Barbell Park bench program advice

[Nightfly]

Advice appreciated from experienced people here. After lots of reading I am considering either:

• 2 days a week full body barbell program based on 5x5. Some light cardio/mobility on 2 to 3 other days per week.
• Or Easy Strength 5 days per week perhaps for a few cycles. A short session of carries, complexes or swings each day to finish.

Goals, get stronger, lose fat, keep diet under control. Improve health. Not get injured.

I've been doing a couple of kettlebell bus bench programs and I am sore in a few joints. Reps have increased on the lifts (squats and presses etc) and I've lost 10lbs so it's been a success of sorts but I need a change.

Male early 50s, 186cm tall and 105 kg so slightly overweight. Not that strong - 1rm bench 80kg, squat 90kg, deads 120kg. I struggle to get stronger, the bar feels crushingly heavy. Had some recent coaching in squats and deads so they could hopefully improve with more work.

Which would be more sustainable for the summer through to autumn and which would give me more progress?

Tia

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I feel higher frequency programs like Easy Strength are more accommodating to strength progress under reduced caloric intake while losing weight. Lower frequency requires significant volume each session that is hard to progress and recover with reduced calories.

 

[watchnerd]

I feel higher frequency programs like Easy Strength are more accommodating to strength progress under reduced caloric intake while losing weight. Lower frequency requires significant volume each session that is hard to progress and recover with reduced calories.

+1

I'll agree with this as very good advice, in general, especially for beginners.

However, it is possible, but you have to be dead-nuts accurate on your program to make it work.

I am doing it right now, as part of my summertime cut before I start true competition prep in October. I follow a 3x a week Heavy / Light / Medium protocol.

But:

--I have 7 years of lifting data for the lifts in question, so I can dial in my periodization pretty precisely
--I have change plates to practice micro-loading down to the 0.5 kg level
--I've done it several times before, so psychologically, I know what to expect
--I get a DEXA scan every 2 months to ensure I'm not losing LBM in the process
--I get an RMR analysis every 2 months so I know my base metabolism for the minimum caloric threshold I need to say above
--LBM measurements are used to precisely quantify protein targets for daily consumption
--I track every single calorie I eat and macro nutrients every single day for 12 weeks, minimum
--I go to bed at 9:30 pm each night, making me socially boring during this cycle
--I'm 50, so hormones are not on my side

It's a complete PITA with a data set on par with S&C studies.

Most people would not find it fun.

It's far from Park Bench in feel.

And, at the end, the strength gains are mild to flat (the goal is to mostly stay the same, but get significantly leaner).

Easy Strength is a far better approach for people who aren't willing to treat themselves like a medical test subject.

 

[Nightfly]

That seems pretty conclusive, so I will go with ES. Might I lose any muscle I have gained due to the low volume? It should be easier on my joints and allow them to recover so that's a plus. I am definitely not up for a complex routine like watchnerd.

I am listening to the audiobook Intervention and Dan John advises that getting stronger fixes things (losing fat and getting more lean body mass in my case) so that's my aim. Over 5+ years kettlebells have improved me no doubt: but I am not strong for my size and I do wonder how much progress can still be squeezed out. The barbell seems the best chance remaining to improve "raw strength" which may lead to easier body recomposition. Any faults in my plan?

How does this sound for 5 days a week, plus one extra day of yoga:
Suitcase deadlifts (using a kettlebell in each hand, I could get these up to 120kg+ )
1 arm kettlebell press
barbell rows
ab wheel or planks
+1 swings, light run or carries, possibly a complex for a few sets.

@watchnerd - as a fellow enthusiast, what are you wearing today? A bronze case diving watch for me

 

[watchnerd]

@watchnerd - as a fellow enthusiast, what are you wearing today? A bronze case diving watch for me

Just a beater, a Seiko turtle "Save the Ocean" model.

With lockdown, it feels silly to wear my fancy pants watches when I'm not going out.

 

[watchnerd]

How does this sound for 5 days a week, plus one extra day of yoga:
Suitcase deadlifts (using a kettlebell in each hand, I could get these up to 120kg+ )
1 arm kettlebell press
barbell rows
ab wheel or planks
+1 swings, light run or carries, possibly a complex for a few sets.

@watchnerd - as a fellow enthusiast, what are you wearing today? A bronze case diving watch for me

If the goal is just general wellness, you've got a hinge, a press, and a pull. It's a good start. My tweaks would be:

--No squat. You don't have to load it, but you should probably have something just to keep the movement pattern. Even bodyweight in warm up.

--If you do hinges and DLs on the same day, that's two hinges. You might want to swap them out on alternating days. I do clean pulls on heavy days, snatch pulls on medium days, and KB swings on light days.

