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Barbell Pavel/Faleev's 5x5....

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singlemalt

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Greetings Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have a few questions for the forum. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Please, excuse the long post.

First an introduction;

I am 45 yo male from Connecticut. I have no physical limitations at this time. I see a chiro every 5 weeks for a “tune-up” and have had a relationship with him for about 10 years. My original issues were related to overuse aches and pains from running and cycling. The over emphasis on long slow distance and a few years of hot yoga didn't improve my back and neck to the degree that I wanted. This led me back to weight training. I used to “workout” back in the day, and although I was serious about what I was doing, I realize now that I was merely replicating what was written in muscle magazines or what could be gleaned from the Personal Training Manuals. Frankly, I ran a personal training business and I really question what I may or may not have given my clients. That being said, I eventually found a CF gym with a head coach that helped me find Pavel’s books, Kettlebells, and a path that has led me here. I have been working with Kettlebells for a 2-3 years. I, first, completed the Simple Goal in Sept. of ‘14, then after Dan John’s 10K Challenge, a few holidays, and reading many of the “own the goal, just don’t do the goal” SF forum entries I re embarked on the Simple goal once again. By Feb/March ‘15 time frame I had a better ownership of the Simple standard. I spent the spring, summer and early fall running, biking, and just playing with my bells.

Through a forum entry about Faleev/Pavel’s 80/20-5x5 program, I realized I have never, aside from S&S, made a concerted effort to get stronger. Pavel’s suggestion of 1.5xBW Bench press, 2xBW Squat, 2.5xBW Deadlift seem like a great place to start. I have accepted these as my goals. I am 6’1” and weigh 220lbs, up from 205 around the end of August (BTW I have made a concerted effort to eat more, so weight gain has been intentional). I started Faleev/Pavel’s 5x5 on my 45th birthday, Oct. 5, 2015. My numbers have increased. All weights in LBS; BP= 135 to 215-5x5, Squat= 165 to 245-5x5, DL= 235 to 305-5x5. To be fair and clear, at one time during my CF’ing, I low bar squatted 315x1 and deadlifted 365x1. When I started this program, I followed Pavel’s suggestion to work up to a “comfortable” 5x5 to start. I could have definitely done more, but wanted to be safe and pristine with form. The bench press has been the biggest surprise. I haven't BP’d in 18 years, so each week I start of thinking this week might not be pretty, but each week, I get my numbers!!! And I am psyched!!!

On to my questions;

-How long do I stay with the linear path I am following now? ie. numbers increasing each week, when to deload.

-I think I have gluteal amnesia. I have been working with hip bridges and glute firing exercises and feel it is paying off. Has anyone worked through this process of “waking up” their lazy a#@? If so, any thoughts?

-I have read PTTP and Marty Gallagher’s Purposeful Primitive. Pavel suggests to ride the bar down on the deadlift. Don’t drop it but rather follow it’s descent while holding the bar. Try not to resist the descent. Marty suggests a “soft touch” approach that has you feel and exert yourself on the eccentric portion of the deadlift. Anyone have any thoughts on experience with these two approaches?

Thank you for reading.
 
Welcome to StrongFirst!

singlemalt said:
-How long do I stay with the linear path I am following now? ie. numbers increasing each week, when to deload.
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You can go by feel - try to back off _before_ you start to plateau - or you can plan it. A lot of people use a "wave" cycle - go forward for three weeks, deload on the fourth week, and on week five, start over but a little higher than week 1.

singlemalt said:
-I think I have gluteal amnesia. I have been working with hip bridges and glute firing exercises and feel it is paying off. Has anyone worked through this process of “waking up” their lazy a#@? If so, any thoughts?
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Single-leg deadlifts are great for this; the movement is taught at the StrongFirst kettlebell course.

singlemalt said:
-I have read PTTP and Marty Gallagher’s Purposeful Primitive. Pavel suggests to ride the bar down on the deadlift. Don’t drop it but rather follow it’s descent while holding the bar. Try not to resist the descent. Marty suggests a “soft touch” approach that has you feel and exert yourself on the eccentric portion of the deadlift. Anyone have any thoughts on experience with these two approaches?
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Many of us have many thoughts on these two approaches. :) Both can work; a controlled negative is better for muscle growth but also riskier, while falling with the bar allows you to focus purely on the competition portion of the deadlift and will likely allow you to get more reps in any given training session while also remaining fresher. Personally, I prefer that most people learn to "fall with the bar" first, and when they're acquired some deadlift strength, they can learn to lower under control, practicing this skill with a light weight.

