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Barbell Power = work/time = (Force x distance)/time

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Harald Motz

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The components of Power are Force (Strength) and Speed.

Strength is the ability of a muscle or the body to exert Force to an external resistance. To move a weight irrespective to the amount of time it takes.

Speed is the amount of time it takes for an object or the own body to cover a certain distance. Strength contributes to speed by enabling the body to overcome inertia and initiate acceleration, the rate at which speed increases. Once movement is initiated strength is required for the continuing rapid transfer that maintains the velocity of the object against its tendency to slow down.

Power is understood best as the ability to exert force rapidly, or strength applied quickly. If a large muscular force is generated that moves a heavy weight very quickly, power production is high; the highest peak power outputs ever recorded in all athletics have been produced during the second pull phase of the snatch.

Comparing Power output of a "deadlifter" (140kg) and a "Power Cleaner"(140kg):

Deadlift
DL 1RM = 300kg, Distance from floor to lockout = 0,65m, Time from floor to lockout = 4.0 sec

Work= 300kg x 9,8m/(sxs) x 0,65m = 1911Nm
Power 1911Nm/4.0sec = 477,5 Watt - Relative Power = 477,5 Watt/140kg = 3,41Watt/kg


Power Clean
Power Clean 1RM = 150kg, Distance from floor to lockout = 1,27m, Time from floor to lockout = 0,6 sec

Work = 150kg x 9,8m/(sxs) x 1,27m = 1866,9Nm
Power = 1866,9Nm/0,6sec = 3111,5 Watt - Relative Power = 3111,5Watt/140kg = 22,2 Watt/kg


The Power Cleaner has 6,5 times the Power output to the deadlifter, although he lifts half amount of weight

The above I collected from "Practical Programming for Strength Training" second edition Rippetoe and Kilgore (p 42 - 45)

I personally find this quite interesting not only for mathematical reasons.


 
@Harald Motz, you need to get your tape measure and calculator out and do some maths for the Kb snatch.
I get the following results for me (194cm, 93Kg):

Deadlift:
225Kg x 9,8m x 0,65m = 1433,25Nm
1433,25Nm / 2,5sec = 573,3 Watt

Snatch:
40Kg x 9,8m x 1,60m = 627,2Nm
672,02Nm / 0,75sec = 896,03 Watt

I measured the distance for both lifts.
The time to complete a lift is a bit of a guess. I know that my DL (even a 1RM test) doesn't take me longer than 3sec at most. For the snatch I added a bit to the clean time from Haralds post, because you cover more distance at comparable speed.
Even if my guesswork is not 100% accurate it still shows that a KB ballistic like the snatch or swing will never be able to match the power output of the olympic barbell lifts. For that to happen you'd need to swing or snatch a weight that's comparable to the load of the oly lift.
 
While instructive, these types of calculations are a bit tricky for many reasons and don't show all the picture. I don't have time right now to expand, but may come back to this later. In summary,
1 - One looks at averages over the duration of the lift, while the force exerted is certainly not constant for the whole duration. Peak powers and other measures would be more meaningful.
2 - Part of the clean is ballistic. Almost no power is exerted by the lifter at the end, before the catch. Because of the way ballistic movements work, this portion may be surprisingly long even if it represents only a smallish portion of the distance lifted.
3 - There is an implicit equivalence between the mechanical power exerted by the lifter on the weight and the total power exerted by the lifter. This is simply not the case as a lot of energy is exerted by the deadlifter (less so by the cleaner) on static muscle contraction.

Because of (1) and (2), the cleaner is even more impressive than shown when one looks at how muscles can exert a force on an object to affect our environment. Because of (3), the deadlifter is not the lazy low power ("low energy") guy/gall that this seems to imply. In fact, I would be curious to see if anybody analyzed O2 consumption of deadlifters while a set is performed, to see how much energy has to be spent just to not collapse under the weight. No time now, but I will try my friend Google later.
 
shows that a KB ballistic like the snatch or swing will never be able to match the power output of the olympic barbell lifts.

Yes but interesting thing with kb ballistics is the eccentric loading. No idea how that would be comparable and I know force plates have been used to measure this but if you combined the 2 for kb snatches somehow? I know gets a bit daft because they are different things but just to see the maths, you know;)
 
ballistic like the... swing will never be able to match the power output of the olympic barbell lifts.

Comparable Kettlebell Swing and Olympic Movement Power Output

I have posted information this site numerous time.

The Kettelbell Swing can produce Power Output that is comparable an Olympic Movement.

The key to eliciting greater Kettlebell Swing Power Output is to dramatically increase the load, size/weight of the Kettlebell. Doing so, produces Kettlebell Swing Power Outputs that is comparative to an Olympic Movement.

That was demonstrated in Dr Bret Contreras research on "Heavy Kettlebell Swings".

Previous Kettlebell Swing research utilized fairly light Kettlebells, which produce lower Power Output readings.

Training Load Percentages

One of the determinate factors in training for eliciting and developing Speed, Power and Limit Strength is the Training Load Percentage.

Summary

Kettlebell Swing are an excellent Power Training Movement when the right loading is implemented they can be substituted for Olympic Lifting Movement.

