Nutrition Nutrition for Fat-Skinny People Who Want Visible Abs

[Benjamin_K]

I rarely read people discussing the difficulty in gaining weight/muscle for the naturally skinny-fat person. Most nutrition advice seems focused on dropping weight, whereas I have the exact opposite problem. For all of my 20s I weighed around 150, and despite having low body fat, did not have abs. I'm 5'9 with long limbs and looked (and was) skinny. After doing tons of research I decided to get strong, really this time, for real strong. And as of this posting, after a hard 8 months (I'm now 31), I weight about 170— which is HUGE to me. My strength numbers are solid, and my GPP work (S&S) good as well. I have gained a bit of fat, though not much, but definitely don't have visible abs.

So my goals are: 1) Look close to Delvaux's Hercules.
2) Get strong in bent press and other esoteric (to me) presses.

Going forward I have two questions.

1) Would it be appropriate for me to post before and after pictures here so as to show my progress? By "here" I mean in this, or another part, of the forum. I've been using Reload and S&S, and before Reload I was using other Eastern Bloc training plans; my progress is indicative of those plans.

2) What would be a good way for me to drop the fat without losing my muscle I've gained? I'm legit ANXIOUS about cutting any foods because I don't want to wither away to 150s again. This anxiety has caused me to research for hours daily the diets of old strongmen (since that was pre-roids) to see what they ate, and was is actually possible natural.

Current foods eaten: lactose free milk, peanut butter, honey, protein powder, eggs, sausage, rice, oatmeal, red meat, and some spinach. My stomach does not tolerate high amounts of fiber, gluten, or much dairy. I drink fruit juice. And probably intake too much sugar. I read almost everywhere that I need to eat more fat in order to lose fat. If someone can help me understand this, that would also be greatly appreciated.

Sorry if this sounds rambling.

All responses greatly appreciated.

 

[Marc]

Posting/taking pictures is a good way to monitor your progress. Go for it!

For the nutrition part:
An important factor is to keep training for strength and in fact chase strength improvements i.e. keep on getting stronger.
Knowing how many calories you need to maintain your weight would be a good thing. Do you know that number?
That's not to say that you cannot lose weight without counting calories/macros but doing so will get you results faster and more reliable.
In your situation I'd start at maintenance calories and go from there i.e. if you don't lose fat over a period longer than 2 weeks, cut calories by 200. Aim for a rather conservative weight loss, ~1% of bw per week.
As far as fat is concerned: you should aim for a balanced diet of 20-40% of calories coming from fat, that's the whole "magic".
Fruit juice is really not that great, rather have real fruit. But if you like it there is no reason to not include it into your calories. The same goes for any food. If you don't have an allergy/intolerance to a certain food it makes absoluty no sense to avoid any food for some BS reasons (i.e. all those claims of "detox", "anti-acidification", "primal" any other BS really need to die, preferably yesterday).

Just eat a balanced diet:
-1.5 - 2g of protein per kg of bw
-20-40% if calories from far
-rest of calories from carbs

Get in some ~30-60g of fibre per day and have a wide variety of veggies and fruit (don't bother counting starch free veggies towards your calories).

 

[Benjamin_K]

Posting/taking pictures is a good way to monitor your progress. Go for it!

For the nutrition part:
An important factor is to keep training for strength and in fact chase strength improvements i.e. keep on getting stronger.
Knowing how many calories you need to maintain your weight would be a good thing. Do you know that number?
That's not to say that you cannot lose weight without counting calories/macros but doing so will get you results faster and more reliable.
In your situation I'd start at maintenance calories and go from there i.e. if you don't lose fat over a period longer than 2 weeks, cut calories by 200. Aim for a rather conservative weight loss, ~1% of bw per week.
As far as fat is concerned: you should aim for a balanced diet of 20-40% of calories coming from fat, that's the whole "magic".
Fruit juice is really not that great, rather have real fruit. But if you like it there is no reason to not include it into your calories. The same goes for any food. If you don't have an allergy/intolerance to a certain food it makes absoluty no sense to avoid any food for some BS reasons (i.e. all those claims of "detox", "anti-acidification", "primal" any other BS really need to die, preferably yesterday).

