Plant Protein vs. Animal Protein for Muscle Growth and Performance

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
Notes below.

Kenny Croxdale


Plant Protein vs. Animal Protein for Muscle Growth and Performance

Charlie Ottinger, Author at Ketogenic.com

What Drives Muscle Protein Synthesis?

Leucine appears to be the most important EAA for stimulating muscle protein synthesis

Protein Quality, Kinetics, and Anabolic Potential
... Beef has been shown to be more effective than soy protein at increasing protein synthesis levels.


Plant Protein vs Animal Protein: EAAs, Protein Kinetics, Digestibility, and
Quality

...Animal-based proteins consisteantly have higher EAA contents and higher leucine contents.


Animal proteins consistently score higher than plant proteins.

Milk proteins have been shown to be more effective for lean mass gains compared to soy proteins

...Plant protein can be beneficial for growth, there’s just one caveat: you have to eat more!
Plant Protein vs Animal Protein: Conclusions

...Animal proteins are more effective for promoting protein synthesis than plant proteins. But! All you have to do to even the playing field is eat greater amounts of plant protein.

...It’s very easy to under-consume protein during a plant-based diet which can reduce overall lean mass, strength, and quality of life

...A plant-based diet is not optimal for muscle growth.

Growth can absolutely be achieved on a plant-based diet, however, specific steps must be taken to maximize growth


 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
Personally, whenever I eat a lot of plant protein, I get clear problems with digestion. I'm not sure how much I could improve my capability to handle it, but I've never seen it worth the try.,
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
Leucine, methionine, IGF1, TOR, these are all hot topics in cancer research. Factors that help muscles grow may also help other things grow.

There is research that suggests the longevity benefits of calorie restriction can be found with protein restriction, and more specifically, leucine.

Seems like "quality" in reference to protein may vary a bit by perspective. Clearly, tons more research to be done here. Individuals will have to weigh the relative risks and benefits, depending on one's goals and priorities,
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
Leucine, methionine, IGF1, TOR, these are all hot topics in cancer research. Factors that help muscles grow may also help other things grow.
Growth Factors

Yes, these factors may increase other things to grow. However, there a downside with decreased protein intake (specifically Leucine), maintaining a calorie restricted diet, etc.

There is research that suggests the longevity benefits of calorie restriction can be found with protein restriction, and more specifically, leucine.
The Issue

One reasons for a decline in life span is loss of muscle mass.

mTOR and exercise maintain and can increase muscle mass in a well written and executed diet with enough calories.

Restriction of calories, protein restriction and limiting Leucine (obtaining the right dosage at a meal) leads to sarcopenia (loss of muscle mass).

It's somewhat like am individual taking medications. The medication resolves on issue only to produce another health issue.

The question then becomes, Is if the trade off is worth it? As you stated, ..." Risks and benefits..."

Healthy individual need to consume adequate amount of protein, specifically Leucine, as well as calories at least maintain muscle mass and other health aspects.

mTor Signaling & Cell Growth: Targeting via Ketogenic Diet & Fasting || #109 ft. Dr. Keith Baar

Baar does a nice job or examining mTOR role in health.

A Simple Answer To A Complex Question

One of the main issues is most people want a simple "Yes" or "No" or at most a one sentence answer to a complex question.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
A Simple Answer To A Complex Question

One of the main issues is most people want a simple "Yes" or "No" or at most a one sentence answer to a complex question.

Kenny Croxdale
Exactly. There's a lot more work needed here, but folks want a simple "DO THIS!" answer, like with smoking. Not yet. So which side do you err on? For me, for now, I'll go with Longo and low protein, plant based. I may change my mind later.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
For me, for now, I'll go with Longo and low protein, plant based.
Longo

Longo's a smart guy. He can be a bit bunt and to the point, which I like.

Plant based protein can work but requires more work to ensure you obtain enough to maintain muscle mass and other health issues.

That is one of the downsides of individual who obtain their protein from plants. The majority don't know enough or care enough to make it work.

The majority of American, no matter what diet they are on, are in the same category. Dr Donald Layman research showed that the majority of American only have one meal a day (dinner) that contained enough protein (Leucine).

That is one of the reasons the majority of American lose muscle mass over time.

Fast Mimicking Diet

Longo's Fast Mimicking Diet doesn't make sense.

It is essentially a low calorie deficit diet.

The Ketogenic Diet come closer to replicating Fasting.

Kenny Croxdale
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
Plant based protein can work but requires more work to ensure you obtain enough to maintain muscle mass and other health issues.
Not in my experience. Following Jeff Novick's recommendations and using the CRON-O-Meter to check, it was easy. My regular, simple meals work just fine. In fact, meal prep became easier than when I followed an omni diet.

That is one of the downsides of individual who obtain their protein from plants. The majority don't know enough or care enough to make it work.
This applies equally to omnis. More so, really, since veg*ns are such a small percentage of the population.
Fast Mimicking Diet

Longo's Fast Mimicking Diet doesn't make sense.

