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Kettlebell Press...Press....Press...where's the pull?

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If youre doing a program that calls for an upper body pull and you count deadlift toward that, you arent doing the program. If you are doing a program that calls for an upper body pull or a lower body pull and you do farmer carries, you arent doing the program. What youre doing may very well be good, and more minimalistic, but for the sake of meaningful categories when communicating, no counting presses as pulls or deadlifts as rows or anything. We can use these lifts to stimulate similar muscles, but thats not primary concentric action against load that we’re describing. We each can describe these things in our own ways in our heads, but the intent of a program can get blurred, and also we can talk right past each other when we use these looser definitions (am I the only one who still gets confused when someone refers to their weaker side as their “strong” side? Learn the lesson and mindset from Irontamers insight, but then lets still use standard English ;)
 
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I understand that a properly performed press (I am currently performing the DBL KB C&P as part of the 'Dry Fighting Weight" program) has an element of pulling motion. I have no doubt that I could get by without adding any additional pulling, BUT- adding in rows afterwards feels great and I can tell that my pulling muscles have not been exercised fully by the C&P. So yes- it's not totally necessary to add the pulling, but it certainly is helping me balance out all the pressing. I'm going to start doing a few sets of chin-ups on my days off as well.
 
I've finally got around to reading all the fantastic programs Geoff Neupert has in "kettlebell express reloaded'....guess what? He has included chin ups along with presses in multiple programs. Hmmm....I wonder why? I mean, the press is a pull isn't it? Why would Geoff include the chin-ups.....? All sarcasm aside- the case for 'balancing out the pressing' is now complete- I declare the subject now resolved. Continue with your regular 'pulling' activities in addition to the pressing. ;)
 
Ed Coan worked his horizontal rows to death, matching his bench press I believe.
Pavel includes pullups with overhead presses in Rite of Passage.
Dan John recommends an upper body pull (no, deadlift or swing are not upper body pulls) among his main movement patterns for easy strength, or as a template for any kind of general program.

StrongFirst often answers the question "how little can I do/how little can I do it with", which is one of its strengths: no excuses to stay weak. Now, when someone has the time and equipment and desire to do more training, there are great additions a person can make within reason. Including an upper body pull against your upper body press is one of those time tested and great additions. Getting really excited about training and working 12 different exercises in your weekly plan, on the other hand, has likely left the path of wisdom.
 
Snatches, with the the high pull transition to get the arm under the bell, involve a true "upper body" pull along with the "big pull", or hinge.

Even so, Pavel includes pullups as a standard variation in the midst of swings, snatches, and cleans in rite of passage.
 
12 different exercises?? jca17...I'm not sure where this number came from, but my take on the balancing of 'all the pressing' is simply to add one or two pull movements at the end of (for example) the 'Dry Fighting Weight' program (that I am now following and enjoying). I do rows and curls afterwards as these two simple movements target muscles that are not fully utilized in the program. It is great fun debating these programs- the purists would say that any variation of the program is not 'doing the program' but I disagree- additions or regressions of programs happen all the time. The main goal is the goal. Add some pulling to the goal? Nothing wrong with that. The goal of DFW (as I read it) is strength. And even with my heretical 'pulling' movements...I am still on the path! ;):) ....of strength.
 
Push
Pull
Hinge
Squat
Locomotion/Mobility

I cannot imagine making a case for a GPP program that fails to include a solid dose of all.

Although...pretty much everything we do is pulling - muscles only generate force one way. :D
 
TShuman said:
Very true when you Press correctly You PULL ( Like the Pull-up ) the weight from overhead back into the rack position. There is your Push/Pull balance in the Press.
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I'm repeating this - people who do this have been known to get 1-arm chin-up on little direct training. You treat the negative portion of the press, the part where the bell is lowering back to the rack position, as a _pull_, actively pulling it down instead of just yielding to gravity.

Of course, not everyone is going to get their one-arm chin without a lot of direct training, but we do know that pressing this way accomplishes a lot: it practices the pullup groove without doing pullups, it creates additional tension and practice at the skill of tension and time under tension.

Great tip, @TShuman.

-S-
 
North Coast Miller said:
Push
Pull
Hinge
Squat
Locomotion/Mobility

I cannot imagine making a case for a GPP program that fails to include a solid dose of all.

