Barbell Power Cleans As Deadlift/Squat Warm-up

[LoneRider]

Having a lot of experience with different strength programs (predominantly PttP, Greyskull LP, and Wendler 5/3/1) over the past seven years I've encountered all sorts of interesting ways to program.

The Olympic lifts or Olympic style lifts have been long recognized for their ability to create outstanding athleticism and explosiveness. I've made sure to include either the full on snatch and clean and jerk or even just the power clean in my programming since 2015.

I find that they are also complimentary to my kettlebell work (separate thing), incidentally and my kettlebell work compliments them.

A very interesting way I've seen the power clean and power snatch programmed is as a precursor to the deadlift in the Greyskull LP. That's about 5-6 singles (no set percentage of a 1RM) where one gets 3 or so reps on the heavy side.

Has anyone else managed to successfully program power cleans/snatches into their barbell programming?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Having a lot of experience with different strength programs (predominantly PttP, Greyskull LP, and Wendler 5/3/1) over the past seven years I've encountered all sorts of interesting ways to program.

The Olympic lifts or Olympic style lifts have been long recognized for their ability to create outstanding athleticism and explosiveness. I've made sure to include either the full on snatch and clean and jerk or even just the power clean in my programming since 2015.

I find that they are also complimentary to my kettlebell work (separate thing), incidentally and my kettlebell work compliments them.

Olympic Pulls and Kettlebell Swings

Olympic pull register high Power Output. Research (Dr John Garhammer/"A Review of Power Output Studies of Olympic and Powerlifting: Methodology, Performance, Prediction and Evaluation Test")

During Entire Snatch or Clean Pull Movements:
34.3 w/kg Men
21.8 w/kg Women

Second Pulls:
52.6 w/kg Men
39.2 w/kg Women

Squat and Deadlift:
12 w/kg Men
Source: "The No Deadlift, Deadlift Program"

Kettlebells elicit similar Power Output with the right amount of loading.

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation
Dr Bret Contreras

The key to ensuring the greatest Power Output is achieved and developed with a Kettlebell Swing is to preform them with a load of over 50% and up to 10o% of your body weight.

Here is the...

200 lb Body Weight Eample

If you weight 200 lbs, Kettlebell Swings need to be preformed with 100 to 200 plus pounds.

As per Contreras

Squat Style Swings with 140 lb Kettlebell produced...

2,431-2,444 Newtons of Peak Vertical Force

278-353 Newtons of Peak Horizontal Force

Squat Style means you sit back (Squat) in the movement. This method load the quads and glutes.

Hip Hinge Style with a 140 lb Kettlebell produced...

2,325-2,550 Newtons of Peak Vertical Force

499-520 Newtons of Peak Horizontal Force

Hip Hinge involve preforming the movement with only a slight bend in the knees; placing the workload more on the glutes and hamstrings.

However, few lifter have access or the money to purchase a Heavy Kettlebells.

An inexpensive alternative is the...

Hungarian Core Blaster

The cost is around $20 with pipe you can pick up at Lowes.

Contreras' article provide more information on how to make it.

I have a Hungarian Core Blaster. I've taken mine up to 180 lbs Swings. It works great.

The Benefits of Heavy Kettlebell Swings

1) The Kettlebell Swing is a much simpler movement than Olympic Movements.

It is quickly and easier to learn.

2) The Kettlebell Swing provide greater Eccentric Stretch Reflex Loading.

The backward motion elicits and develops the stretch reflex. You literally bounce out of the hole.

A very interesting way I've seen the power clean and power snatch programmed is as a precursor to the deadlift in the Greyskull LP. That's about 5-6 singles (no set percentage of a 1RM) where one gets 3 or so reps on the heavy side.

Power Cleans Before Deadlifts

Preforming a Power Movement prior to a Strength Movement programs the "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber to fire faster and hard in the following Strength Movement

Thus, your method of Power Cleans before Deadlifts is an effective method.

