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Kettlebell Picking the correct KB for TGU?

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Christa

Christa

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Since I am asking for a bit of training advice, I will start by covering the requisite information according to the forum rules.

- relevant demographics: 35, F, 5'6", 148# (67kg), 25-26% body fat

- injury history: none, a bit of crepitus in my knees (particularly the left) with squats, but never any associated pain

- movement history: have you had a Functional Movement Screen? No. Do you move well or do you feel your muscles and joints are in less than in good working order? I think I move well. I am a rock climber, former dancer, yogi and also study kinesiology- I believe I have pretty good kinesthetic sense and have not suffered any debilitating injuries from training, just a bit of DOMS.

- sports/competition history: More bookworm than athlete, I'm not really competitive. Rock climber for 16 years; that is my main sport/focus/passion. Also an avid skier/ski mountaineer. Ice climb, trail run. Mountains are my play ground.

And last but certainly not least, where do you want to go from here? What are your goals and dreams for yourself in terms of achievement with your body?

Primary goals are always the same- better body comp (fat loss) and to get stronger for rock climbing. I'm thinking at this point that I definitely want to train toward level 1 cert, no set timeframe on that though.

I'm new to hard style KB training (though not new to weight training). I have messed around with KBs in xfit, but... (I don't think I need to say anymore about that). I read ETK and as per the recommendation, I acquired a 12kg competition KB. Perhaps this was huberous to assume I am a 'strong lady.' Perhaps Pavel and I have different definitions of a 'strong lady.' But considering I can do 4-5 strict pull-ups and even do weighted pull-ups with up to 10#, I assumed that I was pretty 'strong' for a beginner lady. (I realize that's nothing compared to an Iron Maiden, but again, relative to a KB newbie.)

Swings are no problem with the 12kg. The TGU is. After trying a TGU with my 12kg bell last week, I realized I was going to hurt myself at worst, 'groove' bad technique at best and promptly ordered an 8 kg bell, which I am still waiting to ship. (The transition into the lunge seemed to be getting me.) In the meantime, I started practicing arm bars, presses and half get-ups with my 12kg bell. I also got my hands on a copy of Simple & Sinister as I had read that had the most up-to-date info on technique and standards. I started the 'Simple' program this morning. After practicing the TGU technique with a shoe, I was able to do it successfully with the 12kg bell on my right side. It was bit wobbly, but my shoulder stayed packed and my elbow straight. On the left side, I was able to successfully get to the lunge on the way back down- I think I transitioned too quickly because it suddenly got very wobbly and I had to rack the bell for safety purposes.

So, now, to get to the point. Work the TGUs with the 8 kg bell and build the stability slowly OR dial the technique without weight (using the shoe) and then practice it very slowly with the 12kg bell? I think I read in one of the books (ETK or S&S) that loading it up with a heavy bell would cause the stabilizing muscles to become even stronger more quickly.

Given the progress of my TGU in just 1 week with better technique and a few prep exercises, I'm afraid that I will quickly out grow the 8kg bell and then it will become a dust collector. If its better to work under the heavy bell in order to provide greater stimulus, then I think I want to cancel my order for the 8kg bell and have them send me a 16kg bell instead, which I know will be soon very useful for squats and swings, and will get significant use in the future as it will be the standard for the snatch test for certification.

Thoughts? Am I totally overthinking this? What the heck and I going to do with this 8 kg bell when I outgrow it (besides use it for weight pull-ups, but even that would be temporary, hopefully.)? Or just buck up, practice more with the 12kg and save my coin for the more useful 16 kg?

Thanks in advance for reading to the end of this and for offering any insight.
 
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Christa, please take a video of yourself performing a getup with a shoe and post a link to it here.

You may also use a non-kettlebell weight if you have it - the grip and wrist position won't be quite the same but perhaps it will help you bridge the gap.

Best would be to have you work with an SFG in person.

