Other/Mixed Painful push-ups - front delts
- Thread starter Anna C
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Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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No, definitely don't have the same issue when performing an overhead press. There is some discomfort, but nothing that stops me from doing presses or makes me do it any differently, or causes any loss of strength. My press is relatively strong (for my gender/weight/age) - single 24 kg kettlebell, double 24 kg kettlebell, and 50-54 kg barbell.
Now, as to whether the press is part of the cause of the issue is another story... but I don't really know the answer. I do know that while I don't have much trouble while doing it, it seems to fire up some problems the next day or so. Same thing for push press and jerks.
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
I think the fact that you can press a 24kg without issue (what's your RM with it, if you don't mind me asking?) and feeling some struggle doing 5+ pushups is a big clue. As to what, I can only speculate:
- Is the angle your humerus makes significantly different in your press groove compared to your pushup groove? For example, does your arm travel more laterally in the KB press?
-When my left shoulder was giving me anterior discomfort I could do pike pushups just fine. Regular pushups were what lit it up. PRI drills and application of PRI principles. as I previously noted, are what have helped it the most. I could stabilize my scaps when my body was piked (in flexion....) but apparently could not when I was in a plank. Similarly, KB presses followed. I can press on the right without any issue whatsoever, but pressing on the left sometimes leads to neck tension and other tightness, a symptom of my body reflexively trying to work around an instable scapular position. Months/years of breathing drills later, and now standard pushups are 90-95% without issue. KB presses are better but maybe more like 80% on the left.
I suppose if you're making progress, there's less pressure to see a physio/specialist, but I still would. As to where you're feeling the pain/issue, I'm no physio (yet...
) but that's a common area for pain to radiate to when there's issues upstream with any number of things. So another $0.02 to see a physio or other specialist. Most of the time, whatever the issue is, it's caused by improper scapular rhythm or positioning.-Tangent/soapbox. . .
I see a lot of advice to work around issues, which is fine, so that we can keep training when we have them. I worry that this lets people slip into the habit of avoiding working on issues they have in their bodies. I say this because there's also a lot of "my body just doesn't do 'x'." Well, it should, and sometimes it can even when you think it can't. It just might need the right solution applied. Ideally, you should be able to do pushups pain-free in multiple angles, you know? So why can't you? Let's look for the answer. I hope I don't sound harsh or argumentative here; I just have overcome some body issues that I was initally told were incurable or unsolvable, and I want people to know that perseverance can pay off. That's why I push for fixing issues instead of perpetually working around them.
Hope it helps!
MikeL
Level 6 Valued Member
I think I’ve said elsewhere, I have a very similar issue. Over zealous OAPU volume (10x10) and training through the “ping”.
Consider also, the pec minor. I suspect mine is a small tear.
I found relief from BASIC yoga and mobility, continuing to press. Few weeks of long suitcase carries after that. I still feel it, I have to make sure I get tight but push-ups and presses are fine now, OAPU ok but I’m cautious.
Consider also, the pec minor. I suspect mine is a small tear.
I found relief from BASIC yoga and mobility, continuing to press. Few weeks of long suitcase carries after that. I still feel it, I have to make sure I get tight but push-ups and presses are fine now, OAPU ok but I’m cautious.
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
With the limited data I have I would assume a rotator cuff issue.
When I've had this issue previously I took a break for 6 weeks from pressing and hammered my upper back/rotator cuff directly.
Never had that issue again but I always did a lot of rotator cuff work from hence forth.
I am, currently. Described in another thread but hadn't said that yet in this thread, so I should get that up to date. I got a referral in November and got my initial evaluation 11/24. The PT says weak rotator cuff muscles so we're strengthening those.
So... They agree with you
It's been almost 3 weeks now and there's been some change, but the left shoulder is still giving me some pain. I think whatever is going on with the left is also going on with the right, but it's not quite as bad. So the stretch and strengthening routine applies to both, 3x/week. Basically 4 stretches and 4 exercises (40 reps total), 1 each targeting infraspanitis, supraspanitis, teres minor, and subscapularis.
Big picture view -- I sit at a desk ALL DAY for work, and have for 20 years now. I do IT/computer work from home now since March 2020, and some of the work days have been particularly long lately (compounded by the fact that a good bit of my non-work time is also at the computer... like now), Then I do weightlifting. Then my other exercise/activity (cycling, walking, hiking) doesn't really involve the upper body. So, surely not enough variety of movement for the shoulders. And I've tried various things and there are great ideas in this thread, but it's hard to know what to add when things feel overworked already. So for now I'm trusting the PT and doing their exercises and we'll see where that gets me. Meanwhile still weightlifting and also working in push-up variations as I can tolerate.
