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Bodyweight Planche + Front lever training

Ah yes, the dragon flag! It certainly presents a formidable challenge for me (as do many leg lift variations).
Of all the things you're discussing, I think the Dragon Flag might be the easiest. You could work on that, e.g., go for really strict form, work on reps, work on starting from the bottom (a favorite way of mine to make it more difficult), work on having really straight arms throughout.

My own efforts - my form could certainly be stricter. I give up my glute tightness as I near the top on the way up, better on the way down (which is, of course, easier).





-S-
 
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How is your back lever? I thought the general recommendation was to get back lever first, then front lever. By Steven Low, if I remember correctly, but I am not entirely sure.
 
Of all the things you're discussing, I think the Dragon Flag might be the easiest. You could work on that, e.g., go for really strict form, work on reps, work on starting from the bottom (a favorite way of mine to make it more difficult), work on having really straight arms throughout.

My own efforts - my form could certainly be stricter. I give up my glute tightness as I near the top on the way up, better on the way down (which is, of course, easier).




-S-

Very impressive!

Honestly, I can’t even complete a single repetition of a dragon flag, whether lowering first or starting from the bottom…my legs just drop like a piano at a point.

Is there any suggestions for regressions or tips for this move?
 
How is your back lever? I thought the general recommendation was to get back lever first, then front lever. By Steven Low, if I remember correctly, but I am not entirely sure.
Actually have never practiced it…I’m wary of my shoulder, which has been through some trauma, going into this position.
 
Coach Somner seems to say here that back lever is not necessary for front lever work. Reading a bit between the lines, he seems to say that if you want both skills, choose back lever first, but if you're after front lever, choosing it is fine


On the bodyweight fitness subreddit, there are a lot of guys who think achieving back lever will help them achieve planche, front lever, or both. Nobody though has offered any research or even anecdotal evidence backing up this belief. There have been others who argue the opposite - if you get full planche and full front lever, you'll get full back lever for free - and their argument is based on their own experience, and those of people they've coached.
 
Is there any suggestions for regressions or tips for this move?

Yes! I don't think it has to be complicated. Get into the starting position, legs up, and lower just a little then come back to the top again. Great if you could do that and post a video. From there, it's a matter of adding reps and gradually allowing your legs to come down lower and lower.

Tip: Not piking/bending at the waist is all about your glutes. You want to maximally tighten both abs and glutes and try to get your entire body to move as a single, plank-like unit.

-S-
 
Yes! I don't think it has to be complicated. Get into the starting position, legs up, and lower just a little then come back to the top again. Great if you could do that and post a video. From there, it's a matter of adding reps and gradually allowing your legs to come down lower and lower.

Tip: Not piking/bending at the waist is all about your glutes. You want to maximally tighten both abs and glutes and try to get your entire body to move as a single, plank-like unit.

-S-
Ah! It seems so obvious PMT (Progressive Movement Training) would be the way. I’ve attempted “tucked” flags or similar leverage variations but the negative seems to make most sense .

I will attempt this and post tomorrow!

Thanks for the tips!
 
Coach Somner seems to say here that back lever is not necessary for front lever work. Reading a bit between the lines, he seems to say that if you want both skills, choose back lever first, but if you're after front lever, choosing it is fine


On the bodyweight fitness subreddit, there are a lot of guys who think achieving back lever will help them achieve planche, front lever, or both. Nobody though has offered any research or even anecdotal evidence backing up this belief. There have been others who argue the opposite - if you get full planche and full front lever, you'll get full back lever for free - and their argument is based on their own experience, and those of people they've coached.
I’ve heard back lever is easiest to achieve, although I’m not sure I could explain why…
 
I’ve heard back lever is easiest to achieve, although I’m not sure I could explain why…

It does not require as much abdominal strength. There is also less demand on upper back pulling strength.

I searched for Steven Low's thoughts on back lever and all I can find is his comment that people practice back lever because they want to, so he offers instruction accordingly. But I could not find any statement about back lever being a requirement for achieving front lever or planche.

I worked on back lever a bit, then dropped it after reading multiple reports of people achieving it "for free". By getting front lever and planche, back lever skill was automatic for them. But it does not seem to work the other way.
 
