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Off-Topic Older Athletes: Anyone Use TRT or Peptides?

A doctor, like a prescription, doesn't make something good or bad. The test is whether testosterone supplementation improves your functioning. For most people that's because their testosterone is low and they feel better when their testosterone is higher but what's low and what's high depends on their presentation and expectations. If you go to a TRT clinic they will vary dosages over time and take multiple bloodwork to manipulate your hormonal levels into quite precise ranges but some other people just start at a low dosage and increase it until they feel better, then keep it there. It just depends on why you're taking it in the first place, what avenue you pursued to access it (which is often jurisdiction dependent) and what your objective is. Your comment about shaving a few years off someone's life is equating testosterone, a perfectly natural substance, to a toxin. We're all on testosterone! We're all on estrogen! We're all on vitamin D! The amount each of us is on is different. And anything in excess can kill you.
I mostly agree.
But talking to a medial professional has benefits. The first and probably most important one is that they will tell you the risks of non-risk-free treatments such as TRT. Going by feel probably isn't the best way in terms of long term healthspan.

I'm not following your statement about natural substances and toxicity. But I very much agree with your last sentence.
 
I mostly agree.
But talking to a medial professional has benefits. The first and probably most important one is that they will tell you the risks of non-risk-free treatments such as TRT. Going by feel probably isn't the best way in terms of long term healthspan.

I'm not following your statement about natural substances and toxicity. But I very much agree with your last sentence.
Each of us has a "natural" testosterone level and this level varies significantly over our lifetime and between individuals. Having higher testosterone than someone else is not in and of itself a health issue and having higher testosterone than nature provides is also not in and of itself a health issue. But if taken to excess, like anything, testosterone supplementation can cause health problems. That's my point. If we can take testosterone and be healthy and not take testosterone and be unhealthy then I don't think demonising testosterone really gets us anywhere
 
Keep hearing Dave talking about this (it's the show sponsor so). They seems like having TRT and related blood work. Hope that it's helpful to someone
 
Are you asking about whether or not age-related decline actually should/need to be addressed?
Rather why some people experience age-related decline at all. I have no symptoms of such a thing. Has mine gone down and it doesn’t bother me? Has mine not gone down? If it’s gone down, why don’t I have symptoms? The whole thing is mysterious to me.

Similarly, I read about age-related loss of strength and muscle but haven’t experienced that, either.

-S-
 
Rather why some people experience age-related decline at all. I have no symptoms of such a thing. Has mine gone down and it doesn’t bother me? Has mine not gone down? If it’s gone down, why don’t I have symptoms? The whole thing is mysterious to me.

Similarly, I read about age-related loss of strength and muscle but haven’t experienced that, either.

-S-
As usual my grasp of cell stuff is fuzzy at best... I think it has been referred to as both "male menopause" and "late onset hypogonadism." Basically the cells in the testis that produce testosterone start dying off and those that don't die off stop responding well to a hormone that tells them to produce testosterone. Why that (or menopause) happens as humans age I have no idea.
 
I personally would not put Peptides and SARMS/AAS in the same bucket.

End state is aging is a disease, to go into the details would take hundreds of pages, if you are interested read: Why We Age and Why We Don't Have To by David Sinclair, he is one of the leading geneticists in the world.
Peptides, by and large, are simply replacing lost physiological function. They work on longevity and are not really performance enhancing, like AAS. Their effects are not strong enough to really give someone a competitive athletic edge unless you are talking between 40+ year olds.

I do always chuckle though about the stigma with what we call PEDs. I understand the issue surrounding people's honesty etc., but to cite all the cataclysmic health effects, makes me chuckle. Yes, there are an extreme few who abuse it and kill themselves, but as a whole even if all PEDs were 100% legal I would argue it would have a fraction of the effect on society as, let's say alcohol does.
Alcohol is a mind altering DRUG that has devastating effects on culture, yet we laugh and joke about its consumption as a culture. I have never heard of anyone on PEDs kill an entire family, because they had too much. Or a family terrorized and abused by a parent/s who were hopelessly addicted to PEDs. Alcohol costs us more im society regarding health and mental issues then PEDs ever would.
Or let's talk junk food. Heart disease is the #1 killer in the country (US), by and large attributed to poor diet and lifestyle choices. The medical costs are in the billions, far more devastating than PEDs.

Let me set the record. I don't care if people consume alcohol in excess or eat themselves to death, though I find those lifestyle choices repulsive, and I don't care if a 40+ yo man/woman takes whatever they need to enhance quality of life.

