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Nutrition Not gaining during a bulk

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One of the issue with many "Smart Guy" PhDs who lift and push carbohdyrates is that many lack knowlege when it come to Training on a Ketogenic Diet.

Not only do that lack the book smarts, they have no practical experience with it.
I dunno if that is a fair criticism. For example Dom D'Agostino, who has done a fair bit of research into ketosis, has stated that for athletes without insulin sensitivity problems he doesn't recommend keto in instead recommends a diet containing carbs. (for context the interview where he said that)

it can certainly be done. If you have enough protein and excess calories (but not too many) and are working out properly you will gain muscle. It is just less optimal.
 
I dunno if that is a fair criticism.
Dunno

As you stated, you dunno know.

The reality is nor do many other.

athletes without insulin sensitivity problems he doesn't recommend keto in instead recommends a diet containing carbs.

Insulin Sensitivity

Insulin Sensitivity individuals are fine with a higher carbohydrate diet.

As per D'Agostino, "You wouldn't want to put a most teenage on a Ketogeinic Diet because their body is efficiently running off glucose and carbohydrates..." (4:50 minute mark)

D'Agostino: The Ketogenic Diet for Athletes

"The Ketogenic Diet offers so many advantages to an athlete and especially and aging athlete..." (4:35 minute mark)

it can certainly be done. If you have enough protein and excess calories (but not too many) and are working out properly you will gain muscle.

Knowledge

This take us back to the issue that very few individual understand how to make it work.

That in part due to the lack of research and data on how to make it work.

The majority of individual go on what they believe is a Ketogenic Diet. However, they are usually on a High Protein, Low Carbohydrate, Moderate Fat Diet.

As you should know, if Protein intake is too high, it is converted to glucose (glyconeogenesis).

Secondly, they are not consuming enough fat.

Thus, they are end up never being in Ketosis.

Enough Protein

A well formulated Ketogenic Diet protects Protein from being utilized as energy.

As per Volek and Phinney, higher levels of Leucine are maintaned on a Ketogenic Diet compared to the Standard High Carbohydrate American Diet. That means, not as much Protein is required on a Keto=genic Diet.

Thomas DeLauer

In one of DeLauer's podcast, he provided some of the reserach data that demonstrated the consuming around a gram of Protein per pound of body weight increased muscle mass on a Ketogenic Diet.

The Caveat

The research showed that the key was for that the Protein Intake needed to remain in the 25% or less of Macros to maintain Ketosis.

Fat Intake had to remain at 70% plus of Macro Intake. In the research study DeLauer went into, Fat Intake was closer to 80%.

That means calories increased!

200 lb Athlete Example

1) 200 gram of Protein (800 kcals per day)

2) 249 gram of Fat (2240 kcals per day or more) would be 70%/

3) 285 gram of Fat (2565 kcals per day) would be 80%.

Protein Intake Confusion

One of the primary issues is indivdiual incorrectly assume that the amount of Protein consumed on a High Carbohydrate Diet is the same amount of Protein needed on a Ketogenic Diet. I went down that road, as well.

The Upside Down Ketogenic Diet

The Ketogenic Diet turns the food Pyramid and everything else upside down.

What applies for High Carbohydrate Athletes/Individuals isn't the same for Ketogenic Diet Athletes.

That applies to...

1) Amount of Protein Intake

Ketones protect and insulate Protein from being used a fuel.

Intermittent Fasting work in using Ketones for fuel. Research has demonstrated that Muscle Mass is protected and perserved with a Fast of up to 72 hours.

2) Training Programs

I have explained this (ad naseum) regarding how to write and perform a Ketogenic Diet Training Program based on employing the Phosphagen Energy System.

3) Blood Lipid Profile Readings

The Ketogenic Diet modifies Blood Lipid Profile Readings.

a) LDL Readings increase due to the increase in Saturated Fats.

b) HDL Readings often increase. That due to the fact that Saturated Fat increases it, along with LDL.

c) Total Cholesterol Readings increase. That is due to the increase in LDL.

Total Cholesterol is the Sum of LDL + HDL + (Triglycerides divided by 5).

d) Triglycerides dramatically drop. That because Triglyceride Levels are determined by the amount of Carbohydrates consumed.

Cursory Readings

Individual with knowledge on how to read a Blood Lipid Profile of an individual can quickly ascertain health status by looking at HDL and Triglcyerides. These are the only two viable individual numbers that mean anything.

Most Physician are clueless in reading a Blood Lipid Profile with individual on a Ketogenic Diet.

It is just less optimal.

Base On What?

I have provided you anecdotal information based on Bill "Peanuts" West gaining weight/Muscle Mass and Strength by increasing Fat Intakle. drinking Peanut Oil.

I have provided you information on how I gained back 17 lb by following West Method with my "Fat Shots" of MCT:Avocado Oil.