Another effective method is...

Post-Activation Training, PAP

This method Super Sets a Strength Movement with a Power and/or Speed Movement. Two common term for PAP are Complex Training and Contrast Training.

"Super Sets" of Strength and Power are preformed by...

1) Preforming a Strength Movement, such as the Deadlift first.

The training load percentage used in the Strength Movement should be 80% of your 1 Repetition Max for 1 - 2 Repetitions.

It program the Central Nervous System produce more force.

2) Preforming a Power Movement, such as the Power Clean follows the Strength Movement.

This method evokes greater Power Output in the Power Movements, such as Power Cleans.

3) Rest periods between set need to be 3 minutes or longer.

Has anyone else managed to successfully program power cleans/snatches into their barbell programming?

Absolutely.

My Personal Experience

Post-Activation Potentition Training dramatically increased all my Powerlifts. It is the foundation of my training.

However, there are various other way of eliciting the effect.

The Key To Increasing Power

Employ some type of Power Training into your program.

Preforming Power Cleans and Kettlebells prior to your Deadlift is one method; there are others.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Anna C]

Interesting... Jim Wendler in "5/3/1 Forever" advocates power moves such as jumps and throws in between sets of powerlifts to help with explosiveness.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

Interesting... Jim Wendler in "5/3/1 Forever" advocates power moves such as jumps and throws in between sets of powerlifts to help with explosiveness.

Do you know in which context?
There are 2 ways to interpret this:
1) The jumps and throws help to make your next set of X to be more explosive ("priming" your CNS for the next set).
or...
2) The jumps and throws make you more explosive in general (a way to make you faster/jump higher/throw farther).

 

[LoneRider]

Jim, in 5/3/1 Forever stated the 10-20 throws/jumps are meant to 'wake up' the body, which is why they're done following the mobility and warmup and before the main lift or lifts.

For Greyskull LP the power cleans/power snatches are meant to precede the deadlift with 3 or so of the 5-6 singles being on the heavy side. In Shaeffer's methodology he often challenges trainees to be able to power clean their deadlift weights for a single before starting their deads.

 

[JeffC]

Power Clean your Deadlift weight? No one could even Clean that weight.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

Power Clean your Deadlift weight? No one could do that.

To be fair the DL weight used for GSLP is somewhere between your 5RM and 12RM, so overall let's say 8RM.
8RM is 75-80% of 1RM -> You'd be PCing 75-80% of your DL 1RM.
I agree that you can't PC that much.

For reference, Mark Rippetoe: "I'd like to see an athlete clean at least half his deadlift, preferably 60%. For people who have been training long enough to have a strong deadlift, greater efficiencies than this indicate an aptitude for Olympic weightlifting."
Crossfit also goes for "60% of DL" in their PC recommendations.

Personal experience. I was in that 50-60% range when I did both exercises regularly. Don't know if it's still the same.
For me it's the other way around. I didn't find PCs to warm me up "better" for my DLs on GSLP than just doing DLs with less weight than the working set, but I PCed my record numbers after DLing relatively heavy (with very low volume, e.g. only singles).
For example a 80Kg PC feels like nothing if you've been DLing 100, 120 & 140Kg for a couple of reps before that.

 

[MikeTheBear]

Has anyone else managed to successfully program power cleans/snatches into their barbell programming?

What I would recommend is studying some Olympic lifting program templates and then modifying them for your needs. You may also want to Google programs for a "super total." A super total program will help you increase the three powerlifts and the two Olympic lifts. These programs can get very busy.

Back when I was focused on Olympic lifting I did front squats for the majority of my squatting simply because I realized that front squats seemed to improve everything. They improved my back squat as well as the lifts themselves. I also realized that heavy push presses improved my strict press and, surprisingly, improved my bench press. Of course, your results may be different.