It is essentially a low calorie deficit diet.

The Ketogenic Diet come closer to replicating Fasting.

Kenny Croxdale
It made perfect sense to me. I won't try to argue for it, or how it differs from a ketogenic diet. I'll let Longo do that.
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
@Oscar

I haven't measured and tracked things in a year or so. I may start again after the New Year, if I can separate myself from my family's eating. It's a pain at first, but CRON-O-Meter allows you to save recipes. So if you take the time to measure a few of your favorites and rotate through them, it gets easier. A small digital kitchen scale is essential.

I don't aim for specific macros. I do my best to follow the principles of Dr. McDougall as taught by Jeff Novice RD. WFPB, no oil, low calorie density.

PM me with more specific questions and I can try to give some examples.
 

kenaces

Level 6 Valued Member
Longo

The majority of American, no matter what diet they are on, are in the same category. Dr Donald Layman research showed that the majority of American only have one meal a day (dinner) that contained enough protein (Leucine).

That is one of the reasons the majority of American lose muscle mass over time.

Kenny Croxdale
What is this based on? I though sarcopenia was mostly aging and inactivity related, especially given American's average protein consumption has risen(along with total calorie intake).

I don't recall exact numbers but I am pretty sure I have read that Americans exceed the USDA protein recommendations buy a very large amount.

Thoughts?
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
What is this based on? I though sarcopenia was mostly aging and inactivity related,
Multiple Factors

Aging and inactivity are part of the issue.

However, another major factor is, as Dr Donald Laymen's presentation noted, the majority of American are not consuming enough protein (specifically Leucine) at breakfast and lunch to trigger mTOR.

mTOR vital to maintaining and increasing muscle mass.

The only meal that American consume enough protein in is dinner.

The Time Factor

Due to not enough protein (Leucine), for breakfast and lunch, your muscle are literally starved to death overtime.

It's like not having enough money to pay your bills. Over time, you saving account (muscle mass in this case shrinks).

I don't recall exact numbers but I am pretty sure I have read that Americans exceed the USDA protein recommendations buy a very large amount.
Show Me The Numbers

Provide the number on that rather than guessing, please

Kenny Croxdale
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
A quick google search shows that American protein intake to be above 1g/kg. The RDA is 0.8, which already has a safety factor, i.e. rounding has been up, not down. Furthermore, that number is based on lean body mass, and most Americans are overweight. Americans get more than enough protein, with a possible exception for the elderly.

I have seen a study showing kidney patients who must follow a low protein diet to preserve kidney function building muscle at 0.6g/kg.

Longo recommends around 0.7g/kg for longevity, with slightly more after age 65.
 

LukeV

Level 5 Valued Member
Australia's premier scientific organisation, the Commonwealth Scientific Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO), released its own nutritional guidelines that differed sharply from those of health authorities on protein consumption. The CSIRO guidelines are 50 to 100% higher on protein. And while their emphasis is weight management there are plenty of references to muscle in their report with conclusions that people should eat at least 25-30g of protein per main meal (with total consumption based on bodyweight). Australians eat a lot of meat by international standards but the CSIRO research showed that average protein consumption against their standard was too low and also that Australians only consumed enough protein in their evening meal, with breakfast and lunch below the 25-30g protein recommended.

https://www.csiro.au/~/media/News-r...hash=02FEC80B4D2219C3AD4576E366DA208E3B747880
 

kenaces

Level 6 Valued Member
Multiple Factors

Aging and inactivity are part of the issue.

However, another major factor is, as Dr Donald Laymen's presentation noted, the majority of American are not consuming enough protein (specifically Leucine) at breakfast and lunch to trigger mTOR.

mTOR vital to maintaining and increasing muscle mass.

The only meal that American consume enough protein in is dinner.

The Time Factor

Due to not enough protein (Leucine), for breakfast and lunch, your muscle are literally starved to death overtime.

It's like not having enough money to pay your bills. Over time, you saving account (muscle mass in this case shrinks).



Show Me The Numbers

Provide the number on that rather than guessing, please

Kenny Croxdale
USDA RDA for men is 56g of protein.

First google result says the average protein consumption is 91g(this jives with my recollection) -https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/87/5/1554S/4650421

My first reaction is to really doubt that sarcopenia is due to underconsumption as we are largely fat and overfed here in the US. Some amount of sarcopenia is of course just due to the normal aging process, and the above-mentioned inactivity.

But I will keep an open mind that something is going on with low luciene levels and listen to the podcast you linked :)
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
USDA RDA for men is 56g of protein.
Thanks for posting the article.

The USDA RDA

The information this organization, as with other government nutrition agencies provides is out dated; as demonstrated by their recommendation for men consuming 56 gram.

Fifty-six gram of protein for men is the minimal amount or protein necessary to survive vs thriving and doing well.

Protein Serving Per Meal

Research by Dr Layne Norton and Donald Layman determined that approximately 30 gram of quality protein per mean needs to be consumed to maintain muscle mass or increase muscle mass.