My point is, stop the hypocrisy and call a spade a spade.

I'm not connecting what you wrote with what you quoted me saying?
 
Rather why some people experience age-related decline at all. I have no symptoms of such a thing. Has mine gone down and it doesn’t bother me? Has mine not gone down? If it’s gone down, why don’t I have symptoms? The whole thing is mysterious to me.

Similarly, I read about age-related loss of strength and muscle but haven’t experienced that, either.

-S-

At what age did you start resistance training?

And how do your lifts now compare to in the past?

Via my own records, I am empirically definitely not as strong as I was 15 years ago.

(which is pretty normal)
 
Rather why some people experience age-related decline at all. I have no symptoms of such a thing. Has mine gone down and it doesn’t bother me? Has mine not gone down? If it’s gone down, why don’t I have symptoms? The whole thing is mysterious to me.

Similarly, I read about age-related loss of strength and muscle but haven’t experienced that, either.

-S-
Correct me if I’m wrong Steve, but didn’t you start weight training in your mid 40’s?
I think if you started training in your 20’s with the knowledge you have now, you’d probably notice at least a decline in strength if not muscle.
Just assuming, but I’m sure in your weight class the open age records for your lifts would be higher.
Now guessing, I think if you started training in your 20’s a lot of those open age records would probably be yours.
Edit: it would’ve be interesting to see your testosterone levels in your early 40’s compared to your levels in your 50’s or even now. Wouldn’t be surprised if they are higher later in life due to your training & other lifestyle choices.
 
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I am 70 and way stronger than I was 15 years ago. I actually haven't trained since 1984. In 2019 I started training and within 8 months had two massive heart attacks on January 9th, 2020. It wasn't until August 2021 I could start training again. I started out barely able to get one squat rep with 135. I can now squat 410. I am not slowing down or stopping. It isn't easy but you don't need to take stuff to get strong. I take no supplements but eat natural unprocessed food.
 
I am 70 and way stronger than I was 15 years ago. I actually haven't trained since 1984. In 2019 I started training and within 8 months had two massive heart attacks on January 9th, 2020. It wasn't until August 2021 I could start training again. I started out barely able to get one squat rep with 135. I can now squat 410. I am not slowing down or stopping. It isn't easy but you don't need to take stuff to get strong. I take no supplements but eat natural unprocessed food.

If you were detrained from 1984 to 2019 (35 year hiatus), that's a very very different situation from someone who was training more or less continuously from their 20's to their 50's or later.

You're comparing a trained version of you now versus a completely untrained version 15 years ago.

I've never gone more than 6 months without lifting for about 30 years.

My strength peaked in my late 30s / early 40s.
 
My lifetime C&J is 138 kg.

If I could do that now in my age and weight bracket, I'd be contender for gold at the Pan American games.
 
I wouldn't equate performance loss with testosterone loss. There's much more to decline with age than just testosterone. But it matters, of course.

I think the search for "optimal" levels can be revealing. People want to have their level high. But it seems it's often just for the sake of having it high. People can be symptomless with the level right by the bottom range. And it's practically never enough to get one just in range when on TRT, people always want to test high. Why?

When it comes to performance, I understand exogenous testosterone always kicks more than natural one with the same levels. So in a sense it is typically always a PED.

I don't have anything against people using TRT, or using testosterone without needing therapy per se. It's a personal choice that minimally affects others. However, I would hope that everyone is clear about their reasoning, especially for themselves.
 
Personal perspective, I didn’t get a blood test until I was in my early 40’s, the doctor prescribed it due to a medical issue I was having. My test levels were very low, even though I had no symptoms of low testosterone this worried me. I researched ways to boost it naturally & implemented as many things as I could. I managed to raise my test levels a bit, but it’s still barely scraping into the low range for my age bracket.
In saying that, I’m 6ft tall & currently weigh 96 kg well muscled with relative low body fat. I work a 10/11 hr days driving garbage truck & still have energy to train 6/7 days a week plus usual household chores. My libido is just as annoying to my lovely partner as it was 20yrs ago.
So I think the takeaway I got was to worry less about my testosterone levels & pay more attention to how I’m handling life. If everything’s lining up ok then who cares what your testosterone levels are.
 
I understand the issue surrounding people's honesty etc.