 

[Marlon Leon]

I have made a very similar experience. My first contact with barbell training was when I joined an Olympic weightlifting club. During a session I'd usually progress through a power move such as power snatch or power clean before moving on to the competition lift, followed by pulls. Only at the end of the session I'd squat.
Later when doing some general strength training and squatting first in a session I was quite shocked how much harder it was without all this preparation of the nervous system.

Since you have mentioned Wendler I would go with his recommendation.
When using variations of the Olympic lifts you also have to warm for them specifically. Perhaps some pulls (snatch or clean pulls) for a total of ten to fifteen reps could be a more useful alternative for the purpose of a general strength training.

 

[Anna C]

Well, I'm newly fascinated by the concept, because I don't think I've ever tried it. I just did 12 weeks of 5/3/1 but Wendler doesn't mention the jumps and throws in the original manual, it's in the newest one 5/3/1 Forever. Some quotes:

"I believe that using jumps and throws are essential to any total training program, provided they are programmed and performed correctly."

"Jumps and throws don't need to have a performance goal each training session. Rather, I want you to have a consistency goal.... Just aim to do some kind of jump or throw before every training session."

"In simple English, performing an explosive exercise prior to training helps "turn your body on." Your nervous system gets turned on and gets you ready to lift fast."

"Remember that jumping on a box is NOT a plyometric movement. Plyometrics involve some kind of stretch or rebound..." (he gives the example of jumping off a box and then onto another) "Everyone can jump and throw.... This is the best way to learn how to gather your strength and speed (power) and generate it for one purpose. ...Conversely, not everyone should be doing plyometrics, at least not with jumping. It is incredibly stressful and should be reserved for athletes that NEED to do them and can do them."

He has a hilarious little tirade against high-rep box jumps "If high-rep box jumps were a medical procedure, it would be akin to bloodletting to balance bodily humors." (Short version: Don't do high-rep box jumps. For anything.)

"My general rule is to do 10-20 jumps or throws prior to each training session but this will always change depending on what you are doing in the weight room." Further recommendations are included for each program in 5/3/1 Forever.

"Remember turning on your nervous system isn't separated into upper and lower body. Box jumps are a great way to prime your body for pressing and bench pressing."

3-5 sets of 3-5 reps would be typical box jumps. But there are lots of other recommendations for other types of jumps, and also throws.

I am going to add some of this to my training sessions prior to strength work, and see if it helps!

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

"Remember that jumping on a box is NOT a plyometric movement. Plyometrics involve some kind of stretch or rebound..."

Jumping Up On A Box IS A Plyometric Movement

ANY jump that is preceded by dropping down prior to jumping and exploding back up is a plyometric movement.

Partially dropping down prior to jumping up engages the stretch reflex; which is essentially the definition of a plyometric movement.

(he gives the example of jumping off a box and then onto another)

Increased Stretch Reflex Loading

Jumping off a box onto the ground and rebounding back up on a box increasing the loading, thereby magnifying the stretch reflex; dependent on the height of the box one drop off.

:..not everyone should be doing plyometrics, at least not with jumping. It is incredibly stressful and should be reserved for athletes that NEED to do them and can do them."

Plyometrics Benefit EVERYONE

Children preform plyometrics daily when they are running, jumping and skipping.

Anyone who jogs are runs is preforming plyometrics. Their foot hitting the ground elicits the stretch reflex plyometic action.

Plyometric elicit a great training effect for EVERYONE, when implemented correctly.

Tom Morris, MS Exercise Physiology is a specialist in working with Seniors; plyometrics are a staple in his classes with Seniors.

As per my interview with Morris, "Senior plyometric training involves dropping down into a Partial Squat and then exploding back into the air in a vertical jump or jumping forward in a horizontal jump. Although Seniors don't obtain much vertical height or vertical distance, this method still engages and develops the stretch reflex."

Health experts recommend plyometrics for aging baby boomers, seniors
Plyometrics good for the elderly to help prevent falls

This article provide additional information on the benefits of plyometric for Seniors.

