Other/Mixed Order of Exercises?

[Kenny Croxdale]

doing “cardio” e.g. jogging before strength

Controlling AMP-k and mTOR for Maximum Muscle and Fat Loss
Dr Michael Ruldolph, Muscular Development Magazine, 2015

This artcle examined where to place Cardio Endurance and Strength Training in a program.

The two elements that drove the most effective choice were...

AMPk, Activated-Protein Kinase

One of AMPk's jobs is to burn fat.

It is turned on with cardio, fasting, and below maintenance caloric intake.

AMPk shut down the anabolic muscle building process; the body prefers to focus on one task at a time.

With endurance exercise, it's turned on for about an hour.

mTOR, Mammalian Target of Rapamycin

mTOR is an anablic trigger.

It is turned on with strength training and the amino acid, Leucine.

A minimum of 2.5 grams of Leucine turn on the anabolic process. Approximately, 30 gram of quality protein will provide you with 2.5 gram of Leucine.

Strength training also turns mTOR and triggers the anabolic response

After strength training, mTOR (muscle building) remains on for about 5 hours.

The Caveat

The problem is that AMPk and mTOR cancel each other out.

AMPk turns off protein synthesis, the muscle building process.

Cardio preformed post resistance training shut down and/or dampens the anabolic muscle building process.

Thus, resistance training preformed first in program followed by cardio is compromised; much of the anabolic muscle building objective is lost.

mTOR turns off lipolysis, the fat burning process.

The Cardio First Issue

The problem with performing Cardio first immediately followed by Strength, Power or Speed Training is the it dampens Strength, Power and Speed Training Development.

The Solution

The May 2015 issue of Muscular Development magazine had a very good article on this.

The article provided some good research on the best time to perform cardio.

1) Cardio before strength training. That because AMPk's fat burning job last about and hour.

Thus, taking a slight break after Cardio prior to Strength Training is more effective for optimizing Strength Training.

It ensure that AMPk does not dampen the mTOR, muscle building effect.

2) Performing Cario and Strength on sperate days or breaking them into a morning training session .

Of the two option the this is the optimal.

It insures that AMPk's fat burning effect is optimized and does not interfere mTOR's muscle building effect and vise versa.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Grinds before ballistics in my opinion.

Power Before Strength

Research shows that Power needs to be perform first in the batting order; before Maxium Strength Training.

Performing Maximum Strength prior to Power Training is counter productive. Power is not trained nor developed to the same capacity.

Defining Ballistic

Many movements are labled as Ballistic rather than Quazi-Ballistic.

A Ballistic Movement occurs when a body or object goes airborne.

The Ballistic Training Effect

When a body or object goes airborne in a movement, it ensure that Power is produced/developed through the entire range of the movement.

In a Quazi-Ballistic Movement, Power is produced and developed in a smaller range of the movement.

 

[John K]

Keep in mind this is talking about structuring a training session, not structuring an entire day, or even where to put a session in your day. If you train once a day, and you know you will be most consistent training before work, then all we're looking at is how to structure that time.

A few years ago, I walked 3 mi to work (and back), and the place I worked had a gym. I'd wake up (around 1:30 in the afternoon), walked 3 miles to the gym, lift, work a 12 hour factory shift, and then walk 3 miles back. Some might say this was less than ideal, but I got used to it, and I was able to get stronger and get leaner and get "fitter." So in that case, I would walk -> ballistic/explosive stuff -> strength stuff -> conditioning stuff -> work -> walk. So within my training I kept that order, but the rest of my day (which I couldn't really change) didn't factor in to that. The most I could have done would be walk -> work -> train -> walk but that never worked out well for me. And at some point I started doing S&S by the book and would do S&S -> walk -> work -> walk, and that worked well too.

 

[tomstranger]

Controlling AMP-k and mTOR for Maximum Muscle and Fat Loss
Dr Michael Ruldolph, Muscular Development Magazine, 2015

This artcle examined where to place Cardio Endurance and Strength Training in a program.

The two elements that drove the most effective choice were...

AMPk, Activated-Protein Kinase

One of AMPk's jobs is to burn fat.

It is turned on with cardio, fasting, and below maintenance caloric intake.

AMPk shut down the anabolic muscle building process; the body prefers to focus on one task at a time.

With endurance exercise, it's turned on for about an hour.

mTOR, Mammalian Target of Rapamycin

mTOR is an anablic trigger.

It is turned on with strength training and the amino acid, Leucine.

A minimum of 2.5 grams of Leucine turn on the anabolic process. Approximately, 30 gram of quality protein will provide you with 2.5 gram of Leucine.

Strength training also turns mTOR and triggers the anabolic response

After strength training, mTOR (muscle building) remains on for about 5 hours.

The Caveat

The problem is that AMPk and mTOR cancel each other out.

AMPk turns off protein synthesis, the muscle building process.

Cardio preformed post resistance training shut down and/or dampens the anabolic muscle building process.

Thus, resistance training preformed first in program followed by cardio is compromised; much of the anabolic muscle building objective is lost.

mTOR turns off lipolysis, the fat burning process.

The Cardio First Issue

The problem with performing Cardio first immediately followed by Strength, Power or Speed Training is the it dampens Strength, Power and Speed Training Development.

The Solution

The May 2015 issue of Muscular Development magazine had a very good article on this.

The article provided some good research on the best time to perform cardio.

