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Other/Mixed Organizing strength/hypertrophy/fat loss cycles

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Oscar

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Hi all,

I'm curious on what is the best way to organize cycles of training focused on strength, focused on hypertrophy and then focused on fat loss.

Lets say I'm an amateur, beginner powerlifter, low twenties body fat %. I will need strength focused training, I will need hypertrophy in the right places and I will need to get rid of some fat. I'm focused on long term performance, rather than a meet in 3 months.

I'm also interested on how to cycle eating along with training.

My non-educated guess would be something like:

- follow a program focused on strength with associated hypertrophy. For instance 5 sets of 5 or similar. During this period, eat a lot, gain weight and don't pay much attention to body fat %. If during this period I have to compete in a meet, do it at a heavier category than my ideal one. If I go to the beach, accept that I will be carrying some fat and refrain from breathing when I take off my shirt.

- at a 2nd stage, cycle the training program as per the program requirements or recommendations. In parallel, maintaining the rather heavy weight for the gained muscle to settle.

- at a latter stage, reduce food intake and lean out. I'm not sure what kind of program would best fit during this stage? An hypertrophy program to try to keep the gained muscle (knowing some muscle would be lost)? Or a strength focused program, so that the muscle that is lost is not the one I will need to lift weight?

- at a final stage, close to the target meet, do the typical final weight loss and taper down training.


I've seen many of the more experienced members of the forum have gone through this process one way or the other, like @Steve Freides for powerlifting, @305pelusa for calisthenics and @North Coast Miller for bodybuilding (I think?). So I would greatly appreciate your views.
 
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IMHO, Oscar, the first thing is to get your body fat where you want it. That accomplished, you can concern yourself with gaining muscle.

-S-
 
I will need to get rid of some fat
Only if you want to compete in a certain weightclass, otherwise no need to drop the fat.
Of course this is based on performance. Healthwise it's probably best to limit fat to below 20%.
Training for performance and competing will most likely come at the expense of health. If you really want to go to a certain level you'll have to accept that.

follow a program focused on strength with associated hypertrophy
IMO the associated hypertrophy takes focus away from the most important point which is absolut strength. Get on a program that's specifically designed for pure strength and don't worry about hypertrophy or body composition at all.
Besides a linear progression like SS or 5x5 will also put a good amount of muscle on your body.

My approach (and that's something I base on what I've read and seen about professional powerlifters and oly lifters) would be as follows:

1) Absolute strength first!
This should be the number one priority, period. Everything else will have to move aside for that goal.
Beginner linear progression (e.g. SS) until you milked them completely.
Recently we speak a lot about "strong enough" and certain benchmarks and diminishing return points for health and athletic endevours. Those benchmarks like 1-1.25x BW bench, 1.5-1.75x BW squat & 2-2.5x BW deadlift are just the basic entry point into competitive powerlifting. You'll have to go way beyond that if you really want to be competitive, even as an amateur.
So after linear progression comes an intermediate routine (e.g. Texas Method). Ride that out until you don't make progress anymore.
Depending on your entry point into all of this, this whole phase might take 1-3 years. Probably leaning more towards 3 years than 1.
Now it's time to start with routines for intermediate to advanced lifters (e.g. 531).
And now is also the time you can make room for other priorities like body comp, hypertrophy and working on weak links etc.

2) Lean out!*** (only if you plan to compete in a specific weight class)
What's your targeted weight class? Aim for that number, but add 5-10Kg (depending on how good you're able to cut weight before a meet).
For example Dimitri Klokov competed in the -105Kg class, but his "everyday"-weight was in the 110-115Kg area. Before a competition he'd cut down to 105Kg again.
Why did he do this? Simple, more mass means you can lift more. At 110-115Kg he could lift more weight than he could at 105Kg. That way he could train with heavier weights than he would use at the competition. That's also the reason why you hear and read that a lot of power- and oly lifters had bigger inofficial records in training than what they ever lifted in a competition.