{quote]He has a hilarious little tirade against high-rep box jumps "If high-rep box jumps were a medical procedure, it would be akin to bloodletting to balance bodily humors." (Short version: Don't do high-rep box jumps. For anything.) [/quote]

High Rep Plyometric Box Jumps

...are senseless. Strength, Power and/or Speed Training is dependent on the "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber and the Phosphagen Energy System.

"Super" Fast Type IIb/x and Phosphagen are depleted in around 15 seconds or less.

Thus, the "Sweet Spot" is around 1 - 3 Repetition for Strength, Power and/or Speed Movements.

Kenny Croxdale[/QUOTE]

 

[Anna C]

I suppose Wendler's complete writing on the plyometric subject may be more accurate than conveyed by the pieces that I've quoted. I see what you mean about the dropping down first with a box jump, but seems to me that it's not nearly as much of a stretch reflex as jumping down as with a depth jump or box-floor-box jump.

Just for the sake of argument, what if I sloooooowwwwly drop down to a jump position, pause there for 3 seconds, and then explosively jump onto the box?

 

[Darren Best]

You don't even have to drop slow to eliminate the stretch reflex, just pause at the bottom, same thing works with pause squats. Drop down, pause and launch, the stretch reflex is eliminated, hence a jump.

Plyometrics is using the stretch loading of a previous movement with no pause to take full advantage of the elasticity of the muscles, tendons and ligaments. Any pause eliminates most of it. It's why humans are such efficient runners and walkers.

That being said, plyometrics are an advanced movement and most people simply should not be doing them. Those with a history of injuries, the elderly etc.. It's like comparing walking to sprinting, sprinting is the advanced form of bipedal movement. If a person cannot walk properly, why prescribe sprinting?

Also using a stretch reflex in training makes it more difficult to train a muscle group, this is the major reason training calves is so difficult, the stretch reflex of the lower leg is enormous and must be greatly reduced to get a good training effect on the calves.

 

[JeffC]

In Weightlifting we always warmed up with jumps. Depth jumps, kneeling jumps, stomp drills, jumps up stairs one Legged and two. Never a box jump though. Some people could jump up 3 to 4 stairs at a time on one leg, and 5-6 stairs on two legs. We used them for power production, not to increase strength as a strength trainer would.

We would also do Halting Explosive Pushups to Plates as a quick power warmup for the upper body and power transfer in a rigid plank position.

Cleans or your explosive movement would always be first because they are technically and CNS demanding and you want to be fresh for them. Any good programming would have Competition Lifts or variations first. Especially if you are Deadlifting or Swinging because that screws up the mechanics of the Pull. After all the Hinging I have done in the last few years my Weightlifting sucks.

 

[Marlon Leon]

@Kenny
Your posts are immensely informative. However, the argument about plyometrics that you have with Wendler appears to come from fuzzy definitions. I'd assume he is thinking of depth jumps when talking about plyometrics. And those are probably better reserved for the advanced athlete. Firstly to ensure the body is ready for the very powerful forces that are created and secondly because yiu play this card only once. At least this was a point Pavel discussed in Easy Strength, if my memory serves me well.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Just for the sake of argument, what if I sloooooowwwwly drop down to a jump position, ...

Slow Drop

Slowly dropping down/lowering yourself does little to load the stretch reflex.

Plyometric exercises are characterized by a powerful, explosive muscular contraction in response to an immediate, prior, rapid dynamic loading of the involved muscles. Rapid loading of the muscles and the associated stretch on those muscles causes a "stretch reflex". This stretch reflex causes a proportional contraction of the stretched muscle thereby eliciting a more powerful movement had the muscle not been quickly loaded. Source: "Plyometric Bench Press Training for More Strength and Power"

...pause there for 3 seconds, and then explosively jump onto the box?