--The ab wheel/plank are anti-extension, but you're already getting a lot of anti-extension work with all the other bi-lateral work you're doing. I'd want to work in anti-lateral flexion (e.g. side plank progressions) and anti-rotation (e.g. Palloff press) core work.

--Turn the suitcase deadlift into single-sided suitcase carries and you'll kill several birds at once: DL, anti-lateral flexion, grip training, conditioning

--I have a love / hate relationship with barbell rows. I can do them explosively with good form (Pendlay row), but if I do them as a heavy grind, my form breaks down and it turns into an a-hole bro move. I do better with unilateral KB rows. Maybe you're better at BB rows than me, but it's a common issue.

 

[Nightfly]

I'll have to look into this a bit more as I don't know some of those movements, but it's good and I appreciate the feedback.

I'll try it for the first cycle with some of those suggestions. Yes, BB row should probably be replaced with something less risky. Batwings maybe or a 1 arm row.

I didn't add in a squat as I read it isn't very effective using easy strength (apart from goblet squats to warm up) but I think at my level that might not apply so I will add a loaded squat back in and see how I feel after a few weeks.

 

[watchnerd]

I didn't add in a squat as I read it isn't very effective using easy strength (apart from goblet squats to warm up) but I think at my level that might not apply so I will add a loaded squat back in and see how I feel after a few weeks.

I think you can start with KB goblet squats and then proceed to unilateral KB front squats without taxing the system too much, and it add some unilateral balance to the routine.

 

[Nightfly]

Will it make me strong with all the unilateral work? Or is it now a health and fitness program as it's without the big lifts?

 

[vegpedlr]

OP:
I’ve done something similar to both of your proposed plans, and they both work. But in your case, ES is more of a change, and I think better suited.

Check Dan John’s work and do what he says. Mostly. (He says not to do both swings and carries to keep thensession short.)

Warm up with some swings and goblets
Deadlift variation
Push
Pull
Ab wheel
Loaded carry

Skip the complexes for now. Use the rest of your time for easy aerobic work or mobility type stuff. Everything is there, push, pull, hinge, squat, carry, ballistic, anterior chain. Repeat 40 times, then evaluate.

 

[watchnerd]

Will it make me strong with all the unilateral work? Or is it now a health and fitness program as it's without the big lifts?

Well, what's your goal?

If your goal is to become a powerlifter, no, your current program design won't get you there.

Easy Strength-type programs are not going to get you as brute strong as you can possibly be, nor is that their purpose.

They were originally designed as low-recovery strength programs for athletes who need to spend 85% of their time and effort in their sport and not in the weight room.

If your goal is just to get strong on the major power lifts, a 5x5 type program is a better fit.

But at your age, they're probably going to have to be modified. Squatting heavy 3x a week doesn't usually work out very well in the long run past a certain biological age or lifter-training years.

And a 5x5 program is definitely not a "park bench" program.

FWIW, I squat 3x a week because my sport requires it, but I do Heavy/Light/Medium, where Heavy/Medium are front squats and Light is overhead squats.

 

[Nightfly]

Well, what's your goal?

If your goal is to become a powerlifter, no, your current program design won't get you there.

Easy Strength-type programs are not going to get you as brute strong as you can possibly be, nor is that their purpose.

They were originally designed as low-recovery strength programs for athletes who need to spend 85% of their time and effort in their sport and not in the weight room.

If your goal is just to get strong on the major power lifts, a 5x5 type program is a better fit.

But at your age, they're probably going to have to be modified. Squatting heavy 3x a week doesn't usually work out very well in the long run past a certain biological age or lifter-training years.

And a 5x5 program is definitely not a "park bench" program.

FWIW, I squat 3x a week because my sport requires it, but I do Heavy/Light/Medium, where Heavy/Medium are front squats and Light is overhead squats.

You make good points and I'm learning from the back/forth conversation. Hopefully I dont come off as an objectionable a-hole but it's hard to tell sometimes it's not my intention. It helps to test out my thinking before I embark on a few months of training. The advice here is always solid.

My goal - to get stronger /closer to some minimum strength standards, in order to make it easier to improve my body comp long term. I am not a natural strength athlete (lots of past sports but most based on speed/ skill/ endurance etc).

My flexibity and conditioning are not bad. I am making progress on fat loss/ diet changes. While I'm losing the last 10kg of excess flab I am unlikely to get more muscular... so if I get stronger to keep the muscle I have and it'll help with future hypertrophy/ fat loss etc. I am trying to apply the Dan John/Pavel ideas.