Dragon flag practice

Attempt 1

Attempt 2

Attempt 3

So all Dragon flags yielded quite similar attempts, but you can see what I mean. I just worked on controlling the negative as far as I can go.

Also, regresses my planche holds to frog stands which actually present a challenge even comparative to the advanced tuck, as my legs are actually further back and the hollow position more pronounced. Feel it even more in my wrists.
 
@Philippe Geoffrion, good efforts. I would like to see you come back up and not just work on the negative. Try to move only far enough down that you feel you are in a plank, then come back up, or at least try to hold that position for a few seconds.

-S-
 
I, too, am returning to calisthenics stuff again.

One thing no one has mentioned is the use of bands. Get some resistance bands and use them to practice the positions you're working towards. This will allow you to feel where your body needs to be in space. Lots of calisthenics trainers recommend using bands for levers and planche work. It's simple enough to train planche pushup progressions with a band suspended above you, then practice bent arm planche holds to work the range that the band helps the most in. You can do the same with levers.

As for tuck => adv tuck plance: have you tried elevated leans with your feet on something the appropriate height? You might be shocked at how hard they can be. Just don't use you feet to "pull" yourself back. Let your shoulders do all the work. And don't pike the hips or let them rise too high! Just like piking in the lever, piking during planche is your body's way of trying to make the move easier. If you have buddies at the park, you might ask them if they would hold your feet/spot you in planche training as well.

Another tip not mentioned is something we should all be familiar with in SF methodology: train your strength, don't test it. The difficulty in calisthenics moves is the leaps in intensity. Thus, people often fall into the trap of training at their "max" every session. Something to try is varying your training. That is, do banded work one day, short holds close to/at your max progression one day, and then leans and easy progressions on another day.

One thing I haven't seen in the thread unless I missed it is: how often are you training these moves? GtG sounds good on paper for it, but not if the holds you're using are too intense. GtG is supposed to be "around 50%" right?

Lastly, while I've never gotten past a couple advanced tuck planche holds and a straddle front lever, I have made the following observation: it seems like all the folks you see online who are really strong were very singular-minded about acheiving these goals, that is, a lot of them aren't mixing training modalities, and stay very consistent over a long period of time.

Hope some of that helps!
 
I, too, am returning to calisthenics stuff again.

One thing no one has mentioned is the use of bands. Get some resistance bands and use them to practice the positions you're working towards. This will allow you to feel where your body needs to be in space. Lots of calisthenics trainers recommend using bands for levers and planche work. It's simple enough to train planche pushup progressions with a band suspended above you, then practice bent arm planche holds to work the range that the band helps the most in. You can do the same with levers.

As for tuck => adv tuck plance: have you tried elevated leans with your feet on something the appropriate height? You might be shocked at how hard they can be. Just don't use you feet to "pull" yourself back. Let your shoulders do all the work. And don't pike the hips or let them rise too high! Just like piking in the lever, piking during planche is your body's way of trying to make the move easier. If you have buddies at the park, you might ask them if they would hold your feet/spot you in planche training as well.

Another tip not mentioned is something we should all be familiar with in SF methodology: train your strength, don't test it. The difficulty in calisthenics moves is the leaps in intensity. Thus, people often fall into the trap of training at their "max" every session. Something to try is varying your training. That is, do banded work one day, short holds close to/at your max progression one day, and then leans and easy progressions on another day.

One thing I haven't seen in the thread unless I missed it is: how often are you training these moves? GtG sounds good on paper for it, but not if the holds you're using are too intense. GtG is supposed to be "around 50%" right?

Lastly, while I've never gotten past a couple advanced tuck planche holds and a straddle front lever, I have made the following observation: it seems like all the folks you see online who are really strong were very singular-minded about acheiving these goals, that is, a lot of them aren't mixing training modalities, and stay very consistent over a long period of time.

Hope some of that helps!
Great observations and feedback!

Yes, by GTG, I mean mostly “leaning into positions” momentarily where tension is quite high, than folding back out to starting, as if each “hold” is a minor rep. Other days, I’ll use the easier holds and go for longer.

Bands, im sure are quite useful. However, I’ve had issues with placement ie having a bar at the right height to anchor/actually getting into the position with the band around my waist. It was easier with FL, as I was able to do some decent full FL holds with a pretty light band.