"Your Feeling Don't Matter, The Facts Do".

My issue with the information that it's not complete fact based.

If you perfer believe it, that's fine.

My issue is when individuals continue to perpetuate misleading, misinformation.

it can certainly be done

The Take Home Message

That is the bottom line. Now let me punctuate it.

It works, for someone who's knowledgeable on how to make the Ketogenic Diet work and how to train on the Ketogenic Diet.

Unfortunately, very few know how.

As I have noted in multiple post, it took me a year to really understand the Ketogenic Diet.

The majority of individual rarely have enough knowledge to really be on the Ketogenic Diet and most chose not to mantain it long enough to obtain results.

Secondly, the majority of individual don't understand that a different training approach is required on the Ketogenic Diet.

It took me a year of research to to understand that the Ketogenic Diet Athlete/Individual obtains optimal results with a Phospagen Energy System Training Protocol.

Car Analogy

Individuals who go on a Ketogenic Diet without understanding theses caveats are doomed to failure or lack luster results.

Individuals who lack knowlege in this area amount to buying a stand car with a clutch, when they don't know how to drive.

Not Optimal

Most individual who try something new (Training Program or in this case the Ketogenic Diet, etc) don't know what they are doing. There is a learning curve to anything new.

What most of these individual do is blame that program rather than accept the fact that they may have inputted it incorrectly.

If something has worked for other and isn't working for someone trying that program, the questions should be...

What are they doing that I am not doing?

What do I need to do to make it work for me?
 
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5:06
carbohydrate tolerance decreases (as we age)...

Obese participants, independent of age, had reduced insulin sensitivity based on lower rates of glucose infusion during a hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp. In contrast, age had no independent effect on insulin sensitivity....The results demonstrate that age-related reductions in insulin sensitivity are likely due to an age-related increase in adiposity rather than a consequence of advanced chronological age.


The team found that, although strength training was effective at building muscle mass, high-intensity interval training had the greatest effect at a cellular level, specifically on mitochondria....Younger volunteers carrying out interval training showed a 49 percent increase in mitochondrial capacity and, even more impressively, the older group saw a 69 percent increase...High-intensity biking effectively reversed age-related decline in mitochondrial function.
These results are consistent with a previous cross-sectional study showing chronically trained older and younger adults have similar measurements of insulin sensitivity

 
Base On What?

I have provided you anecdotal information based on Bill "Peanuts" West gaining weight/Muscle Mass and Strength by increasing Fat Intakle. drinking Peanut Oil.

I have provided you information on how I gained back 17 lb by following West Method with my "Fat Shots" of MCT:Avocado Oil.

"Your Feeling Don't Matter, The Facts Do".

My issue with the information that it's not complete fact based.

If you perfer believe it, that's fine.

My issue is when individuals continue to perpetuate misleading, misinformation.
Here is one recent study demonstrating what I am trying to convey.


"Results: Body fat significantly decreased in KD (Keto Diet) (p = 0.030); whilst lean mass increased significantly only in WD(Western Diet)" (emphasis mine)

Note that both the keto and WD group in the above study had similar increases in strength.

Also for further info... Ketogenic diet does not affect strength performance in elite artistic gymnasts - PubMed found gymnasts lost fat mass, increased strength, did not increase hypertrophy

Resistance training in overweight women on a ketogenic diet conserved lean body mass while reducing body fat showed obese women on keto lost fat mass with no increase in LBM, non keto increased LBM.

Efficacy of ketogenic diet on body composition during resistance training in trained men: a randomized controlled trial showed trained men on keto lost fat with no increase in LBM, non keto group increased LBM

I'm not arguing that eating more calories doesn't cause weight gain, you and I are in 100% agreement that calorie balance is the driver of weight gain/loss.

I'm arguing that keto diets are less optimal for muscle growth as is shown in the study above and many well researched mechanistic studies demonstrating insulin's role in anabolism and protein synthesis. This makes perfect sense in a conversation about hypertrophy optimization. (eg, I'm not arguing that keto doesn't effect blood lipids)

The research on hypertrophy (although not conclusive by any means) basically shows that all else being equal, increased volume means increased hypertrophy. It is easier to get more volume in a format of 10 sets of six than it would be for getting the same volume in 20 sets of 3, all else equal.

Let me state my position in a clearer way to avoid it being read in a binary manner.

You can probably gain more muscle on a diet with carbs than you could on a diet without. This is due to the anabolism and increased protein synthesis effects carbs have, along with the increased recovery via glucose uptake that has been shown in many studies in the past.
I'm not saying that you can't add muscle or increase weight on a keto diet. Nor am I saying that your specific training style is held back or improved by the keto diet.
I am saying that if you put it on a better or worse scale, eating carbs to support hypertrophy is probably better. Better enough to matter for a specific situation and goals? I don't know, it depends on many other things.