It's essential, given how you've described yourself with the 12 kg, that you arrange a spotter for yourself, at least until you are comfortable with that weight. We don't want you to get hurt.

Best would be to have you work with an SFG in person - gee, didn't I just say that? Well, it's worth repeating. :)

-S-
 
Ditto what Steve Said and if you can't find an SFG there are some good videos. Dave Whitley has one called DEEPENING YOUR GETUP SKILLS that is most excellent.
 
First option, like Steve mentioned, would obviously be to see a SFG.

I'm very, very slowly transitioning from the 24 to the 32 now. Going from 16 to 24 was much easier. There seems to be some "magical" barrier with the 32 :)
I think one of your problems is fear. You're not feeling comfortable with the 12 and you're afraid of hurting yourself. I had the same problem with the 32. Push Press or Jerk the heavy bell to the overhead position and then walk with it (Waiters Walk). Doing that gave me the confidence to keep the bell up there and support it. After a couple of days with that i started to do some windmills with the 32 and after i felt confidend with those i tried the TGU and it felt very solid.
Especially the Windmill will make you strong in your weak spot (the transition into the lunge), because it is the same hinge pattern.

Everybody is different, but my choice would be to order a 16, do TGUs with a shoe while doing Half-Get Ups, Waiters Walks & Windmills with the 12 and then slowly start using the 12 for full TGUs.
 
Agree with Steve, post videos of yourself using a shoe and then one using some weight, we can see where your technique breaks down once loaded. For now buy whatever used weight you can find, cheap DB's etc. An 8kg is good, especially for movement optimization work, for now though probably unnecessary.

Of course the in-person work with an SFG will always produce faster and safer results, have you looked for one in your area? Would be good for both of your businesses as well.
 
Christa, one thing I didn't notice at first. Well, two things.

You haven't had an FMS.

You are feeling significantly better on one side than the other in your getup.

I'd get that FMS and look for differences between sides.

-S-
 
Thanks for everyone's thoughts so far! Regarding working with an SFG... the closest one is a minimum of an hour from me via the highway.

I'm also considering the SFG course. There are two one hour and an hour and half from me respectively the last two weekends in September. Especially if I have an interest in doing a cert one day, this seems like a worthwhile venture, yes?

Steve- yes, I have a bilateral strength disparity (doesn't everyone to some degree?), this is one of my reasons for embarking on hard style kettlebell training, to fix this! The discrepancy is in my lat/lower trap. I know this because after some dedicated pull-up training earlier this year, I had a tender spot right around the inferior angle of the scapula on that side. Mildly bothersome, a little soft tissue massage with a lacrosse ball, an adjustment and it was pretty much all good. Especially as a rock climber, I tend to trust my right arm more when I need to hang out by one arm to get gear in, so I've accidentally ingrained the discrepancy. I also have a terrible habit of laying on my left side for sleeping, but it leaves me with a not-insignificant time in which I am effectively curving my spine to the left and over stretching those muscles on the left. I am actively working on breaking this habit.

I'm working on some videos now if I can get them to finally upload!
 
Christa, the bilateral strength disparity - my, I feel educated saying that! :) - is what an FMS person should have a look at. You want to know if it's just a strength disparity which, although possible, isn't what we find much. We tend to find patterning issues, things that, with proper coaching, we can get you to fix and often quickly, and then we can layer some strength on top of that and, lo and behold, you're on the way to fixing your disparity by starting at the place in all this that comes before building strength.

-S-
 
Steve,
If it makes you feel any better, I am working my way through Gray Cook's magnum opus on the subject as we speak.:D I anticipate that layered with my professional knowledge & experience as well as kinesthetic sense, I will have a reasonable self-diagnosis of any potential pattern issues before its conclusion. :cool:
 
Christa, I agree w/ Kettlebellelephant... (what a cool avatar to go with the username!!). I'm thinking if you have time to change the order to a 16kg, you will get more use out of that. You can use dumbbells or a shoe or a half-full bottle of water to pattern the move until you're comfortable with the 12kg or more.