I haven’t tried the leans you’ve suggested yet in visualizing, they seem quite tough!

My goals are all calisthenics based for now, at the expense of my barbell strength, which is put on the back burner for the time being. However, I’ve found great improvements from calisthenics training to barbell movements.

At the moment, my goals are centered around calisthenics, as that’s what’s available to me. My OAP advanced nicely over the years and my pistol strength is solid, yet doing unweighted pistols on my left leg has always presented s challenge, so we’re working to balance that out.

For the longest time, I’ve wanted to achieve the planche, FL and OAC. For the time being, they seem appropriate to pursue since at the moment, the world is my gym.
 
@Philippe Geoffrion I am sure you have heard the now-legendary anecdotes about Coach Sommer's athletes, having never touched barbells, being able to lift quite heavy (albeit with "poor form") when introduced to them :)

To add to my comments about elevated planche leans: something good about them is that you can get the hips level with your torso, something not easy to do just by leaning on the floor or doing tuck planche. Like bands, it can show you where you ought to be in space. If you manage to do an elevated planche lean with hands under hips, and straight hips (without face-planting ;) ) you might be surprised at how far forward it really is. It's fun and humbling at the same time!
 
Hello @Philippe Geoffrion

I never worked on the planche, but I got the Front Lever (FL) and Dragon Flag (DF). I guess there are tons of progressions for both moves, but there is what I did:
Front lever:
- Chest pull ups: basically you arch a lot (sort of "banana") and the top position is below your chest. This will work a lot your upper back and upper pulling muscles

What follows is specific for FL, and follows a progression
- Negative tuck planche : (you do a leg raise (knees on your torso), then you put yourself in upside down position (your feet will point to the sky) and you slowly get back to the initial position (as slowly as you can). At some point, you will be able to stop a few seconds while parallel to the ground
- Once you can maintain a tuck planche for 5s, you can do sets of 5-10s. For instance, 5 sets of 5 to 10s with ample rest in between.
- Then, you'll move to "advanced" tuck planche and repeats the two previous steps. An advanced tuck planche is when your thigh are at a 90° angle from your hips.

Then, you'll do a "one leg extended while other is fully tucked" and repeat the two first steps described earlier. Your upper back will really be taxed. Then you can shoot for 3 or 3 sets per side only.

Then, you'll do "one leg extended while the other is tukced at 90°) and repeat the two first steps.

Then, you can work on the straddle FL. You put yourself upside down. Then you slowly lower yourself. At some point, you will be able to stop at parallel level. One here, 5 sets of 5-10s. As time goest by, you'll do it with legs more and more aligned with your upper body.

Assistance moves:
- Heavy barbell rows (sets of 5, heavy).
- Tuck rows (once you get this move).
- Straight arms top down with a resistance band (fixed to a pull up bar) (sets of 5, heavy).

Technique points:
- Always work with :
--> shoulder depression
--> straight arm
--> engaged scapula

Core work:
- Dragon flag progression, one arm one leg planche, extended one arm one leg planche

Dragon flag progession is easy as it follows the exact same logic than the front lever: (tuck, advanced tuck, one leg, etc...)

Hope that helps but feel free to ask

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
@Philippe Geoffrion I am sure you have heard the now-legendary anecdotes about Coach Sommer's athletes, having never touched barbells, being able to lift quite heavy (albeit with "poor form") when introduced to them :)

To add to my comments about elevated planche leans: something good about them is that you can get the hips level with your torso, something not easy to do just by leaning on the floor or doing tuck planche. Like bands, it can show you where you ought to be in space. If you manage to do an elevated planche lean with hands under hips, and straight hips (without face-planting ;) ) you might be surprised at how far forward it really is. It's fun and humbling at the same time!
I think I’ll start incorporating these.

Yes, I certainly have heard of Sommer’s athletes claims. I’m sure they’re valid, albeit probably not completely typical of those able to planche. I’ve seen some high level calisthenics athletes perform pretty modest, not weak mind you, barbell lifts. However, this is to be expected…

Yes, getting into the tuck is work in itself….
 