Just eat a balanced diet:
-1.5 - 2g of protein per kg of bw
-20-40% if calories from far
-rest of calories from carbs

Get in some ~30-60g of fibre per day and have a wide variety of veggies and fruit (don't bother counting starch free veggies towards your calories).

Really appreciate the detailed response! I do not know the maintenance number for my calories needed. But I have been eating pretty close to the macros you listed. And yeah, I definitely fell for paleo at one time, keto at another, etc etc. Never helped. Now I just eat normal food (except the fruit juice). And I can definitely try to give it up, it's just so easy to get carbs that way.

Should I be concerned with losing a lot of strength when trying to lower body fat?
Current numbers as of last PR: Squat 315, DL 335, Bench 235, OHP ? I guarantee I'm higher on all those lifts as of right now.

I will get pictures up this week

 

[Marc]

Yes, ditching those fads is the best thing one could do (rant: the term "paleo" is totally useless. "Paleo" at which time/place? Also, almost all foods you can buy in a typical western country are the result of selected breeding which only took place once agriculture was established).

Ideally you'd know your maintenance from personal experience. If you don't, the Harris-Benedict or Mifflin-St. Jeor-Formulas give out a pretty good value (Harris Benedict slightly higher).
From there you substract 10-20%. I'd say start with 10 if you're not in a hurry.

You can def keep your strength and even get stronger during deficits especially if you're not too aggressive (both training-wise and nutrition-wise).

 

[Kaisersemmel]

I did the typical machine-BB-training with BB-style eating in my teens and early 20s and got pretty good results with that. But gaining muscle mass takes a long time. Gaining 20lbs in 8 months is fine. But unless you were completely untrained when you started, only a fraction of this will be additional muscle mass after a cut.

Some quick math: In the past I had to get down to single digit BF-% to have clearly defined abs. Assuming you started at 15%BF at 150lbs and managed to gain an incredible 10lbs of lean mass in those 8 months you would be sitting at 19% BF with 137lb of lean BW. Lowering you BF% by 10 without losing any lean mass would put your body weight at single-digit BF% back at 150lbs or under.

My inner former Gym-Bro would recommend to alternate between mild cuts and bulks that last roughly 3-4 months each. On the cut you bump up the cardio and loose 1lbs or 1/2kg of BW per week and don't worry about how much weight you can lift. During the bulk you focus on lifting only while you gain 1lbs or 1/2kg of BW per week. Try to bounce around a BF-% that you can live with because staying really lean makes training really hard.

The diet I used was kinda boring as well. 1g of animal protein per lbs of BW, 1 bag of mixed frozen veggies (1kg/2.2lbs) and adjust carbs to meet your weight goal. I tried to keep the fat down but I am sure you could do pretty well on a high fat, low-carb diet as well. On low carb you will probably loose a bunch of water weight as well.

I am sure other people here have much more knowledge about this. But at the gym I trained most people followed a similar plan and did pretty well. But all the really big and strong ripped guys took anabolics

 

[Benjamin_K]

Yes, ditching those fads is the best thing one could do (rant: the term "paleo" is totally useless. "Paleo" at which time/place? Also, almost all foods you can buy in a typical western country are the result of selected breeding which only took place once agriculture was established).

Ideally you'd know your maintenance from personal experience. If you don't, the Harris-Benedict or Mifflin-St. Jeor-Formulas give out a pretty good value (Harris Benedict slightly higher).
From there you substract 10-20%. I'd say start with 10 if you're not in a hurry.

You can def keep your strength and even get stronger during deficits especially if you're not too aggressive (both training-wise and nutrition-wise).