-S-
 
Well, as I was typing, I see that Steve F posted most of what I was going to say :). BTW, one thing I like about this new forum software is that you can see when this is happening.

The only thing I'll add is to ask why you think you have gluteal amnesia?
 
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Thanks Great Steves!
@Steve W. -I am in the medical field and have access to some PT's that come to our clinic. I get to spend sometime "picking"their brains about my perceived and actual mobility limitations. The seed was planted from a PT that worked with advanced ballet dancers juxtaposed to college strength training atheletes. She was amazed at the "tiny" dancers capacity to fire the posterior chain in the proper sequence opposed to these "big" brutes complaining of "low back discomfort" that could not be rectified without exercises to teach the firing of the glutes. She shared 2 hip bridge exercises with me and insisted that she couldn't accomplish anything with the "big" brutes until she got them to learn how to fire the glutes. The hip bridges were becoming almost universal operating procedure for althetes and non-athletes. Fast forward a few months and I am super intrigued to see Pavel's mention and use of hip bridges during his S&S warm up. My self assessment is purely observational and was looking for input from experienced users that may have had similar observations; ie low back tenderness, sore quads after squats rather than glutes, SI joint laxicity and/or rigidity, potentially poor pelvic stability, and generally feeling that I should be able to lift more weight when squatting or deadlifting for someone my size( purely subjective I know, my apologies). More specifically, once the practice of firing the glutes is started, what does the road map look like then? So, I guess this has been where my mind has been traveling in terms of my real or fake "gluteal amnesia." Thanx for your interest.
 
These symptoms could be a result of a lot of things. Not to say your self-diagnosis isn't correct, but I wouldn't necessarily assume it is, based on what you describe. Even good PTs get caught up in the trendy dysfunction of the moment and start to see it everywhere.

You're pretty experienced with the KB swing. When you swing, do you feel like your glutes aren't working? Even then, this can be a form issue rather than some muscle firing dysfunction.

That being said, it certainly can't hurt to experiment with different interventions and see what makes a positive impact. If hip bridges or other glute firing drills lead to feeling, moving, and lifting better, then do them.

Have you checked out Geoff Neupert and Tim Anderson's Original Strength material? I'm not sure I buy all of the rationale they present for it, but it seems (based on personal experience and reports from others) to have a very positive "tying things together and getting them working right" effect that carries over to a lot of activities, and is very user friendly and easy to implement. I don't look at is as a "dysfunction/correction" kind of thing, as much as a "doing this seems to help people feel and function better" thing, if that makes any sense.
 
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The glutes are hip extensors. If you squat down and stand back up, you went from hip flexion back to hip extension. How could you have extended your hip if your hip-extending muscles were "not firing"? How could you have done so for 5 sets of 5 with an extra 245 pounds on your back? How could you have gone from flexing your hips to grab a 305 pound deadlift bar to extending your hips and standing up with that same 305 pound bar - again 25 times- if your hip extensors were "asleep" or "not firing"?

Can somebody explain to me how it's possible to to extend the hip without the hip extensors?

This PTs theory comparing Gym Bro's and ballet dancers needs to bake a bit longer. Let's double the baking time on that one.

Related mini-rant: why are so many people so determined to find something "wrong" with themselves? Our OP is going along fine, kicking a#@ on his program actually, and somehow the culture has led him to scan his carcass for.....something.....that needs to be addressed. We had another guy just start worrying out of the blue about his hip flexors being weak. Then we "diagnosed" him with "quad dominance". Now he's going to go address this "problem".

singlemalt, I love ya Man. I love what you're doing and what you've accomplished. I want you to start thinking of yourself as a big strong nearly-bulletproof beast stomping the land vs a somewhat fragile being who might be just about to injure something because he's moving "wrong" or God didn't see fit to properly imprint "sequencing of your posterior chain". He did. It's okay. Keep going. If your form needs coaching - get some. But ferpitysakes stop worrying about...silly stuff. Sorry to be blunt. It comes from a heart of cheerleading.
 
Bill Been said:
Can somebody explain to me how it's possible to to extend the hip without the hip extensors?
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Bill, I don't think it's quite that simple. Try some one-legged deadlifts for the first time, and most people will "find" hip extensors they didn't know they had.