I probably couldn't press 24kg currently on the left... maybe 20... but can on the right. And I can barbell press 50 kg. Don't know my current RM but I'm pretty sure I once did a 2 x 24+24 (here is a single). Anyway... pushing has always been a totally different challenge for me. I struggled mightily trying to get my bench press to any decent numbers, finally in 2018 got to 155 lbs. But I have really regressed with that too, since I've hardly done any bench pressing these past couple of years. I may start working in some very light bench presses too. They always seemed to help my upper back as well as shoulders feel better.
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bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
Glad to hear. Desk work is rough on the body! I didn’t have many of my aforementioned issues until I started going to college a few years ago, and consequently also sitting almost the entire day. I try to take breaks and move around but more often than I’d like to admit I get caught up in work and forget.I am, currently. Described in another thread but hadn't said that yet in this thread, so I should get that up to date. I got a referral in November and got my initial evaluation 11/24. The PT says weak rotator cuff muscles so we're strengthening those.
So... They agree with you
It's been almost 3 weeks now and there's been some change, but the left shoulder is still giving me some pain. I think whatever is going on with the left is also going on with the right, but it's not quite as bad. So the stretch and strengthening routine applies to both, 3x/week. Basically 4 stretches and 4 exercises (40 reps total), 1 each targeting infraspanitis, supraspanitis, teres minor, and subscapularis.
Big picture view -- I sit at a desk ALL DAY for work, and have for 20 years now. I do IT/computer work from home now since March 2020, and some of the work days have been particularly long lately (compounded by the fact that a good bit of my non-work time is also at the computer... like now), Then I do weightlifting. Then my other exercise/activity (cycling, walking, hiking) doesn't really involve the upper body. So, surely not enough variety of movement for the shoulders. And I've tried various things and there are great ideas in this thread, but it's hard to know what to add when things feel overworked already. So for now I'm trusting the PT and doing their exercises and we'll see where that gets me. Meanwhile still weightlifting and also working in push-up variations as I can tolerate.
I probably couldn't press 24kg currently on the left... maybe 20... but can on the right. And I can barbell press 50 kg. Don't know my current RM but I'm pretty sure I once did a 2 x 24+24 (here is a single). Anyway... pushing has always been a totally different challenge for me. I struggled mightily trying to get my bench press to any decent numbers, finally in 2018 got to 155 lbs. But I have really regressed with that too, since I've hardly done any bench pressing these past couple of years. I may start working in some very light bench presses too. They always seemed to help my upper back as well as shoulders feel better.
Hope the PT helps!
Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
It sounds like you've had a diagnosis @Anna C - good...
I had shoulder decompression surgery about five years ago and my pain was a combination of bursitis from poor posture aggravated by the infraspinatus firing internally against a bony spur picked up by a scan.
I now work at my PC stood up in the morning and sat down in the afternoon. In the McKenzie book he emphasises the importance of lower back lordosis to ensure shoulder and neck posture when seated.
I had shoulder decompression surgery about five years ago and my pain was a combination of bursitis from poor posture aggravated by the infraspinatus firing internally against a bony spur picked up by a scan.
I now work at my PC stood up in the morning and sat down in the afternoon. In the McKenzie book he emphasises the importance of lower back lordosis to ensure shoulder and neck posture when seated.
william bad butt
Level 7 Valued Member
I'm dealing with my own shoulder issues. I am winning that war! Shoulder is feeling good, I was easily overhead pressing 55 lb dumbells yesterday. I know it doesnt sound like much but at 1 pt 15 lb felt unstable.
I'm learning that the shoulder takes a long time to heal. On Saturday I was able to squat and bench press 100% pain free (it felt normal, not even tightness). It has been a multi month journey. I will soon start adding dips back into my routine.
Eric
I'm learning that the shoulder takes a long time to heal. On Saturday I was able to squat and bench press 100% pain free (it felt normal, not even tightness). It has been a multi month journey. I will soon start adding dips back into my routine.
Eric
No go on the knuckle push-ups currently... too painful and too difficult.
Still doing OK with a few on the push-up board, with elbows out to 45 degrees.
Practicing full-tension planks in various positions, some one-arm elevated on the kitchen counter, etc.
I watched the videos and I don't think it's biceps tendon. Doesn't really match his description. Doing a biceps curl, for instance -- no hint of any problem. But I'm not sure.
PT is going well for the rotator cuff, and slowly progressing with push-up variations (the general front-of-the-shoulder pain that I had on both sides seems a bit better), but I'm not sure it's going to solve the more specific pain problem with the left shoulder. Might need to go back to doc for some imaging. I'll give the PT until after Christmas then we'll see....
OK, just checking. Currently getting over something similar , which started getting better when I added bicep tendon work to the mix. Hard to say though, time might have been the benefit.