Agreed about the marketing terms. Pretty silly stuff. I *think* I can figure out my maintenance, roughly anyway, based off the foods I've been eating and my proportions. Will get back to you on that. And I've never heard of Harris-Benedict and Jeor-Formua, will look up ASAP. And, yeah, I'm in no rush (except the summer is coming to TN soon...

 

[Benjamin_K]

Okay. Here are the photos. The one with shorts and my back are "Before" photos, taken roughly 8 months ago. The last one, with pants, is current. This thing only lets me add three photos at once so my next photo will be of my back currently too.

 

[Benjamin_K]

I did the typical machine-BB-training with BB-style eating in my teens and early 20s and got pretty good results with that. But gaining muscle mass takes a long time. Gaining 20lbs in 8 months is fine. But unless you were completely untrained when you started, only a fraction of this will be additional muscle mass after a cut.

Some quick math: In the past I had to get down to single digit BF-% to have clearly defined abs. Assuming you started at 15%BF at 150lbs and managed to gain an incredible 10lbs of lean mass in those 8 months you would be sitting at 19% BF with 137lb of lean BW. Lowering you BF% by 10 without losing any lean mass would put your body weight at single-digit BF% back at 150lbs or under.

My inner former Gym-Bro would recommend to alternate between mild cuts and bulks that last roughly 3-4 months each. On the cut you bump up the cardio and loose 1lbs or 1/2kg of BW per week and don't worry about how much weight you can lift. During the bulk you focus on lifting only while you gain 1lbs or 1/2kg of BW per week. Try to bounce around a BF-% that you can live with because staying really lean makes training really hard.

The diet I used was kinda boring as well. 1g of animal protein per lbs of BW, 1 bag of mixed frozen veggies (1kg/2.2lbs) and adjust carbs to meet your weight goal. I tried to keep the fat down but I am sure you could do pretty well on a high fat, low-carb diet as well. On low carb you will probably loose a bunch of water weight as well.

I am sure other people here have much more knowledge about this. But at the gym I trained most people followed a similar plan and did pretty well. But all the really big and strong ripped guys took anabolics

Dude that math is super helpful, thanks! I was wondering myself how much muscle I had likely gained. It's tough for me to tell sometimes. And I've been in single digit BF during my high school wrestling years and while I was in the Navy, still no abs. But I never trained them. These days I'm doing dragonflags and hanging leg raises to target them specifically, while also doing proper bracing, etc.

And yeah, so many huge dudes at my gym, looks suspiciously like they are on something. They respect my squat depth though, so there is that.

I like the idea of bouncing back and forth between cut and mass until I get closer to what I want. Am going to start recording food more seriously now.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I don't associate eastern bloc or reload with hypertrophy. Any program that targets relative strength (increase strength and maintained/decreased bodyweight), that is desired in weight class sports, wouldn't be my first choice for mass gainz regardless of diet. Body part splits work and are my go-to for any aesthetic goal.

If you want mass, train for it. If you want fat loss, train for it. If you want both, rotate them. In my experience, doing both at the same time takes longer than doing them separately and both ways still take much longer than one might think.

I'm finding that I don't need to count calories if I:

1. Train hard
2. Limit carbohydrates to after training only
3. Drink more water
4. Walk more

And yeah, so many huge dudes at my gym, looks suspiciously like they are on something.

Or they've just been at it a very long time. I don't think PEDs are as prolific as simple dedication and patience.

I'm in no rush (except the summer is coming to TN soon...

Try to think a few summers out and you'll be more satisfied.

 

[Marc]

@Benjamin_K you're in a very good starting point and I def would not consider you skinny-fat at all.
Just start with a 10% deficit and I am pretty sure you will already see some decent progress in ~4 weeks.
For the formulas just google these.

 

[Benjamin_K]

I don't associate eastern bloc or reload with hypertrophy. Any program that targets relative strength (increase strength and maintained/decreased bodyweight), that is desired in weight class sports, wouldn't be my first choice for mass gainz regardless of diet. Body part splits work and are my go-to for any aesthetic goal.