I'm unsure why you feel I'm spreading misinformation or being misleading.

Also, related note, Bill "Peanuts" West got his nickname because he was eating vegetarian and ate a ton of peanuts, peanut oil, and milk to get calories. Using him as an anecdote for how to gain muscle on keto might be a bit misleading if it isn't made clear that the point is to illustrate calorie balance is the driver of weight gain/loss regardless of diet type.

It works, for someone who's knowledgeable on how to make the Ketogenic Diet work and how to train on the Ketogenic Diet.

Unfortunately, very few know how.
This right here is important.

There are many many people who know how to increase hypertrophy on a "regular" diet. There are mountains of research demonstrating how to do this and showing the current best ways to do this, the current best macro profiles to do this, etc.

If a keto diet isn't something you are doing, why would you throw out mountains of information to hop on a diet that has little to no demonstrative performance benefits and guess your way through to your goal? That doesn't make sense to me.

One of the primary issues is indivdiual incorrectly assume that the amount of Protein consumed on a High Carbohydrate Diet is the same amount of Protein needed on a Ketogenic Diet. I went down that road, as well.
This makes sense. Research shows carbohydrates have an effect on protein usage in the body. No carbs, less protein is sucked into the muscles.

The question should then become, does this reduced ability to use protein effect hypertrophy? I think that just that is happening in the above studies. But more research is needed.

Although to be fair, many "keto guys" insist that any keto research that doesn't involve a minimum of 6 months of keto dieting should be thrown out as the participants were not fully keto adapted.

Unfortunately, as you stated earlier, compliance so difficult that getting a random group of people and having half of them comply for 6 months is near impossible, which effectively makes human research into "true keto adapted" near impossible.
3) Blood Lipid Profile Readings

The Ketogenic Diet modifies Blood Lipid Profile Readings.

a) LDL Readings increase due to the increase in Saturated Fats.

b) HDL Readings often increase. That due to the fact that Saturated Fat increases it, along with LDL.

c) Total Cholesterol Readings increase. That is due to the increase in LDL.

Total Cholesterol is the Sum of LDL + HDL + (Triglycerides divided by 5).

d) Triglycerides dramatically drop. That because Triglyceride Levels are determined by the amount of Carbohydrates consumed.

Cursory Readings

Individual with knowledge on how to read a Blood Lipid Profile of an individual can quickly ascertain health status by looking at HDL and Triglcyerides. These are the only two viable individual numbers that mean anything.
Yes, as shown in the study keto seems to improve blood lipid profiles.

Although I think you are strongly under valuing LDL measurements and their correlations with cardiovascular risk. This is far outside what I've looked into but in Strong Medicine Dr Chris Hardy gives a very plausible mechanistic operation for types of LDL increasing CVD risk.

TL;DR: There are a lot of studies showing that keto is great for groups to lose weight and maintain and even gain strength, but the non keto groups increase lean body mass. there are also studies showing insulin's relation with hypertrophy. Ergo, carbs seem to be more optimal for increasing LBM.
 
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Here is one recent study demonstrating what I am trying to convey.


"Results: Body fat significantly decreased in KD (Keto Diet) (p = 0.030); whilst lean mass increased significantly only in WD(Western Diet)" (emphasis mine)

Note that both the keto and WD group in the above study had similar increases in strength.

Also for further info... Ketogenic diet does not affect strength performance in elite artistic gymnasts - PubMed found gymnasts lost fat mass, increased strength, did not increase hypertrophy

Resistance training in overweight women on a ketogenic diet conserved lean body mass while reducing body fat showed obese women on keto lost fat mass with no increase in LBM, non keto increased LBM.

Efficacy of ketogenic diet on body composition during resistance training in trained men: a randomized controlled trial showed trained men on keto lost fat with no increase in LBM, non keto group increased LBM

I'm not arguing that eating more calories doesn't cause weight gain, you and I are in 100% agreement that calorie balance is the driver of weight gain/loss.

I'm arguing that keto diets are less optimal for muscle growth as is shown in the study above and many well researched mechanistic studies demonstrating insulin's role in anabolism and protein synthesis. This makes perfect sense in a conversation about hypertrophy optimization. (eg, I'm not arguing that keto doesn't effect blood lipids)

The research on hypertrophy (although not conclusive by any means) basically shows that all else being equal, increased volume means increased hypertrophy. It is easier to get more volume in a format of 10 sets of six than it would be for getting the same volume in 20 sets of 3, all else equal.

Let me state my position in a clearer way to avoid it being read in a binary manner.