3) More strength + hypertrophy
Now that you a) have a high amount of strength and b) are close to your competition weight you can work on adding strength at that bodyweight and maybe you can work in specific hypertrophy work.
Just be aware, that every pound of muscle you add to your body is another pound (hopefully of fat) that you have to loose before a competition to make weight...
...or you decide to move up in weight over time.
Ilya Ilyin is an example of that. He started competing in the -84Kg class, went on to compete in the -95Kg class and in 2014 competed in the -105Kg class (even though those gains were made under heavy influence of PEDs as we now know...)

That all is if you're serious about competing.

For average Joe who doesn't need that high strength right now and just competes for the fun of it, I'd go like this.

1) Lean out
Doesn't have to be too drastical. Get into that 10-15% BF range.
At the same time work on a good base of GPP -> a bit of strength work, a good "cardio" base, fix mobility issues & imbalances/increase FMS score.

2) Strength
I'd still choose a linear progression, but would opt for a routine that leaves more room for other stuff (e.g. Greyskull LP).
Absolute strength is the priority, but at the expense of a progress that's a bit slower than something like SS you can already work a bit on hypertrophy and keep in a bit of cardio to keep that heart healthy.
Since you leaned out first you can even gain a bit of fat while getting stronger, because afterwards it will be a lot easier to lose it than if you'd started at much higher bodyfat numbers and the high strength will also enable you too use bigger weights for your hypertrophy work and bigger weights equals better hypertrophy response.

3) Whatever you like
That can mean focusing on more strength, more hypertrophy or a mixed approach or whatver you like.


***Since you specifically asked what kind of routine to choose while leaning out.
I'd always go with a strength routine that has a lot of room for recovery (e.g. PttP or Tactical Barbell). You want to limit the strength loss to a minimum.
I'd think a hypertrophy routine would quickly wear you out while on a calorie deficit and as a result will lead to bigger muscle and strength losses than it would be the case with an apropriate strength routine.

Everything based on reading, seeing, hearing and not based on personal experience. Just what I'd do in that situation while training myself. Hiring a coach with exprience in the field would obviously be the best choice.
 
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Spend some time on Lyle McDonald's site. He has discussed this quite a bit and I find his stuff very logical.
 
I've done the diet cycle and hypertrophy cycle only once during my barbell training period, so my experience is limited. However, I think it has pointed out to me that I think the body composition goals should be aligned with your training year. For example, a deload cycle or a variety cycle is the perfect time for trying to lose fat. Trying to lose fat when peaking for a competition isn't rational either, apart from dieting for the weight class at the very end. I think dieting for hypertrophy makes the most sense in a volume cycle, where the program should by nature have a set/rep scheme for suitable to hypertrophy, compared to the deload period or the peaking period.

I wouldn't worry about leaning out to a certain weight class before you get very competitive.
 
Thanks all for the replies! I've been reading Lyle Mcdonald articles and they are really interesting. His suggestion, for anybody wanting to increase muscle and reduce fat, are basically as follows (the figures below apply to a male in beginner stage):

  • reduce body fat to 10-12% before starting hypertrophy phase.
  • Start hypertrophy phase. Aim for a weight gain of 1 pound per week, out of which half should be muscle.
  • Continue the hypertrophy phase until reaching 15% body fat. This should take about 16 weeks.
  • Two weeks of steady weight. If cardio was not done before, it should be added at this stage.
  • Drop back down to 10% in a way that prevents muscle loss.
  • start over.
All the above figures are for a beginner male, not using drugs. For advanced men and for women the muscle weight gain per week is a lot less. If starting at a higher fat percentage, he suggests a body recomposition phase before starting the hypertrophy phase, until reaching about 12%.

He doesn't go into detail of the training program for each phase (as far as I saw).

This seems to be roughly in line with @Steve Freides and @Kettlebelephant suggestions, about getting lean at the beginning.

To be honest, I had the idea that eating a lot was good for muscle gain. McDonald goes into this conception, as a rather outdated approach used by bodybuilders. He suggests that no matter how much we eat, we will not gain more that 1/2 pound of muscle per week. So all additional weight gain will be fat.

Thanks all for the replies, and thanks @mprevost for the suggestion, I learned a lot today!
 
