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Old Forum PM discussion

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HUNTER1313

Level 6 Valued Member
I was bored the other day so jumped on the DD forums. There was a thread about the PM. Basically saying as its written in ETK its really only good for newbies and deconditioned people. That five minutes of getups doest really constitute a workout. But Pavel has said five minutes is just a guideline. And wouldnt the getup days be a good day to practice the other movements? I personally think its a foolproof plan and if you wanted, combine the tgu and swings. But for now since I workout in the morning right before work, as its written works for me.
 

Rickard

Level 4 Valued Member
I saw it too. Didn't read much into it. People are behind it when Pavel was there and isn't now. The program hasn't changed but the people. Would however make it hard for me to trust those people, but thats a personal thing.
 

Jason Paul

Level 3 Valued Member
What I’ve been doing lately is having TGU days and swing days, but really doing both in every workout.

Sun & Wed – TGU days

Up to 10 TGUs per side

100 Swings

Mon & Thurs – Swing days

2-3 TGUs per side

200-250 Swings

I started this in an effort to do more swings. I’ve seen lots of programs lately that include daily and/or high-volume swings. I figured if I was going to be doing more swings, I should also do more TGUs. But since the TGU is more of a strength grind, I figured I shouldn’t overdo it – so I’m only doing 2-3 on the “off” days.

All of the swings are done with the 24kg – which, for me – is pushing it at 200 reps. I’m considering doing snatches with the 16kg on Sundays, but won’t do as many reps as I would swings.

The TGUs starts with the 24kg, which is heavy for me – 2-3 reps max (safely), per side right now. After I do that 2-3 reps, I move to the 16kg for 5 reps. The idea is to push the reps up to 5 with the 24kg (and still following with 5 on the 16kg). Then if I’m ready, get a 32kg and start with 1 rep, then 5 with the 24kg, building the same way up to 5 reps with the 32kg. That 5 reps may bump up to 7-8 (or even 10) if necessary to gain the strength to move to the 32kg.

As you can see, I’ve moved from doing timed sets to counting reps. I think either way is probably OK if you’re working out alone, and believe the point in ETK about not trying to top your reps is more about not trying to do more reps in the same amount of time (rushing it), which is unsafe. Someone will correct me if I’m wrong.
 

Bill Been

Level 6 Valued Member
Pavel's tight, concise, precise way of writing is so unusual in today's Blahblah world that people literally cannot read what is right before them. There's one guy on that thread that actually understood the PM. One. The resident Internet Warrior/shameless poo-flinger continues to nick more accomplished trainer's ideas by mining their old blog posts and re-packaging them as his own fresh new ideas and writing whole books on how to accomplish things he's never accomplished, all while gassing on about how much money he spends to stay on the cutting edge while simultaneously accusing unnamed "others" of being in it for the money, right after he got done writing an intentioanlly inflamatory BS article about pressing and shoulder physiology in order to drive hits to the website he writes for.
 

BrianCF

Level 6 Valued Member
I'll come clean and show my face.  I said it was overrated.  My opinion is it's not the end all be all for beginners.  That doesn't mean I don't respect Pavel.  I do, he's a class act and a gentleman.   I didn't start kettlebell training that way and I would consider myself if not advanced close to it in regard to kettlebell lifting.

 

 
 

josephtd8421

Level 5 Valued Member
I have been doing PM now for 4 months I started with the regular one day get ups the next swings for 12 min with active rests. When I began I could hardly use the 16kg. 4 months later I have switched over to the 5 day PM and am using the 32kg and about to move up to the 40kg. Not only has my strength increased from this and GTG everyday, I have also went from 20% body fat to 12%. Of course the GTG  and a healthy diet work but the PM has been a major factor as well. If your doing 5 get ups on each side and not sweaty mess afterwards go slower and use a heavier bell its really that simple. My goal is to stay on this program until I can do the whole thing with a beast and then move on to ROP. On top of everything I have already mentioned I picked up the 32kg and pressed it for 5 reps each side. Thats with only doing PM no snatches or presses at all. A little long winded but needed to weigh in on this topic.

Joe Dymnioski
 

Mark Blakemore

Level 3 Valued Member
I saw numerous proclaimed "advanced" karateka in JKA.  They spent countless hours training advanced technique.  However, the Senior Instructors always spent most time on simplest technique.  Inch wide mile deep in its purest.
 

Mark Blakemore

Level 3 Valued Member
I saw numerous proclaimed "advanced" karateka in JKA.  They spent countless hours training advanced technique and failing at making strong progress.  However, the Senior Instructors always spent most time on simplest technique and their technique became legendary.   Inch wide mile deep at its purest. Pavel is a genius in this area.
 

HUNTER1313

Level 6 Valued Member
Joe. So in your opinion the five day PM is the way to go? Did you find you benefited more from the five day versus the original way?
 