That's the big issue for me. Plenty of people do things I choose not to do, but even on an amateur level, if we're competing, and the rules are that you're not supposed to do some of those things without telling everyone, then I'm upset.

Some powerlifting federations have elected to become completely drug-free while others maintain separate divisions. I first encountered this at a "professional" division meet - the meet's federation had chosen to name their two divisions "professional" and "amateur." Those words just meant "not tested for drugs" and "tested for drugs", respectively, and the euphemisms bothered me. I now compete in the USPA and the divisions are named for exactly what they are - you look on the event calendar and you know that any meet with no words between "USPA" and the name of the meet means it's not tested because every drug-tested meet's listing begins with "USPA DRUG TESTED." That's honest, it lets people make the choice for themselves, and at the end of the day, I'm a big believer in both those two things: let's be honest about what we're taking and not taking, and let's allow both. (FWIW, when a non-tested meet is on the calendar and the location and date suits me, I participate in non-tested meets because if I'm looking for a new personal best, it doesn't matter what everyone else is doing.)

It is striking how many people are comparing PEDs with TRT.

I think that's only because they're both banned substances in drug-tested sports competition, and sports is big business that gets a lot of publicity. People needn't read more into it than that - they do, but they needn't.

Kinda seems like something to discuss with a doctor.

Absolutely, but some drugs that are now OTC (over the counter) used to be available only by doctor's prescription. This - talk to the doctor first or not - can be a blurry line as far as self-medication goes.

Are you asking about whether or not age-related decline actually should/need to be addressed?

That's a very good question, @John K, and no, it's not what I'm asking. The crux of the matter is why age-related decline shouldn't be considered normal - there's nothing wrong with aging like, well, like you're aging. It happens to all of us, it's certainly happening to me, but I expect it and I don't consider it a bad thing (my rantings aside about not being willing to accept getting older meaning I'll get weaker).

I try to improve what I can while accepting - gracefully, I hope - what I can't. And perhaps my profession as a musician and music teacher has influenced me in this way, but I'm still practicing and I'm still getting better. The right kind of practice - mindful, diligent, open to the ideas of others while realizing that ultimately one is personally responsible for one's own progress - can yield improvements at almost anything at almost any age, I feel.

As usual my grasp of cell stuff is fuzzy at best... I think it has been referred to as both "male menopause" and "late onset hypogonadism." Basically the cells in the testis that produce testosterone start dying off and those that don't die off stop responding well to a hormone that tells them to produce testosterone. Why that (or menopause) happens as humans age I have no idea.

I don't think the comparison with menopause works except on a very general level. Menopause isn unavoidable and there is no doubt about what's happening when it's happening. The things we're talking about for men are much more vague. Aging is aging, but I don't think lower T levels are rightly equated with what happens to a woman's body in menopause. Just my opinion, of course.

At what age did you start resistance training?

And how do your lifts now compare to in the past?

Via my own records, I am empirically definitely not as strong as I was 15 years ago.

(which is pretty normal)

Mid 40's.

My lifts continue to go up, and the ones I don't train as seriously are still very close to what they were 20 years ago and I know I could break those old PR's if I wanted to.

Correct me if I’m wrong Steve, but didn’t you start weight training in your mid 40’s?

Yes. My first meets are a few months after my 49th birthday in 2004.

I think if you started training in your 20’s a lot of those open age records would probably be yours.

I don't think so. I don't see myself as particularly good at lifting weights, and I think my "success" lies largely in simply being willing to do what most at my age aren't willing to.

Edit: it would’ve be interesting to see your testosterone levels in your early 40’s compared to your levels in your 50’s or even now.

It might have been interesting, but there are a lot of things that, in hindsight, might have been interesting.

Wouldn’t be surprised if they [T levels] are higher later in life due to your training & other lifestyle choices.

To your second point, I repeat what I said earlier, which is that so far as I can tell, I don't have symptoms related to this 'age-related decline'.

That's not to say I don't see changes. I can't/don't eat nearly the quantity of food I used to, but the other side of that is that I've realized I needed to eat both better and less. That I eat better is something I feel certain helps me. I think, as an amateur endurance athlete in my 20's, 30's, and early-mid 40's, I overtrained chronically and my performance and my life in general suffered as a result. So I don't do that now and that's improved my life. Some things I can't do much about, e.g., my skin is much drier - I never had to lick the end of my finger to turn a page in a piece of music or a book, but now I do. My hair, admittedly nothing to complain about at my age, isn't what it used to be, either - my hairline is slowly receding and my hair is thinner than it used to be.

