Olympic Clean ?

Marlon Leon

Triple-Digit Post Count
@Bill Been: Rippetoe is insisting on getting strong first, then the lifts will go up. Many people have tried that and it didn't work. After pushing squats up, the lifts stay the same.
As for the deadlift the correlation is very weak that is a person with a high deadlift will still have only a meager clean.
The low bar squat resembles a lot the starting position during the pull, but this is usually not where athletes struggle and they already do a lot of pulls which are more specific.

Strength exercises are assistance exercises for Olympic lifters that is they are brought up together with the lifts in proportion. Deadlifts are done seldom as they take a lot of time to recover from and usually improve also without direct training from all the pulling and squats.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
a powerlifting deadlift and the first pull of the clean are different. If you want your deadlift strength to carry over do your deadlifts exactly how you would do your clean.
Two Different Deadlifts

As Mike stated, a Powerlifting Deadlift is completely different than a the First Pull "Deadlift" in an Olympic Lift.

I have posted information on this topic before with the research to back it up.

1) Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift

Research by Dr Tom McLaughlin (back in the 1980s) demonstrated that the Conventional Deadlift in Powerlifting is initiated with the back. Additional research over the decades in the National Strength and Conditioning Research Journals by Exercise Physiologist have reinforced it.

Dr Bret Contreras' (among others) have demonstrated that upper back rounding with Conventional Deadlifter Powerlifters, decreases torque, positioning the bar closer to the body's Center of Gravity; minimizing torque.

2) Olympic Lift Deadlift (aka First Pull)

The objective is to correctly position the bar for the Second Pull, where the greatest Power Output occurs. The more Power that is produced in the Second Pull, the higher the bar moves for the catch.

In the Olympic Lift Deadlift the legs drive the weight off the floor ensuring the back is positioned optimally for the Second Pull.

Performing a Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift with some Rounding of the Upper Back in performing the Second Pull, guarantees failure with a lighter load.

Kenny Croxdale
 

MikeTheBear

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Thanks @kennycro@@aol.com your input is always appreciated.

To be fair to Rippetoe he does not encourage upper back rounding when he teaches the deadlift. Nonetheless what he teaches is still different than how weightlifters do their first pull and it's definitely different from my first pull. I set up with my feet slightly wider but not quite as wide as my squat. Bar is over my midfoot. My grip is fairly wide because I need a wider grip to properly rack the bar. My hips are low.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
To be fair to Rippetoe he does not encourage upper back rounding when he teaches the deadlift.
To Be Fair To Mark

I use to lift with Mark in the same weight class decades ago and referee with him at meets. Mark was also a Certified Strength and Conditioning Association with the National Strength and Conditioning Association, as I am.

Mark had one of his article published in the National Strength and Conditioning Journal, years ago. For an article to be published it has to go through a Peer Review Board; it easier to get a book published than have get an article in the NSCA Journal.

I like Mark. I like some of his ideas on training, now the but...

Some of the thing Mark comes up with at times don't make sense, in my opinion.

Mark's No Upper Back Deadlift Rounding

This Conventional Deadlifting Protocol has been touted for decades; recommending "Pushing the feel through the floor, driving the weight up with the legs, not using the back, "Leg Pressing" the weight off the floor.

Scientific research by Dr Tom McLaughlin and other as well as anecdotal data from lifter have demonstrated that some upper back rounding is going to occur and when preformed decreases torque.

Mark Deadlift Training Method is a good exercise. However, isn't effective for the majority of Conventional Deadlifters max competition pull. It not the right tool for the job.

Using Higher Heel Olympic Shoe

Mark when off on a tangent about in one of his article years ago. Mark promoting using Olympic Weightlifting Shoes with an elevated heel. Doing so, reduced the loading on the back shifting it to the quads.

Mark bias toward the use of Olympic Lifting Shoes for the Deadlift was based on his personal experience. Mark was a Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift. Mark was quad dominate, using his legs to drive the weight off the floor rather than his back.

The Fourth Powerlift

This another one of Mark's quirky ideas. Mark decided that the Lying Pullover with a Triceps Extension at the end of the movement was/is "The Fourth Powerlift".