If you want mass, train for it. If you want fat loss, train for it. If you want both, rotate them. In my experience, doing both at the same time takes longer than doing them separately and both ways still take much longer than one might think.

I'm finding that I don't need to count calories if I:

1. Train hard
2. Limit carbohydrates to after training only
3. Drink more water
4. Walk more

Or they've just been at it a very long time. I don't think PEDs are as prolific as simple dedication and patience.

Try to think a few summers out and you'll be more satisfied.

I wanted to get strong first since that was the one thing I had not done. I had used a lot of different splits in the past, WS4SB, Arnold's stuff, and bro splits during Navy years. Dude, I even followed the late Greg Plitt's routines. I just did not gain off those. Then I humbled myself and did Starting Strength, then moved into Eastern Bloc methods and I'm noticeably (by all the people who know me) much bigger. And way, way stronger. I honestly believe that being skinny-fat requires strength first, and not just high volume. My body composition legit never changed otherwise. YMMV of course.

I don't drink enough water.

I can tell the difference between PEDS and non-PEDS *MOST* of the time. Not always. I'm not brand new to the lifting fitness world, just skinny.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Benjamin_K]

@Marc Sweet. Will do! And thanks for the encouragement! I did do my average macro calculations ( I eat almost the same thing every day). Here are the numbers 310 carb/ 217 protein/ 105 fat. Carbs are sometimes higher when I graze on fruits. Like I told @Bro Mo I definitely don't drink enough water. Trying to get better at that.

Side note: after Reload, in order to facilitate fat loss and body composition, I was thinking of doing ROP or something from Beyond Bodybuilding. Want bigger shoulders then what I have currently in order, and want to be better at various presses/feats of strength.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I wanted to get strong first since that was the one thing I had not done. I had used a lot of different splits in the past, WS4SB, Arnold's stuff, and bro splits during Navy years. Dude, I even followed the late Greg Plitt's routines. I just did not gain off those.

My favorite powerbuilding split inspired from Marty Gallagher that is more strength oriented has been:

Monday (Pull)

Deadlift up to the days 5RM
Deadlift 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
Weighted Pull-Up up to the days 5RM
Weighted Pull-Up 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
5x 60sec:60sec high intensity intervals of whatever​

Tuesday (Press)

Bench Press up to the days 5RM
Bench Press 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
Weighted Dip up to the days 5RM
Weighted Dip 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
5x 20:40 high intensity intervals of whatever​

Wednesday (Squat)

Squat up to the days 5RM
Squat 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
Ab Roller 3x8
Long Run/Ruck/Swim​

Thursday (Pull)

Power Clean up to the days 5RM
Power Clean 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
Curl up to the days 5RM
Curl 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
5x 60sec:60sec high intensity intervals of whatever​

Friday (Press)

Military Press up to the days 5RM
Military Press 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
Skull Crusher up to the days 5RM
Skull Crusher 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
5x 20:40 high intensity intervals of whatever​

I got significantly stronger and leaned out at the same time. I had to eat a ton and deload every 4th week. I consider this a peaking program for selection(s).

 

[Kaisersemmel]

I think you did a great job with that 20lbs weight gain. Still looks very solid! If you are worried about shoulders I would recommend side and rear delt raises. Ok, ok, I will stop being a gym bro now

 

[Benjamin_K]

My favorite powerbuilding split inspired from Marty Gallagher that is more strength oriented has been:

Monday (Pull)

Deadlift up to the days 5RM
Deadlift 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
Weighted Pull-Up up to the days 5RM
Weighted Pull-Up 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
5x 60sec:60sec high intensity intervals of whatever​

Tuesday (Press)

Bench Press up to the days 5RM
Bench Press 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
Weighted Dip up to the days 5RM
Weighted Dip 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
5x 20:40 high intensity intervals of whatever​

Wednesday (Squat)

Squat up to the days 5RM
Squat 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
Ab Roller 3x8
Long Run/Ruck/Swim​

Thursday (Pull)

Power Clean up to the days 5RM
Power Clean 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
Curl up to the days 5RM
Curl 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
5x 60sec:60sec high intensity intervals of whatever​

Friday (Press)

Military Press up to the days 5RM
Military Press 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
Skull Crusher up to the days 5RM
Skull Crusher 3x8 @ 75% of 5RM
5x 20:40 high intensity intervals of whatever​

I got significantly stronger and leaned out at the same time. I had to eat a ton and deload every 4th week. I consider this a peaking program for selection(s).