You have so much knowledge to apply... Try to quiet your mind as you practice... It will probably flow easier and better! Good luck :)
 
Christa,

My own rule of thumb for progressing in the get-up was NEVER to push-it to the edge. My view is that it is not a movement that is forgiving of a failed rep. I completely relate to the fear that Kettlebellephant talks about.

With that in mind I see nothing wrong with perfecting the movement with a shoe then progressing through 8 kg and then on to 12 kg when you feel 100% happy. You can always find a future use for an 8 kg kettlebell - bottom-up presses, cool door stop etc
 
Thanks everyone for the time to read through my query and tap out a reply! In attempting to capture film footage as per Steve's request, I had to practice many times with a shoe. (Whoever came up with that idea is genius.) The shoe weighs almost nothing, but you must move 'quietly' underneath of it or the feedback is immediate! After drilling that this morning, I thought I would give my TGUs a try with the 12 kg bell that I have. It felt solid on each side, so after a good rest period, I decide to try it again. Lo and behold, I was able to do 5 on each side with the 12kg! (Did take long rest breaks in between to make sure I was fresh and had good technique for each). Once I was moving quietly under the bell in the pattern learned from the shoe, there wasn't so much of the 'wobble' that was causing problems before. I wouldn't say I 'own' the TGU at 12kg, but I definitely feel like I now have the confidence to work at that weight until I do feel like I own it. 10 x 10 swings this mornings felt way too easy and I know I did them inside of 5 minutes, so I think I'm going to cancel the 8kg bell and get a 16kg. :D And do shoe drills on the TGU 2x/day to make sure I'm 'grooving' the pattern correctly. :p
 
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Christa - Great job on staying with it! Just remember you can vary the weight from day to day, if you select to get the 16kg then you can do 1/2 GU's until you feel solid with that weight to move through each step. If you do however end up with the 8kg, don't feel like it will be a door stop as you can return to it as you begin learning Bottoms up drills. Bottoms up GU's can be another advancement but again begin light. Each bells has its benefit.

Hope to see you at one of our courses or certifications soon.

Best of Luck on your new KB journey.
Karen
 
Hi Christa,
Your progress and awareness sound great! As far as an 8kg collecting dust, I'd say that practicing some bottoms up grip work will breathe life into it for some time to come...as well as TGUs with presses at every stage (I call that Stairway to Hell). I am a huge believer on working every stages and gaining mastery of the transitions between them. In fact, many of my students find the TGDown easier than the TGUp...so consider pressing it up and working the down portion only. Once that gets comfortable, work the up phase (in segments as needed). Then put the two together. I like to train my 'own it' weight at least 3x per week and a lighter one for warm ups and movement preparation (very slow, controlled flow).

It'll come with patient practice. Like the snatch, the TGU cannot be forced. It develops from mindful practice.

Martine Kerr, SFG TL
Owner, Kult Fitness, Dubai, UAE
 
Christa,
regarding the 8Kg bell. I don't know if you ever plan to use Kettlebell Muscle or More Kettlebell Muscle by Geoff Neupert. From what i've read even guys who can press 32s for a couple of reps are only using double 16s for his complexes.
So even when you hit a 20 or 24kg press some time in the future, using the 8s for those complexes can still be challenging.
 
Thank you all!

I did cancel the 8kg bell order and got a 16kg. I know I will get a lot of use out of the 16kg bell, so I felt better about acquiring it. As for the 8kg, I figure if there does come a point that I need it, I will get it.

I've also sent some video of my swings & get-ups to a SFG and got some feedback. Most of the feedback was that I am solid in these. I did another 'set' of five reps of TGUs with 12kg this morning with little problem, so again, I think my initial problem was not doing the TGU with the proper technique instead of not being strong enough to do it properly with the 12kg bell.
 
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