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Thanks all for the replies! I've been reading Lyle Mcdonald articles and they are really interesting. His suggestion, for anybody wanting to increase muscle and reduce fat, are basically as follows (this applies to a male in beginner stage):

  • reduce body fat to 10-12% before starting hypertrophy phase.
  • Start hypertrophy phase. Aim for a weight gain of 1 pound per week, out of which half should be muscle.
  • Continue the hypertrophy phase until reaching 15% body fat. This should take about 16 weeks.
  • Two weeks of steady weight.
  • Drop back down to 10% in a way that prevents muscle loss.
  • start over.
All the above figures are for a beginner male, not using drugs. For advanced men and for women the muscle weight gain per week is a lot less. If starting at a higher fat percentage, he suggests a body recomposition phase before starting the hypertrophy phase, until reaching about 12%.

He doesn't go into detail of the training program for each phase (as far as I saw).

This seems to be roughly in line with @Steve Freides and @Kettlebelephant suggestions, about getting lean at the beginning.

To be honest, I had the idea that eating a lot was good for muscle gain. McDonald goes into this conception, as a rather outdated approach used by bodybuilders. He suggests that no matter how much we eat, we will not gain more that 1/2 pound of muscle per week. So all additional weight gain will be fat.

Thanks all for the replies, and thanks @mprevost for the suggestion, I learned a lot today!

Half a pound of muscle a week is massive, let me say massive (imagine the capitals and bold letters and so). So by no means think little of this number or the means to get to this number.

Gaining, if we allow me to use the term, is an interesting issue. When I read The Complete Keys to Progress, articles from 50 years ago, it seems that the World back then was a World different compared to today. Who would have thought? But to get to the point apart from hangover ramblings, it seems that back then malnutrition was a more common issue than obesity, and the advice that followed reflected this. What am I getting to? Sorry. To make it concise gaining is an issue that clearly separates people; some people have zero problems - I'm one -, some have difficulty eating properly and so on.

Lots of great advice, I go again to Dan John, point out that it is a great idea to do hypertrophy and weight loss cycles back to back. I can not claim to know better, so it must be a good idea. The advice you @Oscar pointed out looks to be the same, so it gets even further validation. However, I'd be wary about the exact bodyfat measurements and so.

The last point I'm going to make is that a lot of plateaus have been broken by eating. And the eating hasn't resulted in a permanent fat increase. We want to get strong(first), right? Better hit the Chinese all you can eat buffet.

Thank you, sorry, goodbye, as we say in Finland.
 
As an addendum I'd like to disagree with @Kettlebelephant and his overall excellent post.

I think it's the best to have a clear volume, building, cycle, and afterwards a peaking cycle, compared to a straight forward strength cycle. To make a comparison (?) we have to build a base, which we can chisel into strength. So when we take into account the weight loss aspect we have even more types of cycles to take into consideration.
 
Half a pound of muscle a week is massive, let me say massive (imagine the capitals and bold letters and so). So by no means think little of this number or the means to get to this number.

Agreed that such rate of muscle gain is massive. He clearly states that it can only be sustained by a young male during his first year of training (and possibly doing an hypertrophy program). For more experienced lifters or women, the rate is reduced to half or 1/4 or even less.

About the specific fat %, I wouldn't pay much attention to them, as you said. Im not a bodybuilder and I wont be going to the Olympics, so getting to 10% BF demands an effort I'm not willing to do. But I find interesting the concept that eating above some point is probably going to increase fat, not muscle. And also, the hypertrophy and fat loss cycles back to back.
 
Thanks all for the replies! I've been reading Lyle Mcdonald articles and they are really interesting. His suggestion, for anybody wanting to increase muscle and reduce fat, are basically as follows (this applies to a male in beginner stage):

  • reduce body fat to 10-12% before starting hypertrophy phase.
  • Start hypertrophy phase. Aim for a weight gain of 1 pound per week, out of which half should be muscle.
  • Continue the hypertrophy phase until reaching 15% body fat. This should take about 16 weeks.
  • Two weeks of steady weight.
  • Drop back down to 10% in a way that prevents muscle loss.
  • start over.
All the above figures are for a beginner male, not using drugs. For advanced men and for women the muscle weight gain per week is a lot less. If starting at a higher fat percentage, he suggests a body recomposition phase before starting the hypertrophy phase, until reaching about 12%.