1) Cardio before strength training. That because AMPk's fat burning job last about and hour.

Thus, taking a slight break after Cardio prior to Strength Training is more effective for optimizing Strength Training.

It ensure that AMPk does not dampen the mTOR, muscle building effect.

2) Performing Cario and Strength on sperate days or breaking them into a morning training session .

Of the two option the this is the optimal.

It insures that AMPk's fat burning effect is optimized and does not interfere mTOR's muscle building effect and vise versa.

I think this is the information I was thinking of. I have seen it summarized elsewhere. Thanks.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

The article provided some good research on the best time to perform cardio.

1) Cardio before strength training. That because AMPk's fat burning job last about and hour.

Thus, taking a slight break after Cardio prior to Strength Training is more effective for optimizing Strength Training.

It ensure that AMPk does not dampen the mTOR, muscle building effect.

Does this still hold true if we are talking about a 10-15 minute HIIT session after strength training? I need to keep some conditioning in my program, but I'm currently lifting 6 days a week and I don't have much time outside of that hour I have every morning, so my plan was 2-3 days a week to add a quick 10-15 minutes of hill sprints or similar immediately following my strength work.

 

[Bauer]

Does this still hold true if we are talking about a 10-15 minute HIIT session after strength training? I need to keep some conditioning in my program, but I'm currently lifting 6 days a week and I don't have much time outside of that hour I have every morning, so my plan was 2-3 days a week to add a quick 10-15 minutes of hill sprints or similar immediately following my strength work.

Fat burning and muscle building are only two (yet popular and important) of the possible adaptations. @Harald Motz often does easy LISS after strength training and he does not seem too weak nor frail

 

[North Coast Miller]

Power Before Strength

Does this still hold true if we are talking about a 10-15 minute HIIT session after strength training? I need to keep some conditioning in my program, but I'm currently lifting 6 days a week and I don't have much time outside of that hour I have every morning, so my plan was 2-3 days a week to add a quick 10-15 minutes of hill sprints or similar immediately following my strength work.

My earlier recommendation is in context of a bootcamp or GPP type hybrid session. In my experience it is very tough to generate good tension after doing explosive training, but by reducing load a bit one can still train explosive work after some grinds. In my experience there is a slight bit of post potentiation even. YMMV

If seriously training attributes or skill, the more challenging component should always be trained first so the skill of the movement is crisp.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Does this still hold true if we are talking about a 10-15 minute HIIT session after strength training?

HIIT After

Yes, this will work.

This type of cardio promotes mTOR rather than AMP-k.

How To Get Fit With 3 Minutes Of Exercise A Week: BBC Doc Tries "HIT"

How To Get Fit With 3 Minutes Of Exercise A Week: BBC Doc Tries 'HIT'

High Intensity Training delivers the same physical benefits as traditional endurance training, even though it takes considerably less time.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Simple Program

1. First, you warm up for a couple of minutes with some gentle cycling: then you cycle as fast as you possibly can (“hell for leather”, as Mosley describes it) for 20 seconds.
2. Then, you cycle gently again for a couple of minutes while you catch your breath, then do another 20 seconds “flat out”.
3. Then, for a final time, two minutes gentle cycling to catch your breath, followed the third period of 20 seconds at “full throttle”.

And that’s it. Do this HIT program three times a week, and you have a total of 3 minutes a week of intensive pedalling, and about 6 minutes of gentle pedalling.

This HIIT Training is based on Dr Jamie Timmons' reaseach.

This is a good HIIT Program that you might consider.

Initially, I was skeptical. However, it works.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

In my experience it is very tough to generate good tension after doing explosive training, but by reducing load a bit one can still train explosive work after some grinds. In my experience there is a slight bit of post potentiation even.

Exercise Order

The first exercise obtain more benefit that the second, third, etc.

Thus, if an individual preform Explosive Power first it will take something about Maximum Strength Training the is placed second.

The same is true if an individual perform Maximum Strength Training first and Explosive second.

Decreasing The Maximum Intensity/Load

Reducing/limiting the Maximum Load/Intesnsity elicit the Post Activtion Potentiation effect.

“A muscle fibre that is recruited but not fatigued is not being trained.”
Vladimir M. Zatsiorsky, Science and Practice of Strength Training

Limited Load/Intensity in a Maximum Strength Training Program, limited Strength Gains.

Maximum Strength Training

At some point in a Maximum Strength Training Cycle, the Load/Intensity need to be pushed to failure or near failure with Auxiliary Exercise.

Pushing the Maximum Strength Training Session need be in the last week of the Training Cycle.

Each week leading up to the Maximum Strength Training Cycle need to be view like a "Warm Up Set (Warm Up Week in the Training Cycle).

The objective of Warm Up Sets/Warm Up Weeks is to perpare an individual for the final set/week in training, where gain are obtain.

 

[wespom9]

Very general outline

Mobility/Dynamic Warmup
Speed
Power
Strength
Endurance work

The rest honestly probably doesn't matter unless your paycheque is derived from your physical ability

 

[watchnerd]

That doesn’t make sense. Strongfirst programs routinely include, for example, grinds and ballistics in the same session.

Minimalist programs require compromise from what is optimal.

When I'm in competition prep (like I am now), I do my competition ballistics (snatch, clean & jerk) on a separate day from my squats and pulls.

When I'm not in competition prep, yeah, I'll do both on the same day, but in that case I'm just practicing at 60-80%, not trying to peak.