practice somewhat nearing Yoga, which emphasises maximal voluntary contractions while performing a movement. I have practiced this form of Hard Qi Gong (or perhaps called Neigong) and noticed very interesting effects, similar to those of power breathing practices, but just much more comprehensive due to the different movements aligning the body in different manners.

I wonder if anyone here has experiences with this type of practice?

I have experimented using isometrics through a range of motion, and in essence turning it into more of a “dynamic tension” where a lot (but not all) of the resistance is supplied by antagonist muscles.

My impression is this is something for the very advanced or the beginner. The beginner because almost anything done in earnest will work, and the advanced because a lot of focus is needed to maintain high levels of tension throughout.

I suspect a couple of things re this, one is that progress will be limited due to skill level of the practitioner and like martial arts, some will simply never become very proficient.
Second is that a very high level of individual muscle control (amazing really based on some of the demos) might not translate to non-specific work activity.

A fascinating line of training, I’m not done experimenting…

 

[Ricky01]

I have experimented using isometrics through a range of motion, and in essence turning it into more of a “dynamic tension” where a lot (but not all) of the resistance is supplied by antagonist muscles.

My impression is this is something for the very advanced or the beginner. The beginner because almost anything done in earnest will work, and the advanced because a lot of focus is needed to maintain high levels of tension throughout.

I suspect a couple of things re this, one is that progress will be limited due to skill level of the practitioner and like martial arts, some will simply never become very proficient.
Second is that a very high level of individual muscle control (amazing really based on some of the demos) might not translate to non-specific work activity.

A fascinating line of training, I’m not done experimenting…

The discussion is really stimulating great ideas.

Out of interest - the long hold ISO lunge is seen by many as the ultimate move. You are endevouring to make it an active movement like you mentioned above - not just simply 'holding' a position.

The way it is taught is to actively 'pull yourself down' into positon trying to get your front thigh parallel to the floor and your back leg straight (leg straight is really tough).

I have seen it mentioned to always be actively pulling down. Try also switching legs over pulling front leg backwards and back leg forwards (which you can't do). This leg switch does not have to be maximal because you then couldn't hold it, but it is active.

It is horrible....and then you have to wait a while....the whole time waiting you are realising that you have to do the other leg haha.

Richard

 

[North Coast Miller]

The discussion is really stimulating great ideas.

Out of interest - the long hold ISO lunge is seen by many as the ultimate move. You are endevouring to make it an active movement like you mentioned above - not just simply 'holding' a position.

The way it is taught is to actively 'pull yourself down' into positon trying to get your front thigh parallel to the floor and your back leg straight (leg straight is really tough).

I have seen it mentioned to always be actively pulling down. Try also switching legs over pulling front leg forwards and back leg backwards (which you can't do). This leg switch does not have to be maximal because you then couldn't hold it, but it is active.

It is horrible....and then you have to wait a while....the whole time waiting you are realising that you have to do the other leg haha.

Richard

You can reverse the move by doing it in a doorway.

I just finished my session for today - squat, ohp, hamstring ‘curl’, bent row.

When I set up on the squats I get my feet just behind the anchor points. Leaning back shortens the distance a la ‘overload eccentrics’. I had to pause the timer for a minute after the first set of pulse hits, my quads were on fire.

I am not sure why, but am expecting the pulse hits to trigger additional hypertrophy. I also expect them to further “shock proof” my old carcass.

 

[Ricky01]

From above I meant front foot pulling backwards and back foot pulling forwards.

Anyway .... the pulses are the most intriguing to me....on paper it seems like the most risky piece of the puzzle - think about hearing of someone standing up and their knackered fire....or don't and their back goes.

It's the rapid switching of and recruitment of fibers that should happen but doesn't. This is kind of how I see pulses going. I am not saying you will get hurt - just commenting on the rapid 'switching on' of a muscle.

A safe way to try this and to practice it:
Start in a table top position - on all fours, shoulders over wrists, hips over knees.
Suddenly engage legs, core, shoulder girdle and lift knees explosively about an inch off the floor. Hold for maybe a second and lower down.

Do 10, do 100. It is one of those 'what is this even doing' type movements. Then you do 50+ and you don't need to ask that question anymore haha.

Have you considered the pulses without the maximal holds first.

Richard

 

[North Coast Miller]

From above I meant front foot pulling backwards and back foot pulling forwards.

Anyway .... the pulses are the most intriguing to me....on paper it seems like the most risky piece of the puzzle - think about hearing of someone standing up and their knackered fire....or don't and their back goes.

It's the rapid switching of and recruitment of fibers that should happen but doesn't. This is kind of how I see pulses going. I am not saying you will get hurt - just commenting on the rapid 'switching on' of a muscle.