What does "X" up to the days mean? Just build up to a 5 RM? I only found out who Marty was recently by his interview with Rip. Super cool guy.

 

[Benjamin_K]

I think you did a great job with that 20lbs weight gain. Still looks very solid! If you are worried about shoulders I would recommend side and rear delt raises. Ok, ok, I will stop being a gym bro now

Thanks, man! Really appreciate it I'll see where they are at after finishing Reload. Kind of want to get a strong bent press.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

What does "X" up to the days mean? Just build up to a 5 RM?

Yes. RM will fluctuate based on the day/week and regulate based on feel.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I got great results using basically this:
The Best Damn Workout Plan For Natural Lifters | T Nation

But doing more of a 6 day split -
chest / bi
legs / tri
back / shoulders

abs every day to finish

But the set and loading structure pretty much the same. Put on a lot of lean mass and improved strength considerably. This on a low fat high protein diet. Plenty of carbs, but mostly fruit and veg.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Assuming you started at 15%BF at 150lbs and managed to gain an incredible 10lbs of lean mass in those 8 months you would be sitting at 19% BF with 137lb of lean BW.

Math Correction

Gaining 10 lbs of all muscle would mean your body weight would be 160 lbs.

Yes, that would mean your lean muscle mass would be 137.

However, your body fat percentage would be 14% rather than 19%.

My inner former Gym-Bro would recommend to alternate between mild cuts and bulks that last roughly 3-4 months each. On the cut you bump up the cardio and loose 1lbs or 1/2kg of BW per week and don't worry about how much weight you can lift. During the bulk you focus on lifting only while you gain 1lbs or 1/2kg of BW per week. Try to bounce around a BF-% that you can live with because staying really lean makes training really hard.

Calorie Rotation

Some type of calorie rotation is the most effective for gaining and/or losing weight. Bodybuilder have used this protocol for decades, proving it works.

Intermittent energy restriction improves weight loss efficiency in obese men: the MATADOR study. - PubMed - NCBI

Recent research demonstrated that rotating calories every two week preserved muscle mass while decreasing body fat. The research found that the body will adjust to your caloric intake in approximately two weeks.

Once adaptation occurs (The General Adaptation Syndrome) progress stops.

Exercise For Caloric Expenditure

Exercise helps a little with burning calories/fat but not to the extent most believe.

Two of Exercise main benefits are that it preserves muscle mass and increase Insulin Sensitivity.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Knowing how many calories you need to maintain your weight would be a good thing. Do you know that number?[/QUOTE}

Know Your Numbers

Anyone who's serious need to know how many calories they are consuming. To do that you need a...

Three Day Recall

Count all the calories you consume in three days, then divide by three to see what you average daily caloric intake is.

One of those days need to be a weekend; your eating habits change on your days off.

..if you don't lose fat over a period longer than 2 weeks, cut calories by 200. Aim for a rather conservative weight loss, ~1% of bw per week.

20% Calorie Deficit

Research by Dr Layne Norton and Dr John Ivy, independent of each other, determined decreasing caloric intake around 20% is the most effective at preserving muscle mass and maximizing fat loss.

As Marc stated, a conservative weight loss is one of the keys.

Get in some ~30-60g of fibre per day ...

Fibre

I am a proponent of getting some fibre. However, the emphasis on high fibre is over rated.

Dr Paul Mason's presented some interesting research that counted the dogma on high fibre intake.

Kenny Croxdale