Bill Been said:
Related mini-rant: why are so many people so determined to find something "wrong" with themselves? Our OP is going along fine, kicking a#@ on his program actually, and somehow the culture has led him to scan his carcass for.....something.....that needs to be addressed.
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I agree with this sentiment in general, but none of us really knows if the OP is correct in his self-diagnosis or not. I agree with, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," but our body can develope compensations that, while they work in the short term, aren't necessarily good for us in the long run, so asking, "is this really working or is it broke and I'm cheating to get the job done?" is OK to ask. Not necessarily OK to act upon lacking specific evidence, but it's still an OK question.

One-legged deadlifts are good, regardless. I do these in various forms regularly, e.g., sometimes it's nothing more than executing the movement pattern but touching the floor rather than picking up a weight, and I'll be doing this in my kitchen. Or emptying the dishwasher standing on one leg and using the hand from the other.

-S-
 
There're all kinds of things you can introduce that will make your butt sore. This is not indicative of anything.
 
@Bill Been, yes, dear. :)

The muscles and movement patterns the one-legged deadlift finds tend to be underused by people who sit all day or otherwise aren't active; for this reason, I find them a valuable exercise worthy of being tried on most people. The movement, appropriately loaded, is also an excellent assistance exercise for the barbell deadlift, and has been used by a number of our Beast Tamers and Iron Maidens to help with their heavy pistol. It's a movement pattern I think everyone should be able to perform, and I consider the inability to perform it indicative of a problem. You are, of course, free to disagree, and you have my permission not to do these. :)

-S-
 
I wasn't commenting on one-legged deadlifts.
I was pointing out that the fact that they, like the double kettlebell walking lunges that made my glutes more sore than they had ever been before or since, does not stand as evidence of a previously-existing condition of "glutes not firing". It's like saying first experience with bicep curls made my biceps sore, so my biceps must not have been firing before.
 
@Steve W. Yes, I can really feel the glutes working during and after overspeed eccentrics. And as I am writing this, I am thinkng about some swings I was doing with a homemade T-handle. I experimented with heavy(for me), upwards of 110lbs, swings. I performed them S&S style, sets of 10, and after 5-7 swings my glutes were completely cooked, usually resulting in set termination.
And yes, as well, I am familiar with OS resets and use them daily. And yes, yet once again, the use of any glute firing exercises or any other exercise that coud help with execution resulting in increased strength or performance simply boils down to "try it and see!" So, thank you for your contributions.
@Steve Freides On the heals of my last statement directed to Steve W.I have started to implement your suggestion for one-legged deads and see what transpires. Any suggestions for implementation? Warm-ups, Assistance, every day use, only on DL day... On a side note, I notice that you put a tremendous amount of energy into this forum. I appreciate your call to arms!
Bill Been said:
singlemalt, I love ya Man. I love what you're doing and what you've accomplished. I want you to start thinking of yourself as a big strong nearly-bulletproof beast stomping the land vs a somewhat fragile being who might be just about to injure something because he's moving "wrong" or God didn't see fit to properly imprint "sequencing of your posterior chain". He did. It's okay. Keep going. If your form needs coaching - get some. But ferpitysakes stop worrying about...silly stuff. Sorry to be blunt. It comes from a heart of cheerleading.
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@Bill Been I'm touched at your expression of love!!! However, please, don't mistake kindness for softness! I was merely trying to generate a half-intelligent conversation about what I feel is an intriguing conversation. You made quite a jump from my original question/statement to presuming that I think of myself as "fragile" or that I am "worrying" about injuring myself. Perhaps, something else needs a little more time in the oven? I am aware of your penchant for debate, and my intent in responding is not to engage in a battle of intellect or opinion. I thank you for your intended contribution and appreciate your attempt at addressing something you view as a "trend" in this world of strength and conditioning.
 
@singlemalt, thank you for your kind words - always very much appreciated.

Poke around YouTube and watch someone good, e.g., @Brett Jones, @Karen Smith, etc., demonstrate a one-legged deadlift, or get yourself some in-person instruction. The key is to keep it hip hinge and not let it turn into a back bend or back twist. You want to be able to do the contralateral version.

For me, it is a "variety" activity - with weight, I don't do a lot of them and I don't do them often, but it's a skill I want to maintain. As mentioned previously, I like to GTG with this as a bodyweight-only activity but still mimicking the weighted version's groove. This is what I lose if I don't practice it regularly, and this regular practice is what allows me to do the weighted version on demand, IMHO.

For actual weighted one-leg DL practice, the contralateral version is what you want - bell on the ground just inside of arch of your right foot, pick up the bell with your left hand, go to complete lockout at the top, return the bell to the ground. Touch-n-go for repetitions, be sure to do both sides. When you want it heavier, put a second kettlebell on the outside of the bearing leg as well.