A safe way to try this and to practice it:
Start in a table top position - on all fours, shoulders over wrists, hips over knees.
Suddenly engage legs, core, shoulder girdle and lift knees explosively about an inch off the floor. Hold for maybe a second and lower down.

Do 10, do 100. It is one of those 'what is this even doing' type movements. Then you do 50+ and you don't need to ask that question anymore haha.

Have you considered the pulses without the maximal holds first.

Richard

From a response and safety POV it makes sense to me to use a longer hold first. Def seems to get the muscle to a state where one can safely jolt it. I also tend to have some preload on the muscle (20%?) and then I’m using canvas strapping which has bounce as well.

But yes, anyone just beginning overall or who hasn’t been working up to it should not be jamming hard out of the gate. Iso is pretty safe overall but is still possible to self-injure.

 

[marvinthemartian]

Hi @North Coast Miller !

I just wanted to get back to you and thank you for showing me this type of training with this thread. It is really simple and quick to do and helps me fill out a lot of the gaps S&S leaves. In September I have done a single set of 10-20sec using 1 different joint angle almost every day using following exercises: squat, overhead press, row, standing bench/chest press, curl, shrug, deadlift. At first I copied your setup but found that I can get great contractions in my muscles without the wooden floor board and the more advanced yielding isometric techniques that you are showing.

Doesn't sound like much. And to be honest it isn't. But I was stuck in a bit of a rut with being able to do Timed Simple pretty much every day and this has opened my mind a bit and given me a way to work on some physique goals without too much fuss.

Thanks again and I hope your training is working out for you as well.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Hi @North Coast Miller !

I just wanted to get back to you and thank you for showing me this type of training with this thread. It is really simple and quick to do and helps me fill out a lot of the gaps S&S leaves. In September I have done a single set of 10-20sec using 1 different joint angle almost every day using following exercises: squat, overhead press, row, standing bench/chest press, curl, shrug, deadlift. At first I copied your setup but found that I can get great contractions in my muscles without the wooden floor board and the more advanced yielding isometric techniques that you are showing.

Doesn't sound like much. And to be honest it isn't. But I was stuck in a bit of a rut with being able to do Timed Simple pretty much every day and this has opened my mind a bit and given me a way to work on some physique goals without too much fuss.

Thanks again and I hope your training is working out for you as well.

Glad to hear it! Yeah, if combining it with other work you don’t need to overthink it, you’ll get notable benefit with very little fussing around.

My own continued training is going very well. Am now just sort of experimenting, but am getting a combined “toughening up” in my joints along with respectable hypertrophy. Maybe hypertrophy is the wrong word since I’m having a heck of a time gaining more muscle, but am def becoming more defined even though I appear to have the same amount of pudge. I’ve never had visible striations on my lower lats or traps before. Gunning for 200 again.

 

[Cyrus-II]

You've mentioned your joints multiple times. Initial pain that has faded and now a more resilient feeling.
I have a lot of wear and tear on my joints. And several broken bones over the years.

I am still keeping the main the the main thing and most of my focus is on getting in three solid days of S&S with a goal of reach timed simple and then I plan to switch to "Easy Reg Park" for awhile.
But I experiment here and there, more bodyweight related movements. Dead bugs, crawling, dynamic movements and stretching. Really just listening to my body when it comes to what's too little, what's too much and avoiding injury.

I've been trying to research joint strength, specifically tendon and ligaments. It seems like many of these old time strongmen had a heavy focus on this. Some like Zass even claiming it was the key to his strength. With your experimentation with these isometric training sessions, have you noticed any thickening of your tendons and ligaments?

 

[North Coast Miller]

….have you noticed any thickening of your tendons and ligaments?

My understanding of research into this is that tendons do not really get larger, but they can and will increase in collagen content, and depending on how you train will become stiffer or more elastic. Longer holds increase stiffness, shorter jolts increase elastic rebound. I do both, so I have no idea what the effect might be. I have noticed an increase in hand speed during infrequent shadow boxing, but is undoubtedly more related to firing speed than tendon adaptation.

Biochemical change in joint fluid after isometric quadriceps exercise for patients with osteoarthritis of the knee

Objective: The purpose of this study was to analyze the biochemical changes in the joint fluid, and pain relief resulting from isometric quadriceps ex…

www.sciencedirect.com

This article mentions a whole slew of responses in the joint from isometric resistance.

There is also proven analgesic effect from isometrics.

