Bodyweight Perfect Push Up & Scapular Protraction

[watchnerd]

I'm a little puzzled by part of the instructions for the top position of a perfect push up with regard to the scapula.

In this article (by @Karen Smith ) it says:

"7. Corkscrew your shoulders into their sockets and visualize making an “X” on your back"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the cue, but to me the 'make an X' cue sounds like retracting the shoulder blades as if it were a bench press.

But the usual cue amongst the bodyweight crowd is to be fully protracted at the top, including from the start, in order to work the serratus anterior better, which looks like the right hand side of this picture (although this pic is showing a scap push up):

Am I misunderstanding the cue?

Or does Strongfirst have a different point of view regarding being in full scapular protraction at the top of a push up?

 

[Anna C]

Forgive my lack of anatomic terminology but I would say the StrongFirst push-up method is somewhere between those two. The emphasis is on connecting the arm firmly to the torso with a tight ("packed") shoulder, and creating tension through the body that translates to a OAPU or OAOLPU. There is a slight hollow body position, but not as much through the chest and shoulders as your gymnast push-up on the right.

We would also have the hands under the shoulders and closer to the feet, so that the forearm is close to vertical as the elbows come back close to the body at the bottom of the push-up. Head more in line with spine as with the picture on the right.

 

[watchnerd]

Forgive my lack of anatomic terminology but I would say the StrongFirst push-up method is somewhere between those two.

This picture is a little better:

Scapular retraction in the top position on the left, protraction on the right.

(Taken from this article, which also discusses the role of the serratus).

It sounds like the Strongfirst "house style", while perhaps not as retracted as the left picture, is definitely not as protracted the right picture.

Is that the gist?

 

[Anna C]

It sounds like the Strongfirst "house style", while perhaps not as retracted as the left picture, is definitely not as protracted the right picture.

Right... I would say, same thing as what I said above -- it's partway between those two pictures. The difference is that with the StrongFirst style, the shoulders are really actively pulled down towards the hips. She doesn't look like she's doing that to the degree we are taught to at SFB: corkscrew the hand, tight lat, pulled down shoulder, and more active hollow position for tension in the front of the body.

 

[bluejeff]

I can't tell you what the Strongfirst standard is, but I can give my two cents on these positions. I'll try and come back to give sources (strapped for time at the moment)!

My PT is having me focus on both protraction and external rotation during pushing motions to fix a one-sided shoulder tweak I've been having. I have also read multiple articles (and her advice mirrors this) explaining that some people mistake spinal flexion (hunch-back) for full protraction. You should have a neutral spine, protract as much as you can, rotate your shoulders (humerus) externally, AND engage glutes and lower abs to maintain posterior pelvic tilt.

 

[watchnerd]

I can't tell you what the Strongfirst standard is, but I can give my two cents on these positions. I'll try and come back to give sources (strapped for time at the moment)!

My PT is having me focus on both protraction and external rotation during pushing motions to fix a one-sided shoulder tweak I've been having. I have also read multiple articles (and her advice mirrors this) explaining that some people mistake spinal flexion (hunch-back) for full protraction. You should have a neutral spine, protract as much as you can, rotate your shoulders (humerus) externally, AND engage glutes and lower abs to maintain posterior pelvic tilt.

If I want to emphasize scapular movement, I prefer incline push ups because I can do more reps and force the serratus anterior to be the limiting factor that gives out first (as opposed to the more dominant pecs/tris).

 

[bluejeff]

Aren't you working towards planche skills? I would place heavy emphasis on protraction/depression if that's the case.

with the StrongFirst style, the shoulders are really actively pulled down towards the hips. She doesn't look like she's doing that to the degree we are taught to at SFB: corkscrew the hand, tight lat, pulled down shoulder, and more active hollow position for tension in the front of the body.

This is similar to what I was trying to say. That scapular depression facilitates the activation of your lower traps as well, which are crucial to healthy scapular motion.

I may be wrong, but in my mind, the scaps HAVE to move during a pushup. That doesn't mean they are relaxed; you still focus on those key points....

I have seen pushups and planche pushup variations done every which way, and have wondered about the "optimal" position/technique as well. In my mind, if you try to keep protraction during the eccentric phase, you will run into either two problems: either your range of motion will decrease or your scapulae will have to anteriorly tilt (stressing your upper traps), which we don't want (this is also the opposite of what Anna C was saying). Ideally, it seems you would want scapular motion, allowing your shoulders to retract at the bottom and protract at the top.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I think there are different standards, in function of the 'company' you consider:
- GMB
- Strongfirst
Etc...