He doesn't go into detail of the training program for each phase (as far as I saw).

This seems to be roughly in line with @Steve Freides and @Kettlebelephant suggestions, about getting lean at the beginning.

To be honest, I had the idea that eating a lot was good for muscle gain. McDonald goes into this conception, as a rather outdated approach used by bodybuilders. He suggests that no matter how much we eat, we will not gain more that 1/2 pound of muscle per week. So all additional weight gain will be fat.

Thanks all for the replies, and thanks @mprevost for the suggestion, I learned a lot today!


The program he recommends during the hypertrophy phase is his "generic bulking routine." Google it. It is a super simple routine but it is effective.
 
@305pelusa for calisthenics
I mean I'm sure there's many ways to work but I'll offer an alternative to @Steve Freides' based on what I read from Dan John in MMS.

I think it works well (for me at least) to start with the hypertrophy phase. But none of that "oh don't pay attention to BF". Definitely choose a lean bulk and gain slowly to ensure as much of it as possible is muscle.

Once you start hitting ~15% BF, then you can run a lean cut cycle.

I personally like doing it this way because I find it's really easy to lose fat after a lean bulk. I'm much stronger and my metabolism is super high. So it works pretty well.

Just an idea since you were asking for some personal experience.
 
@305pelusa, I don't mean to suggest that starting with cutting is what @Oscar or everyone should do. When I said
IMHO, Oscar, the first thing is to get your body fat where you want it. That accomplished, you can concern yourself with gaining muscle.
I meant it literally, and for someone whose bodyfat percentage is already at or close to their goal bodyfat percentage, then a hypertrophy focus makes sense. @Oscar, in his example, cited bodyfat in the low 20's percentage, and you mention cutting once you reach - by getting up to, I'm assuming - 15%.

I don't think we're suggesting anything too different from one another here.

I also think it's worth mentioning that achieving a "lean bulk" can be difficult for many people - I think that's why people alternate these cycles in the first place.

-S-
 
@Steve Freides : I see. It's all in spectrum. If you're 40% BF, I think you'll probably want to lose fat. Someone who is at low 20s can conceivably begin to lose fat first, or build muscle first. I probably would recommend the latter. That seems against the 15% figure (and it is!), but that figure is actually just a personal rule as Calisthenics really depends on being lean. If Calisthenics is your main discipline, then cutting down to at least 15% first is what I'd recommend :)


Also Lean bulk doesn't mean "just adding muscle". It just means "trying your best to not put on fat". So it actually still gets alternated with cutting periods. It's just the cutting periods are shorter and the bulking periods are longer.

What you certainly want to avoid are the "dirty bulk" where you just eat as much as possible. Maybe a fine strategy for top heavyweight, steroid-fueled, PLers but I personally don't think it's that helpful for really anybody else. I personally prefer a more sensible bulk where you slowly add in healthy calories, which typically gets called "lean bulk".
 
Thanks @305pelusa that makes sense. After going through the thread I think that losing BF or gaining muscle are both acceptable alternatives. As long as we don't lose much muscle while leaning out, or don't put too much fat while gaining muscle. Eating reasonably below or above maintenance seems to be the answer.

I think I have been using squats as an excuse to eat a lot. Apparently not a sensible approach.
 
I think I have been using squats as an excuse to eat a lot. Apparently not a sensible approach.
The choice of lift matters. If I had to cite one reason why I stopped being a 3-lift powerlifter and went to DL only, it's because squatting made me hungry and I started adding weight that I didn't want to add.

-S-
 
The choice of lift matters. If I had to cite one reason why I stopped being a 3-lift powerlifter and went to DL only, it's because squatting made me hungry and I started adding weight that I didn't want to add.
Interesting Steve, I've never considered it before your post but squatting and deadlifting both improve my testosterone levels equally from the few tests I've had done at different times. That said, squatting + DL = weight gain, while DL only did not. Maybe I'll experiment with this some more to validate this observation for myself. Thanks!
 
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