You can probably gain more muscle on a diet with carbs than you could on a diet without. This is due to the anabolism and increased protein synthesis effects carbs have, along with the increased recovery via glucose uptake that has been shown in many studies in the past.
I'm not saying that you can't add muscle or increase weight on a keto diet. Nor am I saying that your specific training style is held back or improved by the keto diet.
I am saying that if you put it on a better or worse scale, eating carbs to support hypertrophy is probably better. Better enough to matter for a specific situation and goals? I don't know, it depends on many other things.

I'm unsure why you feel I'm spreading misinformation or being misleading.

Also, related note, Bill "Peanuts" West got his nickname because he was eating vegetarian and ate a ton of peanuts, peanut oil, and milk to get calories. Using him as an anecdote for how to gain muscle on keto might be a bit misleading if it isn't made clear that the point is to illustrate calorie balance is the driver of weight gain/loss regardless of diet type.


This right here is important.

There are many many people who know how to increase hypertrophy on a "regular" diet. There are mountains of research demonstrating how to do this and showing the current best ways to do this, the current best macro profiles to do this, etc.

If a keto diet isn't something you are doing, why would you throw out mountains of information to hop on a diet that has little to no demonstrative performance benefits and guess your way through to your goal? That doesn't make sense to me.


This makes sense. Research shows carbohydrates have an effect on protein usage in the body. No carbs, less protein is sucked into the muscles.

The question should then become, does this reduced ability to use protein effect hypertrophy? I think that just that is happening in the above studies. But more research is needed.

Although to be fair, many "keto guys" insist that any keto research that doesn't involve a minimum of 6 months of keto dieting should be thrown out as the participants were not fully keto adapted.

Unfortunately, as you stated earlier, compliance so difficult that getting a random group of people and having half of them comply for 6 months is near impossible, which effectively makes human research into "true keto adapted" near impossible.

Yes, as shown in the study keto seems to improve blood lipid profiles.

Although I think you are strongly under valuing LDL measurements and their correlations with cardiovascular risk. This is far outside what I've looked into but in Strong Medicine Dr Chris Hardy gives a very plausible mechanistic operation for types of LDL increasing CVD risk.

TL;DR: There are a lot of studies showing that keto is great for groups to lose weight and maintain and even gain strength, but the non keto groups increase lean body mass. there are also studies showing insulin's relation with hypertrophy. Ergo, carbs seem to be more optimal for increasing LBM.
Any idea what % of the diet was carbs in regards to helping LBM?
 
In the "big" study above they equated protein intake and keto group was less than 5% carbs and the "WD" group was 55% carbs. (according to the chart they ate around 43g carbs on the keto diet and 488g on the WD)

But the recommendation that I've seen as a "minimum" in context of strength, power, and hyptertrophy performance is around1g per lb bodyweight. (The RP diet 2.0 is where I got this number from. Generally their strategy is to determine protein intake first, then carbs, then fill in with fat macros every thing else. Assuming that a minimum fat threshold has been hit for health reasons.) That approach is similar to what I've seen other recommendations from places like Precision Nutrition.

That said the RP diet is VERY performance biased (meaning everything is in the lense of optimizing your sport specific demands from like bodybuilding, powerlifting, etc utilizing nutrition).

I'm sure is very possible to gain muscle with much less carbs (even zero) than that, but like was mentioned above, you may have to go into different types of hypertrophy protocols that work around the limitations on glycogen the lower you get in order to add enough volume. I couldn't find any published studies focusing on that approach. All the keto bodybuilders I found used traditional lifting parameters and reduced weekly volume compared to similar carb fueled bodybuilders. (interesting resource and discussion on that topic here: Keto for muscle growth? Debate vs. Mike Israetel)
 
I've been eating roughly the same foods for about a month now in an attempt to bulk but my weight is continuing to hover just around 183lbs.

When I first started this I shot up from 170 to 180 within about two weeks and I got MASSIVE strength gains (I'm a rookie in the gym and this was after a short cut) then it just stopped there. Any tips on how I can improve?

One photo below is what a typical day looks like in the gym then the other is my usual eating habits. That all comes to around 3100 calories. Sometimes I'll eat more than that in the form of rice crisps or something of the like.

View attachment 13838

View attachment 13837

@JustWeaver you need to increase your calories if you’re not gaining weight. Try a couple of heavy mass gainer shakes per day in exchange for the 200cal shakes you are taking, that will add about 1000cal straight off the bat.

I would also simplify both your diet and your training.

1. Diet - More eggs, more meat.

2. Training - More compound lifts. There are a few programmes that I know work, Faleevs 5x5 worked for me. Russian Bear from Pavels PTTP and Dan John’s Mass Made Simple will also work well.

If you really want to bulk don’t focus on the Frankenstein look.. A very rough paraphrase from PTTP would be that you end up looking like ‘a collection of body parts’.

Go with the a simple programme, eat more, compounds lifts, eat more, be consistent and ......eat more!
 
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