Pausing Dampen Or Kills The Stretch Reflex

As Mark Best noted, a pause for 3 seconds pretty much kills the stretch reflex.

"Research by Wilson et. al. (1990) examined different delay times in the bench press and showed that the benefits of prior stretch may endure for as long as 4 seconds, at which point it is suggested that all stored elastic energy is lost. This could lead one to believe that there is full retention of a stretch reflex if the amortization phase is 4 seconds or less. However, the stretch reflex begins to dissolve immediately. Even a short pause will negate the stretch reflex. Additional research indicates that "delays as short as .02 seconds are sufficient to dissipate the benefits of prior stretch", with up to 50% of the stretch reflex being lost in one second. (Siff and Verkhoshansky, 1998)." Source: "Squatting: To Be Explosive, Train Explosive".

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

...plyometrics are an advanced movement and most people simply should not be doing them. Those with a history of injuries, the elderly etc.. It's like comparing walking to sprinting, sprinting is the advanced form of bipedal movement. If a person cannot walk properly, why prescribe sprinting?

Yes and No

Yes, plyometric (any exercise or movement) that exacerbates an injury should not preform them.

No, plyometric are not necessarily an advance technique. We grow up performing plyometrics as children: skipping, hopping, running, jumping, jogging, etc.

One of the primary factor of plyometrics being an advance movement is in how they are preformed (e.g. Depth Jumps).

No, plyometric aren't contraindicated for healthy elderly individuals. I provide information on that in a previous post.

Also using a stretch reflex in training makes it more difficult to train a muscle group, this is the major reason training calves is so difficult, the stretch reflex of the lower leg is enormous and must be greatly reduced to get a good training effect on the calves.

Again, Yes and No

Exercise fall into three type of Strength Curves: Ascending, Descending and Bell Shaped Strength Curves.

Ascending Strength Curve Movements mean the movement is more difficult in the bottom part of the movement: Squat, Deadlift, Leg Press, the majority of Pressing Movements.

Research show that the the muscle are overloaded in the bottom one-third part of Ascending Strength Exercises.

The remaining 2/3 of the movement is underloaded.

The benefits of preforming a Plyometric Squat or Bench Press is...

1) Development of the Stretch Reflex

2) More weight is lifted; increasing the muscle loading occurs upper 2/3 in the Squat, Bench Press, etc.

Paused and Plyometric Movements

1) Each elicits a different training response.

2) Each has is separate benefits.

3) Each should employed as a means of increasing Strength and Power at some point in a good training program.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

@Kenny
Your posts are immensely informative. However, the argument about plyometrics that you have with Wendler appears to come from fuzzy definitions. I'd assume he is thinking of depth jumps when talking about plyometrics. And those are probably better reserved for the advanced athlete. Firstly to ensure the body is ready for the very powerful forces that are created and secondly because yiu play this card only once. At least this was a point Pavel discussed in Easy Strength, if my memory serves me well.

Agreed.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Anna C]

Pausing Dampen Or Kills The Stretch Reflex

That makes sense to me. So by these definitions, a box-floor-box jump is a plyometric movement. A floor-to-box jump might be slightly plyometric if you lower yourself very quickly in order to jump up. A floor-to-box jump is not plyometric if you do it slow enough or pause, avoiding the stretch reflex.

I think this was Wendler's point, that it's the jump or throw that is important for his purposes, not the plyometric aspect of it. Making it plyometric goes beyond the need. "In simple English, performing an explosive exercise prior to training helps "turn your body on." Your nervous system gets turned on and gets you ready to lift fast."

 

[MikeTheBear]

I think this was Wendler's point, that it's the jump or throw that is important for his purposes, not the plyometric aspect of it. Making it plyometric goes beyond the need.

Exactly. The idea is to turn on the nervous system, that's it. You don't even need to use jumps. For various reasons I don't do jumps, but I always warm up with KB swings prior to any type of workout, even if its an upper body workout. Having someone scare you would likely work just as well.