Kenny Croxdale
 
@kennycro@@aol.com
Quote the whole statement.
I clearly said...
...the snatch or swing will never be able to match the power output of the olympic barbell lifts. For that to happen you'd need to swing or snatch a weight that's comparable to the load of the oly lift.

So yes a 100KG swing can compete with a 100-150Kg power clean, but the commonly used weights (up to 48Kg) clearly cannot.
 
One day I would love for SF to do some sort of article series/education series on something like "StrongFirst: Then....." and discuss concepts for power, power endurance, strength endurance, etc. I totally understand this site gears to pure strength, and IMO one of the best resources in the world for this. That being said, I'd love to hear the collective wisdom and taking strength gains and turning it into other qualities. Most sports aren't geared to max strength (besides power lifting), and even adults simply interested in healthy aging should strive to maintain power qualities.

The swing is inherently a power move, and I know there are articles and resources that touch on the topics I'm requesting (A+A protocols, the recent article Your Conditioning Program Does Not Have to be Sport-Specific | StrongFirst . How would SF coaches periodize from a max strength phase into a phase more for sport-specific quality? Is that done concurrently? Sequential blocks?
 
What are your other reasons, @Harald Motz?
answer:
Most sports aren't geared to max strength (besides power lifting), and even adults simply interested in healthy aging should strive to maintain power qualities.

it would be interesting, how much strength can be built by power training. My assumption is quite a lot.
I was a bit unsure, to which forum I should have been posting this thread. As I wanted to to post a handy example out of Rippetoe's book and it is about the barbell I posted it on the barbell forum, might have been better posted to the kettlebell forum as my musings go around the bell(s), as they are so great for ballistics.

Yes but interesting thing with kb ballistics is the eccentric loading. No idea how that would be comparable and I know force plates have been used to measure this but if you combined the 2 for kb snatches somehow? I know gets a bit daft because they are different things but just to see the maths, you know
the eccentric loading is huge and the fact, a bell can be used repeatedly for a set.

KB ballistic like the snatch or swing will never be able to match the power output of the olympic barbell lifts. For that to happen you'd need to swing or snatch a weight that's comparable to the load of the oly lift.
with using double bell one can come closer (maybe still far away from the weight what can be used with a bar). And as I said before an advantage of bells is that they can be used better repeatedly for some reps to develop Power and strength.

@Steve W. noted somewhere, double cleans are underrated, I think double high pull too. They are great for A+A format.
 
It is an interesting question. I tend to think of power as a display of strength. It requires a certain amount of skill to do and can certainly be trained by itself. But would pure maximum strength training be more beneficial after a certain skill ceiling in the display is reached?

I trained with kettlebells for several years. I got up to doing swings and cleans with 40kg. When I started deadlifting and got up to 230kg in a couple of months my swings and cleans became massively easier. I wonder for how long I should have had to train the swings and cleans on their own to reach the same level.

On the other hand, I think there will likely also be a strength ceiling, after which it's likely more beneficial to concentrate more on the display, if it's the goal. I don't know how far that is, but I believe it's pretty far.

In the end, I feel lucky I don't have to decide between the two modalities. I train for powerlifting and (plan to, at the moment) do kettlebell power training in the side.
 
it would be interesting, how much strength can be built by power training.
Undoubtedly a great deal of strength can be built in this way. There are many other interesting questions of a similar bent:

For GPP, is it “better” to train power or strength? There are many parameters: injury risk, learning curve, mobility requirements - and more.

-S-
 
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Without thinking too hard about it, my initial idea is that a mix of both is imperative.

Does training strength only make you "powerful"?
I think there is a certain point where pure maximum strength would detract from power. Heavy squatters don't jump through the roof. The adaptation of force development did not incorporate high speeds and therefore that quality was not attained.

Does training only power make you "strong"? Does it have to be heavy implement (clean/snatch/heavy swing) power, or can light implement (med ball, plyos) power training create maximum strength?
Thought 1 - power is force x distance...key word force. Power is built on max strength. 99% of periodization books would tell you that a power phase should always follow a max strength phase as part of a macrocyle for power-oriented sports.
Thought 2 - I don't know if there is a point where heavy power training would not equate to further strength gains. I would love to hear more about this.

I truly do believe one best incorporate some sort of power training in their annual plan.
 
For GPP, is it “better” to train power or strength? There are many parameters: injury risk, learning curve, mobility requirements - and more.
before moving quickly comes moving slowly.
kb deadlift before kb swings.
For GPP I would say without doubt to train power repeatedly for a great amount. S&S, A+A. I am biased towards these as I am with S&S in my fifth year, A+A for about 2,5 years.
 
can I pitch in my very un-scientific experience? when I train power movements frequently (Heavy 1 handed swings and snatches in the 5-10 rep range) My overall strength goes up. I don't know if its because im strengthening some of the largest muscles in my body (gluten, lats etc.) or because im focused on max power. I believe its a combo of both frankly but when I don't train them as hard my and im focused on say military press my general athleticism does suffer.
 