Hello @Philippe Geoffrion

I never worked on the planche, but I got the Front Lever (FL) and Dragon Flag (DF). I guess there are tons of progressions for both moves, but there is what I did:
Front lever:
- Chest pull ups: basically you arch a lot (sort of "banana") and the top position is below your chest. This will work a lot your upper back and upper pulling muscles

What follows is specific for FL, and follows a progression
- Negative tuck planche : (you do a leg raise (knees on your torso), then you put yourself in upside down position (your feet will point to the sky) and you slowly get back to the initial position (as slowly as you can). At some point, you will be able to stop a few seconds while parallel to the ground
- Once you can maintain a tuck planche for 5s, you can do sets of 5-10s. For instance, 5 sets of 5 to 10s with ample rest in between.
- Then, you'll move to "advanced" tuck planche and repeats the two previous steps. An advanced tuck planche is when your thigh are at a 90° angle from your hips.

Then, you'll do a "one leg extended while other is fully tucked" and repeat the two first steps described earlier. Your upper back will really be taxed. Then you can shoot for 3 or 3 sets per side only.

Then, you'll do "one leg extended while the other is tukced at 90°) and repeat the two first steps.

Then, you can work on the straddle FL. You put yourself upside down. Then you slowly lower yourself. At some point, you will be able to stop at parallel level. One here, 5 sets of 5-10s. As time goest by, you'll do it with legs more and more aligned with your upper body.

Assistance moves:
- Heavy barbell rows (sets of 5, heavy).
- Tuck rows (once you get this move).
- Straight arms top down with a resistance band (fixed to a pull up bar) (sets of 5, heavy).

Technique points:
- Always work with :
--> shoulder depression
--> straight arm
--> engaged scapula

Core work:
- Dragon flag progression, one arm one leg planche, extended one arm one leg planche

Dragon flag progession is easy as it follows the exact same logic than the front lever: (tuck, advanced tuck, one leg, etc...)

Hope that helps but feel free to ask

Kind regards,

Pet'
Great thorough post @pet' i always appreciate your fastidious analysis’ of calisthenics.

As we’ve mentioned earlier, I train the OAC concurrently, using the finger assist method and that the two are complimentary in developing one another. I think this is closer than the FL rn honestly.

I think my lacking is mostly in midsection, hip stability for FL with many other weaknesses in the planche…

Also, I’ve been posted videos of Dragon Flags attempts as reviewed by @Steve Freides so here are today’s.



That is how far I can lower and raise without collapsing ATM! Should I just slowly work the partial reps with complete extension further and further down over time?
 
Hello @Philippe Geoffrion

My pleasure !

Regarding DF, at some points, that's almost more of a back exercise than a core exercise.

In all cases, when you perform it, squeezing the glutes will irradiate your core and protect your lower back. As you have a straight position on your video, you do it right.

To gain ROM, you have several options:
- Slow negative. Go as low as you can with control. As soon as you feel you'll give up, switch to the straddle or 1 leg version and keep going. This will build time under tension using some sort of "drop set". This will work for sure, but it is very long. Besides, this strategy will force you to dedicate some time (not a lot, I admit) to train the beginning of the move (from the ground).
- Progressively harder variations, as I have mentioned in the previous post. That's what I used. All progressions start from the ground
- Do not hesitate to work the lowest (and hardest) portion of the ROM. For instance, start from a 45° using either the straddle or 1 leg variation, then control the negative portion. That way, you can exert force while being fresh, during the hardest portion.

If you do the 3rd option, I'd also build from the ground to 45° using progressively harder variation (tuck (with back on the floor) to tuck on vertical position, for several repetitions). The beginning of the move is way harder. From a physics standpoint, lever will decrease beyond 45°

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
That is how far I can lower and raise without collapsing ATM! Should I just slowly work the partial reps with complete extension further and further down over time?

Excellent - that's what you should do, exactly that. Perseverance furthers. From my own training life, I do a single Skin The Cat on the rings every day. I've been at it for weeks, and I'm not ready to do more than one because I keep improving how far I can get around with my single rep. Eventually, I'll do more. I probably could do another one or two now without getting off the reps, but as we know from S&S and other programs, persevering with something until it starts to get easier for you is a surefire path to improvement. You keep doing that partial Dragon Flags - your depth is fine, your reps are fine - and I'll keep doing my StC singles, and we will both see improvements as time goes on.

-S-
 
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