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How do you get stronger with the Olympic clean? Do you work on accessories movements or do you just continue doing the exercise? Thank you.
Keep in mind that because these movements are both heavy and explosive, reps are usually lower than for powerlifts.How do you get stronger with the Olympic clean? Do you work on accessories movements or do you just continue doing the exercise? Thank you.
Sounds like @Bill Been is channeling his inner Mark Rippetoe. But a powerlifting deadlift and the first pull of the clean are different. If you want your deadlift strength to carry over do your deadlifts exactly how you would do your clean.Drive your deadlift up. A man with a 500lb deadlift will ALWAYS Clean more than a man with a 250lb deadlift.
I'd love to hear:First, make sure your technique is solid.
Sounds like @Bill Been is channeling his inner Mark Rippetoe. But a powerlifting deadlift and the first pull of the clean are different. If you want your deadlift strength to carry over do your deadlifts exactly how you would do your clean.
Romanian deadlifts and good mornings are also good. Heavy pulls are good but you need to make sure that you're pulling the same as your clean.
Squats. Front and back. High bar not low bar. Squat until you're sick of squatting. Then squat some more.
You start with your hips lower. This means that the bar must be further away. As the bar leaves the floor the lifter sweeps the bar in. During the first pull the angle of the back relative to the floor must remain constant. As the bar moves past the knees the lifter rebends the knees under the bar while the torso moves to vertical. This is known as the "scoop." The lifter is now in the power position and ready for the second pull.1) how the mechanics of the first pull of a clean differs from that of a deadlift;
Because if that's the movement pattern you become used to doing it may become your "default" movement pattern. This is especially true for someone whose hips are stronger than their quads. Again, this becomes noticeable once the bar gets heavy. Your body senses that it's moving a heavy bar from the floor and it wants to default to it's strongest pulling technique which would be a powerlifting-style deadlift. This could cause the lifter to get out of the optimal position making it more difficult to reach the power position. I have actually seen this in a lifter.2) why (if it did differ which I don't grant) the strength developed in the deadlift would not apply to the clean;
See my answer to #2. There is less likelihood of picking up habits that would result in an incorrect first pull.3) why "RDL strength" would;
Because it overdevelops the hips relative to the quads, which leads to shooting the hips, which results in being out of position for the second pull.4) why low bar back squat strength would not.
@MikeTheBear you might be right about the "default mode", but I still don't buy it.Because if that's the movement pattern you become used to doing it may become your "default" movement pattern.
Yes, I am on Pendlay's side. I guess he and Ripp once trained lifters in the same gym and then had a falling out. I read an anecdote that one cold winter afternoon Pendlay's Olympic lifters were using the gym. Ripp came by and in his gruff voice said "Damn Olympic lifters are running up my heating bill" and them promptly turned the heat down.Mr. Pendlay couldn't have said it better himself. He used to do so under various identities on Rip's site.
Pendlay also has an excellent and simple teaching progression. Here are the videos for the snatch. These three videos helped me a lot with technique.In Rip's system, the bar travels in vertical lines over the base of support employing proper pulling mechanics - either to lockouts in a deadlift, or to the jumping position in a Clean. This is why they can teach noobs to do decent Cleans in about a half hour. They don't treat it like it's a blindingly complicated movement, with so much nuance, so much exquisite timing, so many positions as to be unapproachable by mere mortals.
I can only speak for myself, and as is probably obvious, I am "anti-low bar squat" for Olympic lifters. Ripp needs to put up or shut up. I have read his long article on how our weightlifters "just need to get strong," and the best way to do that is using powerlifting technique on deadlifts and squats. The problem is that he bases his recommendation on theory. Even I agree that his theory is sound, what I have noticed is that the body does not always respond how we think it should respond. The burden of proof is on Ripp to show that his ideas have merit. What I want Ripp to do is sponsor a lifter, give that lifter a training program based on Ripp's ideas, and see where that takes the lifter. If he is not willing to do that, he has not proven his case and he needs to shut up. We already have proof that the current training methods work based on the success of lifters from other countries. Of course, Ripp's response is his usual "blah blah blah genetic freaks blah blah blah steroid use." My response is why don't the coaches have these juiced up genetic freaks do low bar squats and really get them strong to blow the competition out of the water?The anti-low bar squat bias of Oly coaches has more to do with their hatred for Rippetoe because of how hard he used to slam them.
Funny, because I thought about transitioning into powerlifting and tried to adopt a powerlifting style deadlift based on technique tips from (surprise surprise) Mark Rippetoe himself (I don't hate Ripp I just don't agree with him on how Olympic lifters should be trained). I found that my clean pull is more comfortable and perhaps even a little stronger (only about 5 kg) than the pulling technique recommended by Ripp. However, I later watched a video where Ed Coan was talking about his deadlift. Even in a conventional pull he sets up with a slightly wider stance and feet pointed ever so slightly out, hips slightly lower than most conventional pullers. This allows him to better use his hip muscles. This is how I set up for my clean. He admitted that the wider stance means a wider hand position and a slightly longer pull, but the ability to better use his hips more than made up for the longer pull. Obviously Ed Coan and I are miles apart in strength and athleticism, but we have a similar build - short, stocky, with short legs. So it's not completely crazy for me to take tips from Ed on pulling.His deadlifts reflected how he pulled for the cleans
Back when Rippetoe was writing for T-Nation and they still had a section to discuss the article, I asked him this very question. He managed to avoid answering.Second point - is low bar stronger? Or just a way to make you.mechanically more efficient and lift less distance?
I once again post this video. I agree that the powerlifters here are on the extreme end of crappy squats. Nevertheless, I ask the following two questions:Second point - is low bar stronger? Or just a way to make you.mechanically more efficient and lift less distance?
You don't hear people say - just do rack pulls you lift more weight and get stronger quicker compared to regular conventional deadlift.
Hi Kettlebelephant, sorry about that the late response. I started doing power cleans to help supplement for my boxing.
LoL, yeah there is no way I can do 2-3 times per day for 7 days a week. I train with power cleans twice a week simply because conditioning, boxing and a mix of weight training and kettlebell training takes a toll on me.I can believe in such a thing for professinal oly lifters who train 2-3 times per day 7 days per week, but not for the rest of the population who strength train for 2-4 45-60min sessions per week.
Does Louie Simmons shares the same idea as Ripp? I remember watching a video on Louie saying that a lot of weight lifters needs to be doing a lot of eccentric work and a lot of accessories work to build up their strength.Ripp needs to put up or shut up. I have read his long article on how our weightlifters "just need to get strong," and the best way to do that is using powerlifting technique on deadlifts and squats.
I once again post this video. I agree that the powerlifters here are on the extreme end of crappy squats. Nevertheless, I ask the following two questions:
1. Which group of athletes have stronger legs?
2. Which squat style will better translate to strength in the Olympic lifts?
I don't know the answer, but here is some food for thought. These male powerlifters appear to be squatting ~1000 lbs (I don't believe those above parallel depths are representative of most powerlifting federations). Whereas the high bar squatters are using ~600 lb ATG squats, or about 60% of the weight of the low bar squatter. Please correct me if you think that these numbers are not representative of these 2 groups of athletes.1. Which group of athletes have stronger legs?
2. Which squat style will better translate to strength in the Olympic lifts?