Although...pretty much everything we do is pulling - muscles only generate force one way. :D
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That is basically what Dan John call the "Killer App Program" :) (Killer Apps)


Killer Apps can be a perfect program, if there is such a thing:


Military or Bench Press (Barbell)

T-Y-I Pulls and Rows (TRX)

Deadlifts or Swings (Barbell or KBs)

Goblet Squats (KB)

Farmer Walks (Dumbbell)

TGU (KB)

Ab Wheel Rollout (Ab Wheel)


Get a limited amount of equipment and get back to simple and successful training.
 
I think some overthink it too much. Steve just posted what has been said previously about actively pulling the bell back to the rack making the press a pull. (I think I too said that in this thread some time back but I recognize I'm not an instructor but I have utilized the SF system)

One of the great things about the SF philosophy is minimalism, in my mind at least. Don't think of the press as a shoulder exercise but a full body exercise. When you start panicking about adding in this and that because I want my lateral head of my tricep to get some work you complicate the beautifully simple system.

When I was active duty LEO I used to laugh at the guys who trained bis and tris for an hour who couldn't do a pullup.

Do the basic and big moves and the rest fall into place.

When I did Geoffs Strong program all I did was the double clean and press. Kind of like the Dan John quote of if all you did was clean and press you could be awesome or words to that effect....lol

Anyway I did phases one and two just focussing on the one exercise and my pullup strength increased and my front squatting ability stayed the same.

Mileage may vary
 
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John Grahill said:
I think some overthink it too much. Steve just posted what has been said previously about actively pulling the bell back to the rack making the press a pull.

One of the great things about the SF philosophy is minimalism....Don't think of the press as a shoulder exercise but a full body exercise. When you start panicking about adding in this and that because I want my lateral head of my tricep to get some work you complicate the beautifully simple system.

When I was active duty LEO I used to laugh at the guys who trained bis and tris for an hour who couldn't do a pullup.

Do the basic and big moves and the rest fall into place.

..Kind of like the Dan John quote of if all you did was clean and press you could be awesome or words to that effect....lol

Anyway I did phases one and two just focussing on the one exercise and my pullup strength increased and my front squatting ability stayed the same.
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What a terrific post..I did edit it a bit for brevity and add emphasis. The thing I see over and over and over again both in print and in practice are people who are too concerned with minutiae. Just trust the process and attack!! Great post, @John Grahill !!
 
:eek: @KIWI5 , I don't know if a guilty conscience made you feel that was directed at you :p I was defending you for adding rowing movements to your program. I also wanted to point out the concern of minimalists with a hypothetical trainee doing 12 different movements as "main" exercises every week.

You know when your additions have broken the program when you don't get the results that the program has been shown to normally produce. I'm defending you doing your thing, and if the goal of the program seems difficult or hindered, now you have your own training history to show when to leave out extra stuff that can detract. Or, you have a record showing how your body tolerates and thrives on extra upper body pulls in addition to other programs. Accurate specialized self awareness of body and training responses trumps general advice.
 
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You know, just as a general point of, perhaps, philosophy - ? - training plans are one of those things that ought to be subject Ockam's Razor. I think many people think it's easier to come up with a good training plan than it actually is, a case of mistakenly assuming that designing training plans is easier than it is. I was talking with someone today about Plan Strong - it's really part science and part art, and it's not simple.

-S-
 
Is also important to recognize the adaptive response to any program is going to fall in a range. We not only start out different but as we become more fit/resistance training adapted, that variation is liable to increase.

When dealing with minimalist programs it is not crazy to consider what is or is not included based on what you already know about yourself. There is a huge difference between this topic - adding an upper body pull to a minimalist program, and adding preacher curls or kickbacks.
 
No offense taken! I'm enjoying the varying viewpoints....and learning at the same time. Meanwhile, I am trying to put together the ultimate free weights & kettlbell program- with no movements left out. This program will be all that you ever need to do for total body strength training. It will only take one hour per day, with two days off per week. I hope to release the program someday- it a'int easy designing programs.
 
KIWI5 said:
I am trying to put together the ultimate free weights & kettlbell program- with no movements left out.
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Are you thinking an exercise for each movement, or will you utilise the ones that cover multiple movements in one go?
 
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