HUNTER1313

Level 6 Valued Member
Chris. From what I am told, you do ten getups (five per side) and one hundred swings five days a week. For what its worth, I havent seen a link or seen Pavel post the details.
 

josephtd8421

Level 5 Valued Member
I feel that I got alot of strength from the regular PM but after awhile I found my body craving just a smidgen more so when I saw the post on the 5 Day PM I had to try it. I have been seeing more strength gains from the 5 day but would not recommend just jumping right into before your ready. Remember the purpose is not to get sore and not to go to failure so I would say In my opinion the 5 day would be a progression from the original PM. Here is what I do.
5 get ups each side only timed to see improvement not to push me to go faster. I do them very slow and controlled to make each step equally important. (On days I feel good I have just started adding bent presses at the top of the get up.)

Then I set my time to 12 min and do sets of twenty swings. In between the sets of swings on my good days ill jog 30 seconds during my active rest my weaker days ill jog 1 min between sets. Ive been averaging 140 to 180 swings per exercise.

Joe Dymnioski
 

Jason Ginsberg

Level 4 Valued Member
Since the split, dragondoor will continue to try to find it's own identity; it's a little awkward for them to continue to push ETK, for instance, when they no longer have Pavel. Maybe something good will come out of it; so far to the best of my knowledge, all that's come out has been essentially more convict conditioning and neuro mass, neither of which interests me personally.

One thing that puzzles me though in that discussion, is this talk of it being "not enough". I'm no genius or champion, but I worked up to doing the pm with a 40kg, and have coached other people to get ups and swings with the beast, all by just doing the pm, and tweaking technique when needed.  It's really not that hard.  I love doing getups, but can't imagine why anyone would want to spend an hour doing them. Ditto for all this talk of training for hours and hours per day. I have other things I want to do, both movement related (bjj, judo, juggling, dancing) and not (spending time with my wife, playing music, reading, etc).

It's almost as if they're angry that people can accomplish so much in so little time; personally that's part of what drew me to Pavel's method in the first place.
 

josephtd8421

Level 5 Valued Member
I agree with you on that one my workouts haven't taken me over 30 min in along time. I feel its just hard to understand if you have not experienced it. I come from a background of 3 hour a day some times 2xs a day lifting style and when I first hear of program minimum I felt as if it would never work. Well I was wrong I have seen double the strength and lean gains from this method in a lot less time. I have also lost 26 pounds and have seen alot of density adeed to my physique in the past 4 months and never plan on looking back at my old routines.
 

m@tty

Level 1 Valued Member
I saw the other discussion and the tangent it went of on! 100 TGU's WTF!

I have been doing the program minimum for 3 months and am considering another 4 weeks with a 24 or giving the rite of passage a go!

If you read the book the program is not set in stone and can be as easy or as hard as you want I to be.  I have a 60-70 hour working week on average and don't have a lot of time so adding weight or repetitions to short sessions works for me.

Coming from an endurance background I used to train 25 hours or more most weeks and at 40 with my best years as a cyclist behind me as I just don't have time to train like I used to I was looking for a new challenge on limited time and the program minimum fits the bill perfectly.

I haven't missed a session in the last twelve weeks but if I haven't felt at my best I have reduced my number of swings and increased my active recovery if I have felt good I have increased my swings and reduced the recovery.  For the last few weeks I have been practicing cleans, presses and snatches after my swings or get ups and feel ready to start the rite of passage but the program minimum has worked so well for me I might just move up to the 24 for 4 weeks.
 

HUNTER1313

Level 6 Valued Member
I am by no means bashing DD, but it was Pavel and kettlebells that drew me there. Pavel was DD.

In regards to neuro mass, it seems alot like Ori's CFT training.

As for all  the long one to three hour TGU marathons, like everyone says, I have work, kids, and life that takes up alot of time and need short productive workouts that fit into my schedule.
 

Samuel

Level 2 Valued Member
There is one thing that I think is often lost in these discussions. Cast your mind, if you will, to the name of the program and dwell on the implications. If you come up blank, cast your eyes instead to page 71 of your copy of Enter the Kettlebell. If you have the Russian Kettlebell Challenge, you can also take a look at page 49 of that.

The program minimum is the program minimum because it is minimalist both in its programming and also in its goals - and subsequently results. To be clear, I am not saying the results will be lacklustre and essentially that the program is not effective. What I am saying is that obviously a more comprehensive, individualised program will have greater outcomes. This is, after all, why ETK has the Rite of Passage and the RKC has the Program Maximum. And there's everything outside of these books too. So anyone who says the PM is not the end-all be-all is absolutely right - because it was never designed as such. Instead it is appropriate for people who are deconditioned, short of time, don't have lofty goals, or have other training areas to focus on and just need a supplementary program. But if you want more than the PM offers, then do more than the PM. It's not that complicated.
 
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