Granted Power was needed and employed in completing the ending Triceps Extension. It is a good exercise. However, it is not a Powerlift; a misnomer, as know.

Powerlifting is a measurement of Limit Strength with max load with a slow grind. It takes seconds to complete.

True Power Movements occur in around 300 milliseconds.

Olympic Movements

I am a huge fan of Olympic Lifting Movement for Power. My first coach had use perform Squats, Bench Press, Deadlifts, Power Snatches, Power Cleans, Various High Pulls and Push Presses.

At one time I was a Certified Olympic Lifting Club Coach (the novice end of Olympic Coaching). However, I let that laps.

I have fair degree of knowledge about the Olympic Lifts. I know enough to know that I Don't Know Enough; so I only have minimal input and defer to those with more "Skin in the game" of Olympic Lifting

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Taranenko74

Double-Digit Post Count
How do you get stronger with the Olympic clean? Do you work on accessories movements or do you just continue doing the exercise? Thank you.
Hi!

I'm a certified WL -coach from Europe, here's my quick "5 cents" on this matter:

1. first and foremost develop a rock solid technique, hire/meet an experienced coach and see him/her regularly. Once you're able to clean say 90 % of your front squat, then

2. build up your leg strength (=fs/bs). Keep on practicing the clean technique, aim always to catch your new 90% of fs

3. add clean pulls say 90-110% of your best clean once pos 1. and 2. above are met. Please understand there's no use to add heavy pulls until your technique is solid, you can't utilize the pulling strength in case your technique and especially receiving the bar is sloppy

4. add clean deadlifts once pos 1-3 above are met. Again there's no use to drive up the DL until the technique is solid. Please notice it may take several years from pos 1 to pos 4, depending on individual, training frequence etc.

Weightlifting is a skill sport. First learn the skill, then add strength. Drive the strength and power a bit ahead of skill, but not too much.

Good Luck! Be patient! Practice and enjoy the journey!
 

Glen

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Wanting to keep this thread going as I love the olympic lifts. I'm in a weird place though as my strength for squats far out weighs what I'm technically good enough to lift. In reality I need to find the time and cash to go and have a continuous period of being coached
 

wespom9

More than 500 posts
Certified Instructor
I'm only a beginner on the Oly lifts, but when I do them myself or teach I do from the hang position. I was very influenced by Mike Boyle in this regard. He views the first pull nothing more than getting into the proper position for the second pull (paraphrasing his words here, please understand). So, all his athletes go from the hang. Bend the knees, push the hips back, find the jump point and power clean/snatch. Train the explosive part because that is the focus for athletes.

I'm curious as to other's thoughts on that idea. Is it necessary for non-oly lifters to go from the floor? Or should "take what's useful (for the task) and discard the rest"?
question 2: because explosiveness is what matters, is necessary to full clean? is the power clean enough for the desired effect?
 

MikeTheBear

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I'm curious as to other's thoughts on that idea. Is it necessary for non-oly lifters to go from the floor? Or should "take what's useful (for the task) and discard the rest"?
question 2: because explosiveness is what matters, is necessary to full clean? is the power clean enough for the desired effect?
The short answer is "Yes." If the only reason for doing the clean is to build explosiveness for other athletic endeavors and there is no desire to ever get into weightlifting, then start from the power position and do a power clean.

BUT...

There is a longer answer which I will post later.

He views the first pull nothing more than getting into the proper position for the second pull (paraphrasing his words here, please understand).
This is true, but don't misinterpret the phrase "nothing more than getting into the proper position" as "unimportant." As I've said in my earlier posts, the first pull is not like a deadlift. I'll leave it at that for now.
 

wespom9

More than 500 posts
Certified Instructor
This is true, but don't misinterpret the phrase "nothing more than getting into the proper position" as "unimportant." As I've said in my earlier posts, the first pull is not like a deadlift. I'll leave it at that for now.
Nope I agree, and I think the point is that if you CAN get into the proper "jump" position with the hang, there is no need to do it from the floor (which requires a lot more hip mobility and technique I would imagine)
 
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