Emphasis of the scapula is really something gymnastic oriented. There is no 'better' or 'worse', just different purpose

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[bluejeff]

Here: this is a great example of scapular motion without excessive protraction (read: spinal flexion). Shoulders stay depressed the whole time. The still photos show both positions very nicely imo.

Plans for Building Powerful Pushups | StrongFirst

It's no secret good pushups can build total body strength, but for maximal carry over to sport & life, you need to add explosive power.

www.strongfirst.com

This is not more protraction, this is just spinal flexion and scapular elevation. If this guy stood up straight in that position, he would be hunched forward and his shoulders would be shrugged up closer to his ears.

 

[bluejeff]

Hello,

I think there are different standards, in function of the 'company' you consider:
- GMB
- Strongfirst
Etc...

Emphasis of the scapula is really something gymnastic oriented. There is no 'better' or 'worse', just different purpose

Kind regards,

Pet'

Agreed. I have seen gymnasts perform planche skills with a flexed spine. It just doesn't seem like a sustainable way to train your movement patterns to me. I will say though that scapular health is paramount to just about every upper body strength move. The shoulder = scapula, if the scapula doesn't function well, the shoulder won't either, barring individual anatomical variations.

 

[watchnerd]

Aren't you working towards planche skills? I would place heavy emphasis on protraction/depression if that's the case.

Are you asking me?

 

[bluejeff]

Are you asking me?

I guess so haha. It sounded like you were in another thread if I'm not mistaken. If you're not then disregard

 

[watchnerd]

I guess so haha. It sounded like you were in another thread if I'm not mistaken. If you're not then disregard

I'm so far away from being able to do a planche it would be fakery to say I'm actively working towards it.

I can barely do a pseudo planche without face planting at the bottom.

(gearing up on pilates to help)

 

[bluejeff]

I'm so far away from being able to do a planche it would be fakery to say I'm actively working towards it.

I can barely do a pseudo planche without face planting at the bottom.

Not to derail the thread but I understand haha. It's amazing how fast it gets reeeeeaaally hard by just leaning a bit forward.

 

[watchnerd]

Emphasis of the scapula is really something gymnastic oriented. There is no 'better' or 'worse', just different purpose

I'm not sure I agree that this is really just a gymnastic thing.

A fair number of trainers seem to feel it's a good way to reprogram bad scapular behavior in populations that often have crappy scapular activation.

ACE's article on the subject:

"Healthy Movement: “The scapulae should retract and slightly inwardly rotate (depending on how wide the hands are placed apart) on the down phase of the push-up,” explains Price. “As the arms push away from the body, the scapulae should protract and slightly outwardly rotate.”

They also come out against the idea of forcibly maintaining scapular retraction if you care most about function and natural movement, calling it "totally inappropriate" for those goals:

"Another controversial way to target the pecs is to hold the shoulder blades in retraction during chest exercises. “Bodybuilding lore has people bench press or perform a push-up by holding the shoulder blades in retraction to eliminate the serratus anterior function of scapular protraction. This creates a greater demand on the pecs to bring the humerus into horizontal flexion,” explains Rubenstein. “This may serve a purpose if bodybuilding, [but] if lifting for function, it’s totally inappropriate” because it teaches the nervous system unnatural muscular sequencing."

Correct Cues for Scapular Motion

www.acefitness.org

 

[Starlord]

This is a method used when getting recruits to a standard where they can pass the push up test. It allows them to work the serratus muscles.

I am assuming this drill is referenced for similar reasons.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Interesting article from B. Contreras and biomechanics:

The Best Damn Push-Ups Article, Period!

Think you know all there is to know about push-ups? Ha! We thought so too…until we read this. Push-Ups Get No Respect While other bodyweight exercises like chin-ups and dips boast devoted fans from all corners of the industry, the lowly push-up is the veritable red-headed step-child of the...

www.t-nation.com

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Anna C]

@Pavel Macek demonstrates StrongFirst push-up style:

 

[bluejeff]

@Pavel Macek demonstrates StrongFirst push-up style

Looks protracted to me! I have been recovering from some unilateral shoulder issues. The hard style pushup is amazing in that it prevents all of these issues for me through its very active shoulder depression.

 

[watchnerd]

@Pavel Macek demonstrates StrongFirst push-up style:

Looks protracted to me! I have been recovering from some unilateral shoulder issues. The hard style pushup is amazing in that it prevents all of these issues for me through its very active shoulder depression.

Now that I see Pavel protracting at the top ....the hardstyle / Strongfirst push up just seems like a proper standard push up, done with good form?

The cues seem the same as most of what any reputable bodyweight routine would suggest for a high quality push up (tight core, squeeze glutes, modest PPT to neutral pelvis, squeeze the armpits to engage the lats, etc), including the breathing.

I must not be getting something....