Without thinking too hard about it, my initial idea is that a mix of both is imperative.

Conjugate Training

This training method employs different type of Strength Training during the same cycle.

Doing so elicits a Synergistic Effect, one type of Strength enhancing the other component.

It it tantamount of adding 2 + 2 and getting 5; providing the program is well written and followed.

I think there is a certain point where pure maximum strength would detract from power

Limit Strength "Detracts" From Power

Another good point.

1) Limit Strength Training: This is Strength Training that focuses on increasing an individual 1 Repetition Max in Traditional Exercises like Squats, Presses, and Deadlifts.

Limit Strength is the foundation on which Speed and Power are built. An initial increase in Strength will produce an increase in Speed and/or Power.

However, research has demonstrated that if ONLY Limit Strength is trained, eventually a decrease in Speed and Power will follow.

Thus, there is some truth to the old adage that "Lifting heavy weight will make you slow."

This has to do with the effect different types of Strength Training has on...

Muscle Fiber Types

There are essentially three type of Muscle Fiber: Slow Twitch Type I, Fast Type IIa and "Super Fast Type IIb/x.

1) Fast Twitch Type IIa Muscle Fiber: Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are influenced and developed with Limit Strength Training.

"Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber are converted over to the stronger and less Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

In doing so your eventually Limit Strength ONLY increases at the expense of your Speed and Power.

2) "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber. "Super" Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are influenced and developed with Speed Training.

Fast Twitch Type IIa Muscle Fiber are converted over to much faster "Super" Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

That produces an increase in Speed at the expense of a decrease in Strength, if Speed Training is ONLY trained.

Power = Strength X Speed.

Power is (wespom9) a mix of both.

"...Strength and speed have a multiplicative impact on power,... If an arbitrary strength score for an athlete was 2, and the athlete's arbitrary speed score also was 2, the hypothetical power rating would be:

2 x 2 = 4

Doubling strength without altering speed would double power:

4 x 2 = 8

If the same athlete made only a 50 percent gain in strength and an equal gain in speed, the power rating would be:

3 x 3 = 9" (Greg Brittenham, 1997)

Would Heavy Power Equate to Further Strength Gains?

Yes, to some extent since Strength is a component of Power.

"...Incorporate some sort of power training..."

Implementing Power Training is one program will definitely elicit a greater training effect. Research and empirical data have demonstrated this.

Kenny Croxdale
 
I put my success as a reborn sprinter in my 50s down to S&S. And using it with sprinting to complement power from a low to high cns involvement.
I know in traditional strength training, deadlift and squats are the thing. I have no argument or contrary opinions on that at all but it's also noted that they both demand a lot from the cns. Separating them, in a seasonal approach, sure but if you want to combine them then unless you are young and an exceptional athlete then for someone other than that it maybe a little too much, maybe?
So I've gone for the power delivery of swings and the patterning of global body strength with the get up. Some additional light single leg patterning and the goblets and reckon I'm covered. For a bloke in his fifties with teenagers, no knees, many sport injuries and all the sitting of driving and the usual package of stressors, S&S and SF generally, has unleashed my inner athlete.
Finished a recent round of A&A snatches and had my first tentative sprint training session yesterday after a lay off for no other reason than I ran in 2 events and wanted to calm everything down and to focus a little on the snatches. Can't offer any quantitative times but flew out my blocks and ran like the wind in some 80% tempo sprints. Felt great. Certainly, qualitatively, all things were firing from were I left off. Hitting S&S again with some sprinting again soon.
I think S&S is kind of special.
 
The strength is the "mother" of all qualities. Without
strength (force) there is no movement at all. (Isaac Newton)

The power is a derivative of strength (force). You may be
able to clean say 60 % of max DL but not 100 %. The power
(movement) is also a product of skill and there indeed is
the "gold nickel" - one needs to master the skill first in
order to produce and utilize the maximum power for the
movement.

Athletic development and coaching is normally based on
cycling the above qualities: skill-speed-strength-skill-
speed-strength... We start with skill training as a
youngster, once the individual is able to utilize almost
all of his/her present strength level in given sport, then
it's time to pump up the strength and so forth. The cycling
continues thru the athletic career, however, there will be
a moment when the strength level is to be considered enough
for given sport. One example could be a shot putter with
+200 kg bench, 300 kg back squat, 200 kg clean; he can be
considered "strong enough" and focus should be towards
other qualities.

As to the question "strength can be built by power
training?" My experiences are, assuming the skill is
mastered, one can develop rather good strength level by
focusing power movements only. However, the compensation
takes more time and potential maximum will be lower. The
absolute best results will be achieved by clever cycling
with different strength and speed-strength blocks.

Other aspect is stress to the body, especially for
adults/elderly people. For sure one can maintain and
develop strength level by heavy power movements like heavy
barbell cleans for months but that'll cause a lot of stress
to the joints and ligaments and in the end there will be at
minimum weeks off or perhaps surgery. I think the better
way is to take pure "slow-strength" cycle in between and
then get back to powers - like 4-6 weeks DL cycle followed
by swinging, snatching, cleaning whatever...

Just my "5 cents" on this... :)
 
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