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
@Anna C I might suggest trying some landmine presses. Do them from half or full kneeling, or even from a seated straddle, similar to a z press. Just put some old t shirts or something in a corner and use your barbell. Keep the elbow in line with the wrist, ribs strictly down, no arching at the top/end range or motion, and do your best to keep tension out of the neck. Experiment with different angles and heights, from more horizontal to more overhead.
In my opinion the landmine is highly undervalued for teaching scapular motion. I bought a Viking attachment to do them and it’s helped a ton. I don’t even load it much and I’ve seen great carryover to things like push-ups and pike push-ups.
In my opinion the landmine is highly undervalued for teaching scapular motion. I bought a Viking attachment to do them and it’s helped a ton. I don’t even load it much and I’ve seen great carryover to things like push-ups and pike push-ups.
I got some mixed advice at PT today. I told them the left shoulder was really hurting this week. The PTA that started my session said, wow your biceps tendon is really inflamed. She did some "scraping" which she said would be uncomfortable, but it really wasn't. She talked about how I should give it a rest for a week or two, then start back slow to lifting. Then I went through the the rotator cuff and some additional shoulder stabilizer exercises.
Then, the PT did some AC joint mobilization. He said, no, the biceps tendon is fine. That's hypertrophy (i.e. my biceps tendon is a lot thicker than the average 54 yr old). It's just AC joint inflammation. He said, keep doing what you're doing (weightlifting + PT stretches and exercises), do the weightifting reps, just back off on the weight if you feel it's aggravating it (pain or strain). I think I can do that. They both said the joint is unstable. So, prescribed and performed stability exercises in addition to rotator cuff exercises. I guess instability combined with heavy lifting irritates the smaller structures in the shoulder, then they get inflamed, then there's more pinching and discomfort in overhead positions, which causes more inflammation, and can also cause nerve compression when lying down which causes that radiating pain down the arm that I feel at night. All that sounds about right for what I'm experiencing. So, keeping up with PT and will do programmed training as I'm able to, backing off when needed.
Then, the PT did some AC joint mobilization. He said, no, the biceps tendon is fine. That's hypertrophy (i.e. my biceps tendon is a lot thicker than the average 54 yr old). It's just AC joint inflammation. He said, keep doing what you're doing (weightlifting + PT stretches and exercises), do the weightifting reps, just back off on the weight if you feel it's aggravating it (pain or strain). I think I can do that. They both said the joint is unstable. So, prescribed and performed stability exercises in addition to rotator cuff exercises. I guess instability combined with heavy lifting irritates the smaller structures in the shoulder, then they get inflamed, then there's more pinching and discomfort in overhead positions, which causes more inflammation, and can also cause nerve compression when lying down which causes that radiating pain down the arm that I feel at night. All that sounds about right for what I'm experiencing. So, keeping up with PT and will do programmed training as I'm able to, backing off when needed.
- 4 lb dumbbell hold in hand up and elbow bend 90 degrees, 3 min to the front, 3 min to the side.
- One-arm plank against the wall with hand on ball, move hand back and forth 30x, up and down 30x, clockwise circle 30x, counterclockwise circle 30x.
Nate
Level 6 Valued Member
Arm bar? I wonder how much their prescribed exercises are truly their first choice or than most people wont get TGU or AB, so their routine is to go with simpler light external rotations etc.
Yes, arm bar should be a good one, too. I've done arm bars but mainly as a mobility exercise, not much total time. I think the trick with these stability exercises is to really put some solid minutes in and fatigue those muscles; get a little localized burn going. Kind of like a mini-body-building stimulus for those small muscles.
william bad butt
Level 7 Valued Member
For my shoulder issue, I believe the rest and back off, letting my shoulder heal, is doing more for me than the PT exercises. Although I'm doing both. This has taken much more time to heal then I expected.
I had to quit picking the scab for a few months. I'm still not 100%, but progressing nicely.
Eric
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
A lot of physical therapy exercises seem to be formulated like “hypertrophy light.” Smaller muscles are supposed to recover more quickly than larger ones, and small muscles that are supposed to act as stabilizers instead of prime movers are usually trained in such way as to increase their endurance. It’s not uncommon to see rehab/prehab exercises prescribed for sets/reps of something like 3/15 (or 30, like you listed). As much as we are about minimal effective dose around here, I sometimes wonder if that dose is higher than we’d expect depending on the context.
Don’t know if the arm bar would hurt, but I’m not sure it’ll help with pressing stability. Shoulder stability through any pressing movement (except the bench press…) is about the scapula making solid contact with the rib cage, it’s rhythm with the humerus (it’s not uncommon for the humerus to move “more” than the scapula…) and the ability of the rotator cuff to do it’s job effectively. If the rhythm of the humerus and scapula are off, it likely means the rotator cuff has to basically work harder to do it’s job. The arm bar doesn’t seem like it would effectively translate to much of that. It might help train extension patterns (maybe?). I’m not knocking it, but that’s two cents from me.
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