I just don't get the whole idea of looking at getting older as getting weaker, either in the physical sense or in a broader sense. Of course things change, and I suppose if you aren't trying to get better at things, then the overall effect is a gradual worsening. But I know I have so many areas in which I can improve; they're areas in which I always could have improved but didn't particularly feel the need to when I was younger, and now that I'm not so young any more, I focus more on them. I am, much as I do in my lifting training, working on improving my weaknesses in every aspect of my life where I see something I want to and am able to improve. Net result? Not decline for me. I'm better in every way I'm able to understand about myself than I was when I was younger - no doubt I have my blind spots and I haven't improved or have gotten worse at some of those, but I'm doing my best. End of rant. :)

In saying that, I’m 6ft tall & currently weigh 96 kg well muscled with relative low body fat. I work a 10/11 hr days driving garbage truck & still have energy to train 6/7 days a week plus usual household chores. My libido is just as annoying to my lovely partner as it was 20yrs ago.
So I think the takeaway I got was to worry less about my testosterone levels & pay more attention to how I’m handling life. If everything’s lining up ok then who cares what your testosterone levels are.

Exactly! Well said, and thank you. I could have skipped my rant and just said, "What you just said goes double for me." The particulars are different, but the attitude is the same. (Although the altitude is different as I'm half a foot shorter. :) )

-S-
 
It is striking how many people are comparing PEDs with TRT.

Its like someone asking "Hey, anyone ever take Robitussin for a cold?" and getting responses talking about robotripping.
DXM, the active ingredient in Robitussin, is actually also used as a prescription drug to treat depression, which offers me an opportunity for a much better analogy. So it is more like there was a number of psychiatrists specializing exclusively in prescribing it to anyone who can say "I'm feeling kinda sad" without seeing the "patient" in person or suggesting any alternative treatment, such as psychotherapy or different pharmaceuticals; to the point when their practices would be known just as "DXM clinics".

These DXM clinics would of course have marketing campaigns where robotripping, called "dissociative pharmacological psychotherapy", would be promoted as a surefire solution to any problem a person might have. And then the DPP people would look down on regular robotrippers and steadfastly refuse any possible connection between that practice and their prescription highs.

Even in this thread many people advocating TRT can't stop themselves from describing is exactly as it was a performance enhancing drug (if not actually a recreational drug). The many allusions to restored/enhanced "virility" and such certainly didn't help convince me that it isn't commonly seen as a elixir of masculinity instead of a pharmaceutical drug.

A lot of discussion will get bogged down in the philosophical question of what exactly a baseline of health is. For example, most people would agree that having a cold is a deviation from optimal state, hence acceptance of drug use to correct that problem. Most people would also agree that not being able to deadlift 500 kg is not actually a disorder, hence drugs taken to correct that problem would be seen as PEDs rather that pharmaceutical ones. Where do the conditions that TRT supposedly cures lay on that spectrum? How real they even are in the first place ("low virility" isn't described in ICD, I assume)?

That said, I have no problems with people trying to artificially enhance themselves. Just don't lie about it. (The real problem is doctors lending their authority to the lie, which drives more and more people to it who would've never taken PEDs honestly described as such. But if a person in a white coat gives it to you, must be ok, right?)
 
I'm not connecting what you wrote with what you quoted me saying?

Understood. Some viewpoints make sense only in my own head. I was initially referring to your alternative viewpoint with my peptide statement, then went on a rant about other things in general.

I believe peptides one day will be mainstream. They will be used to maintain and restore functions that are degrading or have been lost. I also believe pharmaceutical companies will fight this tooth and nail because by and large people will maintain health longer and not need their medications and surgeries.

There are some really good books out there covering these topics.

There are many docs now seeing the real power in peptide therapy and prescribing it for preventative and restorative health.

I personally have used TB 500 and BPC 157 to heal injuries and they worked amazingly well.

As with everything though peptides are not a magic pill and require a solid lifestyle to begin with.
 
Why don’t you reach out to a doctor or clinic in your area? A quick google search of testosterone replacement therapy will lead you in the right direction.

Andrew Huberman did a wonderful podcast with Peter Attia , where they talk about the benefits and draw backs of TRT.

If you are over 40 , your testosterone is most likely low. Ask your regular doctor to test it for you and then again do a quick search on “normal” vs. optimum levels.

Hopefully this is helpful and good luck in your training.
 
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