Is possible I was on a trajectory to gain relief from some of my joint pains anyway, but everything has improved. That includes fascia arthritis in my lower back, golfers elbow, torn meniscus, patellar tendonitis. Sounds like snake oil…

 

[Cyrus-II]

My understanding of research into this is that tendons do not really get larger, but they can and will increase in collagen content, and depending on how you train will become stiffer or more elastic. Longer holds increase stiffness, shorter jolts increase elastic rebound. I do both, so I have no idea what the effect might be. I have noticed an increase in hand speed during infrequent shadow boxing, but is undoubtedly more related to firing speed than tendon adaptation.

Biochemical change in joint fluid after isometric quadriceps exercise for patients with osteoarthritis of the knee

Objective: The purpose of this study was to analyze the biochemical changes in the joint fluid, and pain relief resulting from isometric quadriceps ex…

www.sciencedirect.com

This article mentions a whole slew of responses in the joint from isometric resistance.

There is also proven analgesic effect from isometrics.

Is possible I was on a trajectory to gain relief from some of my joint pains anyway, but everything has improved. That includes fascia arthritis in my lower back, golfers elbow, torn meniscus, patellar tendonitis. Sounds like snake oil…

Very intriguing. As time goes on I definitely think I will be adding some sort of isometric work into my sessions. Along with more bodyweight focus a la "Naked Warrior". I'm also about to do a couple weeks of "odd object" training as I'll be out in the desert with nary a person to be seen.

Another thought that came to mind. Not exactly isometric in the...classical sense? But something that I remembered reading about, and cannot remember now if it was some witness to Crecy or Agincourt, but I do believe it was one of those two battles, and the subject was regarding the effectiveness of the English longbowmen. And more specifically, this little tidbit that stuck with me was regarding the adaptation in their bodies. Extremely tough connective tissue would develop and oftentimes even what sounded like a scoliosis and thickening of their spinal column to adapt to the extreme static loads put on their frame in an asymmetric manner. I know some bows have been made to match those described at the time and had a pull weight of around 200lbs!

How an Archer's Body Changes After a Lifetime of Firing Bows

There comes a time in every novice archer’s practice when their bodies start to change. But rather than grow elf ears and a disdain for grumpy dwarves, as one would expect, the changes are kept to beefing up the bow-hand shoulder and the draw-hand back muscles. For a glimpse of what these...

nerdist.com

I also knew a one-armed man who was an outdoorsman. He would deer hunt with a rifle, and waterfowl hunt with a shotgun, and had learned to handle it one-handed. He too had an impressively developed trap, lat and deltoid region...and an amazing grip strength even into his old age.

 

[Training for Life]

Regarding tendon strength, I found this very insightful:

He also has a bunch of other interesting lectures.

 

[Keen]

Regarding isometrics, Maxick and posing.

There is also a special form of Qi Gong, ancient practice somewhat nearing Yoga, which emphasises maximal voluntary contractions while performing a movement. I have practiced this form of Hard Qi Gong (or perhaps called Neigong) and noticed very interesting effects, similar to those of power breathing practices, but just much more comprehensive due to the different movements aligning the body in different manners.

I wonder if anyone here has experiences with this type of practice?

I have practiced a couple of different methods Nei-going - internal power

Iron Wire - It is considered a hard style, found in Hung Gar Keun (a run off Shaolin) is tensing & contracting your muscles as hard as possible. Can be done with iron rings on the arm.
If you have seen the movie "Kungfu Hustle" - the Taylor is doing that.

Zhang Zhuang - It considered a soft style, found in styles like Yi Quan. It is a light isometric / no big or low stances. The idea is full connection. To the most people they are just standing (around 30-40 minutes) but internals they are tensing the muscle very lightly to gain maximum control. For example when standing, try contracting your left calf without engaging your thigh or any other muscle.
If you are training fine motor skills for better technique - this is your boy.

Qigong is energy management - more like meditation

 

[Ricky01]

Very intriguing. As time goes on I definitely think I will be adding some sort of isometric work into my sessions. Along with more bodyweight focus a la "Naked Warrior". I'm also about to do a couple weeks of "odd object" training as I'll be out in the desert with nary a person to be seen.

Another thought that came to mind. Not exactly isometric in the...classical sense? But something that I remembered reading about, and cannot remember now if it was some witness to Crecy or Agincourt, but I do believe it was one of those two battles, and the subject was regarding the effectiveness of the English longbowmen. And more specifically, this little tidbit that stuck with me was regarding the adaptation in their bodies. Extremely tough connective tissue would develop and oftentimes even what sounded like a scoliosis and thickening of their spinal column to adapt to the extreme static loads put on their frame in an asymmetric manner. I know some bows have been made to match those described at the time and had a pull weight of around 200lbs!