Yup, "brute strength" powerlifting is not on the cards. Just something simple enough for me to understand that I can run for a long time while I lose weight (at 0.5kg per week it could be months). My barbell experience was 25+ years ago adolescent bodybuilding, and a few months of recent relearning + training with a friend where I got my latest PR's. So your ideas on exercise selection for Easy Strength are welcome but a bit novel for me (not tried those ab exercises, or suitcase DL on one side only, or snatch grip DL, pendlay row etc).

I'll try it and see if ES can get me eventually to 1.5 bw deadlift, x1.25 squat, x1 bench. I might be happy forever with that.

The 5x5 ideas came from reading "old time" methods of getting stronger all over the web. I thought I could recover from sessions 2x per week but haven't tried it.

all the best

 

[william bad butt]

Easy Strength is a fine program. If you do easy strength, be conscious of actually keeping the sets "easy". Its harder than you would think. Sometimes folks push too hard and it becomes Difficult Strength.

Do this for a while. 40 days or whatever. Then maybe set a specific training goal (like a bodyweight press and double bodyweight deadlift, or whatever), and spend a few months on this bus bench program. Then go back to a park bench program like Easy Strength for many months. Rinse and repeat. Make small, incremental, consistant improvements, for the rest of your life. It's the Journey, man!

Good luck!

 

[watchnerd]

I'll try it and see if ES can get me eventually to 1.5 bw deadlift, x1.25 squat, x1 bench. I might be happy forever with that.

No worries, dialog and debate are good.

So I'll ask you a question back:

Why do those particular numbers matter?

Ex-strongman Alan Thrall had an interesting video on this, and he's well under 50:




I think Alan makes a point about the journey versus the numbers.

As for me, I only care about how my numbers compare to my competition.

As for ES...give it a shot!

I don't think there is much to lose.

 

[watchnerd]

Sometimes folks push too hard and it becomes Difficult Strength.

This is why I learned I can't do Easy Strength....and I tried.

7 years off off-season / pre-season / competition cycling has habituated me to training a little bit harder, but less frequently.

It might work better for people for whom lifting is S&C, as opposed to the sport itself.

 

[william bad butt]

This is why I learned I can't do Easy Strength....and I tried.

No problems here. I'm all about Easy! My "off season" can typically be an easy strength program. I keep it a short off season and spend most of my year in pre season with a 10 week competition cycle. For off season, right after a meet, I prefer a couple weeks of doing nothing g and then easy strength (with kbs no barbells for a month).

 

[watchnerd]

No problems here. I'm all about Easy! My "off season" can typically be an easy strength program. I keep it a short off season and spend most of my year in pre season with a 10 week competition cycle. For off season, right after a meet, I prefer a couple weeks of doing nothing g and then easy strength (with kbs no barbells for a month).

Oh, when I'm in off season (as opposed to pre-season), I don't touch barbells at all.

In part because I don't like to work out in my frigid unheated garage with a 40 degree piece of bare metal in my hands during the fall and winter.

Kettlebells and bodyweight are my strength modalities in the frigid months so I can stay warm.

 

[william bad butt]

Oh, when I'm in off season (as opposed to pre-season), I don't touch barbells at all.

In part because I don't like to work out in my frigid unheated garage with a 40 degree piece of bare metal in my hands during the fall and winter.

Kettlebells and bodyweight are my strength modalities in the frigid months so I can stay warm.

Yes me too. Kbells become the main modality. Barbell takes a back seat.

 

[vegpedlr]

My flexibity and conditioning are not bad. I am making progress on fat loss/ diet changes. While I'm losing the last 10kg of excess flab I am unlikely to get more muscular... so if I get stronger to keep the muscle I have and it'll help with future hypertrophy/ fat loss etc. I am trying to apply the Dan John/Pavel ideas.

ES should be a good fit for these goals. Keep it simple, so the work, punch the clock, day in and day out, use the time freed up by the short sessions to really nail your body comp goals. Dan John when discussing his bench analogy says you should only get on a bus bench in one area of your life at a time. So a bus bench training program should not be combined with a disciplined diet. Pick one or the other bus bench, and let the other run on autopilot.

 

[Nightfly]

Why do those particular numbers matter?

It's based on the *minimum* standards for men that should be achievable for nearly all. And even then I've diluted them slightly based on my present numbers.
It's my SMART goal with particular emphasis on the "realistic"

I like the Alan thrall video and have done some sports to a good level (so didn't "watch video games all day") but strength is my weakest point. I may age better if I give myself a push and improve it. Or...I may set a goal too high and crash and burn too hehe.

Kettlebells are fun but aren't quite getting me there and I notice the strong people here all use barbells and kbs.