I like to be able to do something decent, e.g., 2/3 or 3/4 bodyweight, without any prep. For me at 150 lbs., a pair of 24 kg bells is that, so that's my baseline. I try it once in a while, and if I can't do it, I up my practice until I can, and then it goes on the back burner again.

singlemalt said:
@Bill Been ... I am aware of your penchant for debate...
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Oh, my! :) :)

-S-
 
Hi All,

A technical question about the 5x5 faleev program. My 1RMs are as below:

Bench 185lb

Squats 210lb

Deadlifts 310lb

I’ve been training Faleev’s 5x5s since January this year. I’m kind of struggling right now:

Bench 165lb: 3,2,2,2,1 (previous week: 4,3,3,2,2, the week before 155lb x 5x5)

Squats 165lb: 4,3,2,2,3 (previous week: 4,4,3,2,3, the week before 155lb x 5x5)

Deadlifts 260lb: 5,5,5,5,5 (previous week: 5x5 @255lb, the week before 5,5,4,3,4 @255lb)

I have three specific queries that I need help with. Wondering if any of you can answer these:

1) Do you think it’s time for me to switch to 3x3s for Bench and Squats? They seem to be getting surprisingly harder. Should I use the same weight I struggled with the last time (165lb) or bump it up to 175lb?

2) Or do you think I should take a deload. If yes, what weight should I come back to? A 10lb increase or the same weight I was struggling with? (Note: Increasing the weight makes sense when I’m doing a conventional deload)

3) Pavel suggest that I should eat a lot. But how much? Do we track them by calories (if yes, what do we recommend for someone who weight 185lbs?)? I am really not keen on to gain unnecessary weight (fat to be precise.)

Fingers crossed. I hope one of you is able to answer this.

Sunil

PS: My apologies if the questions sound too naive.
 
Below is a link to the blog where Pavel discusses this program.

Pavel: 80/20 Powerlifting and How to Add 110+ Pounds to Your Lifts

From the above:

"As the meet approaches, cut back from 5 x 5 to 4 x 4, 3 x 3, and finally, a couple of weeks before the competition, 2 x 2. Up the poundages accordingly."

And there you have the answer to your question #1: yes, cut back on the volume. Better, however, that you plan for a competition rather than simply wait for yourself to struggle. Stopping something that isn't working is better than continuing to do it, of course, but it's not as good as a plan that sees you make steady progress. For you, continue to progress in weight while you cut back in volume as the article suggests.

Your question #2 - see above. If you haven't not overtrained yet, follow the plan. If you feel you are overtrained, then you must deload.

Your question #3 - eat what you need to achieve your goals. If you need more muscle, eat more high-quality food; if not, don't. I am a weight-class athlete who gets on the scale every morning and adjusts my eating to keep my weight within a reasonable distance from what I need for competition.

-S-
 
Not an easy program: When I was doing Faleev 5x5 all I did was lifting, eating, and sleeping.
 
Steve Freides said:
Or emptying the dishwasher standing on one leg and using the hand from the other.
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I'm adding that one to brighten the day doing household stuff. Guess you could load up your dishwasher with a load of bells!
I try to do some everyday tasks with my non dominant arm. Not recommended when ironing your wife's chiffon blouse though or the more manly pursuit of re-wiring a plug. I like all these little moments. I break up my cooking with l-sits on the kitchen worktop, now a little kitchen combo superset of single leg deadlifts and l-sits! Thank you
 
Question 1: Is Faleev's 5x5, a pure strength program or is this strength and hypertrophy/muscles program ? There is > 5 mins rest between sets, and plenty of reps.

Question 2: Can one hope to lean out using this program? Can one use this as a Strength phase with a watchful, a caloric deficit diet, to reduce bodyfat? Or, do one need to eat a lot. I have been doing this a few weeks now, and it does not make me really hungry.
 
Five reps is generally thought to be the sweet spot between strength and hypertrophy. But I would hesitate to make a distinct difference between the two, for if there was strength without muscle, we wouldn't have weight classes.

I think a program like that isn't a bad place to diet moderately. But I think a better one would be an easy upkeep cycle, perhaps a deload after a heavy cycle. But if you don't do such, I don't think the 5*5 is a bad place to lose weight. I wouldn't try to lose weight on a hypertrophy program or when trying to peak for a certain occasion.
 
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