To reiterate, Layman's research presentation found that the majority of Americans don't consume enough protein at breakfast and lunch to maintain muscle mass, let along increase it.

Dinner is the only meal that 30 gram plus of protein was consumed to maintain muscle mass or increase it. Thus, the majority of individuals are inadvertently on a "Protein Restriction Diet Plan". In other word, they don't know what they are eating, nor do that really care.

The importance of consuming 30 gram of a quality protein has to do with...

Leucine Per Meal

There is abundant online research information on this.

1) Young Individuals: The research shows that younger individual need approximately 2.5 gram of Leucine per meal to stimulate mTOR (promote muscle growth).

Approximately 30 gram of quality protein will provide 2.5 gram of Leucine.

2) Older Individuals: Research shows that over 3.0 gram of Leucine is needed per meal to stimulate mTOR (stimulate muscle growth).

That means older individuals need about 38 gram of quality protein to stimulate mTOR (stimulate muscle growth)

Older individuals need more protein because their system is not as efficient as a younger individual.

56 Gram Of Protein A Day

Based on the above information, the USDA RDA's 56 gram recommendation demonstrates that individuals are only consuming one meal a day with enough protein. Overtime, it leads to a decrease in muscle mass.

My first reaction is to really doubt that sarcopenia is due to underconsumption as we are largely fat and overfed here in the US. Some amount of sarcopenia is of course just due to the normal aging process, and the above-mentioned inactivity.
Sarcopenia

1) Aging: Yes, sarcopenia is a part of the aging process.

2) Exercise: Yes, sarcopenia is partly due to inactivity.

Research has demonstrated that exercise stimulates mTOR; maintaining and/or increasing muscle mass.

3) Leucine/Protein Intake: The amount of protein (Leucine) consumed per meal is a major factor in determining if you are losing, maintaining or increasing muscle mass.

Fat And Overfed

Being fat and overfed isn't driven by high protein intake.

It is driven by junk foods that are high in carbohydrates that are combined with high fat; over consumption of calories. Research has demonstrated that the combination of high carbohydrate/high fat food is a lethal cocktail.

It is driven by constant eating from the time they get up in the morning until they go to bed.

Same amount of protein at every meal gives optimal muscle synthesis

Most people cram most of their daily protein into their evening meal, and consume relatively little protein at breakfast and lunch. If all three meals contain similar amounts of protein, the synthesis of muscle tissue increases by a quarter, according to a study published in the Journal of Nutrition.

...given breakfast containing 30 g protein, lunch with 30 g and an evening meal with 30 g protein every day for a week. So with the more evenly distributed protein the subjects also consumed 90 g a day.

Conclusion

"The consumption of a moderate amount of high quality protein 3 times a day provides a more effective means of stimulating 24-h muscle protein synthesis than the common practice of skewing protein intake toward the evening meal"...

Kenny Croxdale
 
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North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
I just completed a slow bulk over three-4 months, put on 15 lbs and was able to take my belt in one hole, this at age 52 with no supplements other than isolated whey and some Ashwganda herb.

Crucial to this I believe was 4 protein meals of at least 40g per sitting. On a non-protein supplemented diet I was never able to get above 195, so I added 10lbs to that previous best. This was a blend of animal and plant proteins - I drink a lot of soy milk.

Not that gaining a lot of mass is best for health, but my experience supports a lot of the research to a T:
- more protein as you get older
- 30-40g per meal
- space out the meals by about 4 hours.
 

Oscar

Level 6 Valued Member
To reiterate, Layman's research presentation found that the majority of Americans don't consume enough protein at breakfast and lunch to maintain muscle mass, let along increase it.
A doubt I have is how many meals per day are required to have that quantity of protein.

It appears that only one will make it difficult to grow a big muscular body, but it is enough to have slender muscular body, like Pavel or Ori Hofmekler.

3 meals with lots of protein is clearly enough or more than enough, proven by Leangains. So I would say that 4 meals with 30 grams of protein is not a must.

So maybe the sweet spot is between 1and 3 protein meals? 1 on the light slender side, like Pavel, and 3 on the heavy muscular side.

@North Coast Miller your thoughts also?
 
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North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
A doubt I have is how many meals per day are required to have that quantity of protein.

It appears that only one will make it difficult to grow a big muscular body, but it is enough to have slender muscular body, like Pavel or Ori Hofmekler.

3 meals with lots of protein is clearly enough or more than enough, proven by Leangains. So I would say that 4 meals with 30 grams of protein is not a must.

So maybe the sweet spot is between 1and 3 protein meals? 1 on the light slender side, like Pavel, and 3 on the heavy muscular side.

@North Coast Miller your thoughts also?
It doesn't take a lot of protein to maintain a lean build, say within 10lbs of your 50%BMI. The heavier lean weight you get from this midpoint, the more protein you will need.

As an example, at 5' 10" I'd be right around 175lbs. To put 30lbs lean on top of that is a lot of mass. One big meal/day isn't going to cut it, but just to maintain that 175 is very easy.
 
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