How an Archer's Body Changes After a Lifetime of Firing Bows

There comes a time in every novice archer’s practice when their bodies start to change. But rather than grow elf ears and a disdain for grumpy dwarves, as one would expect, the changes are kept to beefing up the bow-hand shoulder and the draw-hand back muscles. For a glimpse of what these...

nerdist.com

I also knew a one-armed man who was an outdoorsman. He would deer hunt with a rifle, and waterfowl hunt with a shotgun, and had learned to handle it one-handed. He too had an impressively developed trap, lat and deltoid region...and an amazing grip strength even into his old age.

I have read about this before....although it was coming from the angle of using bands for training. You can see similarities of drawing a bow and pulling back a band.
There is no classic strength curve, more a building of tension depending on how far you pull back.

Richard

 

[Training for Life]

I have practiced a couple of different methods Nei-going - internal power

Iron Wire - It is considered a hard style, found in Hung Gar Keun (a run off Shaolin) is tensing & contracting your muscles as hard as possible. Can be done with iron rings on the arm.
If you have seen the movie "Kungfu Hustle" - the Taylor is doing that.

Zhang Zhuang - It considered a soft style, found in styles like Yi Quan. It is a light isometric / no big or low stances. The idea is full connection. To the most people they are just standing (around 30-40 minutes) but internals they are tensing the muscle very lightly to gain maximum control. For example when standing, try contracting your left calf without engaging your thigh or any other muscle.
If you are training fine motor skills for better technique - this is your boy.

Qigong is energy management - more like meditation

Very insightful, thanks for sharing. What kind of effects have you noticed from training the Iron Wire? Do you feel it's somewhat comparable to power breathing practices?

I have trained the Shu Jing Gong soft form to mobilise and rejuvenate the body. I feel great in the morning after a round or two. I have also practiced a hard Nei-gong form called Lohan Gong (not what you see on Youtube), which includes tensing and contracting very hard. Can also be done with rings. However, every time I have done a Lohan Gong cycle, I feel my body is not yet ready for it. I am about to start another cycle soon, so we will see what happens then.

 

[Cyrus-II]

Regarding tendon strength, I found this very insightful:

He also has a bunch of other interesting lectures.

Thanks for that. I've made it about halfway through. Kind of a 30k ft view so far. This is gold.

 

[Keen]

Very insightful, thanks for sharing. What kind of effects have you noticed from training the Iron Wire? Do you feel it's somewhat comparable to power breathing practices?

I have trained the Shu Jing Gong soft form to mobilise and rejuvenate the body. I feel great in the morning after a round or two. I have also practiced a hard Nei-gong form called Lohan Gong (not what you see on Youtube), which includes tensing and contracting very hard. Can also be done with rings. However, every time I have done a Lohan Gong cycle, I feel my body is not yet ready for it. I am about to start another cycle soon, so we will see what happens then.

Personally I'm not huge on iron wire. I feel you get more bang for your buck using heavy weapons training.
Also the breathing is too forced - which is considered a no no in qigong training.

However in Hong Kong MA circles they note guys who regularly do iron wire seem to live to old ages, longer than the traditional Tai Chi guys. When Tai Chi is considered the old age health tonic.
So what do I know ........

As for breathing techniques - I experimented for Kototama techniques (Japanese vocalised vowels done in seated meditation).
I found this highly powers up the body and carries well into MA training for stamina in sparring.

This type of training (neigong & Qigong) though it seems a bit subtle than lifting heavy, can easy effect the body/overtrain

 

[marvinthemartian]

Another quick 1 month update:
I switched from 1 joint angle per exercise almost every day to 3 joint angles per exercise almost every day. This amount of volume has a negative impact on my KB training and at the end of the week I definitely feel the fatigue in my muscles. Switching to less frequent training is probably better.

Another thing I changed this month was to switch exercises every week.

Week A was: Back Squat, One Arm Press, Bent Over Row, Standing Chest Press, Curl, Shrug, Conv. Deadlift
Week B was: Front Squat, Two Arm Press, One Arm Row, Curl Grip Chest Press, Reverse Grip Curl, One Arm Shrug, Sumo Deadlift

There is no real thought behind the exercises. I just wanted to cover most of the body and try different exercises.

Hi @North Coast Miller !

I just wanted to get back to you and thank you for showing me this type of training with this thread. It is really simple and quick to do and helps me fill out a lot of the gaps S&S leaves. In September I have done a single set of 10-20sec using 1 different joint angle almost every day using following exercises: squat, overhead press, row, standing bench/chest press, curl, shrug, deadlift. At first I copied your setup but found that I can get great contractions in my muscles without the wooden floor board and the more advanced yielding isometric techniques that you are showing.

Doesn't sound like much. And to be honest it isn't. But I was stuck in a bit of a rut with being able to do Timed Simple pretty much every day and this has opened my mind a bit and given me a way to work on some physique goals without too much fuss.

Thanks again and I hope your training is working out for you as well.