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Kettlebell Press...Press....Press...where's the pull?

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dc- I'm not sure why I'm so fixated on the 2lb'ers, I realize that club swinging is not a power move- but surely there will be some progression? What do you use the 3lb'ers for? I suppose the 1lb'ers will come handy once I get old.....
 
@KIWI5 in one thread I said I used each weight on consecutive days, but that was a miss type I couldn’t be bothered correcting (lazy). But Monday to Friday I use the 1lbers, Saturday the 2lbers & Sunday 3lbers. I do 5mins a day, when using the 1s I swing faster & get a lot more actual swings in (they feel great). 3s I still do 5mins but slow with obviously way less swings for my 5mins. The 2s are somewhere in between. I only bought the 3 different sizes cause I got them in a deal I couldn’t pass up. Like I said if I was to buy one set definitely the 1lbers they make my shoulders feel solid & secure. The 2s are ok, but as I like to swing everyday I found they seem to tire out my shoulders a bit. 3s I use cause I bought them, I go slow concentrate & use as a strength workout. Trust me, get the 1lbers. If you’re fixated on the 2s then get them & the 1lbers.
Edit: I progressed by getting more swings in with better form in my 5mins. You could also extend the time. Learn more complicated swinging techniques. There are many ways to progress an exercise without adding more weight.
 
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Yes, I now remember your post on the clubs- your final comment has sold me on the 1lb'ers- I am using this technique for the dbl kb squats in DFW- I'm really focusing on a slow negative, pause at bottom and blast up. The pressing is providing plenty enough stress for the upper body, but my lower body needs a bit more challenge so I'm making the squats as 'heavy' as I can. Also- I can't remember, did I mention the additional pulling I'm doing to balance out all the pressing?
 
jca17 said:
Guys, getup is hinge, squat, push, pull, carry, abs, groundwork. Why even add swings? Plus, it has an actual dynamic upper body pull which swing doesnt. Stop complicating this!
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The TGU is the multi-directional "strength" move if you will. The swing is about endurance, conditioning, cardio, and it tones up your midriff real good in tandem with the TGU. Raw lifting strength without cardio and conditioning, let alone the anti-twist strength generated through 1h swings, is just raw lifting strength. The TGU is a more versatile move than typical "traditional" moves like the deadlift or bench press, but without the "resistance cardio" of the swings, we're leaving out lots of important stuff. In my experience, TGUs alone left me looking fat, and also TGUs plus 2 handed heavy swings. It's the correct by the book S&S system that makes me look, feel, and be good.
 
Kozushi- I've yet to seriously train the 1H swings- but after reading your post, I will start practicing them. What are your thoughts on double kettlebell cleans?
 
Sorry, I started sensing some dry humor from all sides and couldnt help it. I dont actually think S&S is too complicated because of the swings :)
Nor do I think the TGU gets to count for any of those buckets of exercise categories. It definitely goes in the “other” category, with no truly overloaded concentric portions. Most of the hard work is isometric.
It can stand on its own and be added in one form or another to almost any program, and it may help your pressing, but it is not a press, nor a truly loaded hinge. It can be a difficult upper body pull getting to elbow, or difficult squat for some people via the lunge, but thats a lot of extra stuff if you are programming it for one of those goals specifically.
 
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Good points jca17- especially noting the dry humour. This has been grossly overlooked by some.. but back to designing the ultimate programme- when it comes to barbell and kettlebell- Tactical Barbell takes the prize. I can't find anything as comprehensive. Strictly kettlebell programs obviously go to Pavel, Neupert and John. I'm leaning towards the Armor Building Complex next-thanks Dan!
 
@KIWI5 all jokes aside, I’ll make you a deal. You follow simple & sinister by the book to a T, with no additives until you own simple. Really own simple so the 32 is apart of you, & if you don’t feel stronger than you’ve been in decades & all round awesome then I’ll....... pretty much do nothing, but just do it anyway & see for yourself. You won’t be disappointed.
 
Regarding club weight, when I took the 1-day workshop, I found I needed 2 lb. clubs - the 1 lb. weren't enough to help loosen up some of my shoulder tightness but the heavier weight did the trick. Everyone teaching the workshop said this was OK.

-S-
 
Clubs / Maces are of interest to me. I have chronically tight shoulders and scapula winging; what is the consensus on indian clubs VS mace swings for loosening the shoulders? I cannot imagine weight as light as 2-3lb would do anything for anyone. Perhaps I am wrong.

Also, I really cannot be convinced that a press is a pull. There is no resistance on the pulling muscles given that gravity and the weight are working with you. Even slow negatives would be working the shoulders (pushing muscles).
 
KIWI5 said:
Kozushi- I've yet to seriously train the 1H swings- but after reading your post, I will start practicing them. What are your thoughts on double kettlebell cleans?
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My thought on the double kettlebell cleans is that they are a respectable movement, but they don't have the important conditioning and anti-twist elements of 1h swings, and they don't have the weight of deadlifts. Pavel has a double clean and jerk or something like that in his most advanced kettlebell book, but this is for herculean people.

Look, there are plenty of moves you can do, and you remind me a lot of myself two years ago when I first got interested in Strong First. I had so much enthusiasm but no knowledge.

What are our goals?

1. We want to look attractive for our womenfolk - so we want to trim our bodies up and get rid of any kind of pot belly and sagginess in the face.
2. We want real wold practical strength for "real people" and not as competitive weightlifting athletes. So, we want to be physically strong and healthy, because it's good to be for health and longevity reasons.
3. We want to do it in the least time possible.

S&S achieves this.

But why?

The anti-twist "core" training of the 1h swings paired with its activation of the legs and the back chain trims up your body real good.
The cardio aspect of the swings makes you wake up and feel alert, bring down blood pressure, greatly enhance your endurance and fitness levels.
The TGUs make your whole body tense up very rigidly in all kinds of different postures. This move balances out all the pulling actions of the 1h swings with pushing-resistance actions in all directions.

Results - very very VERY quickly your fat, blobbly body gets trimmed up thin, without necessarily losing much in the way of weight - by tightening up all your muscles all over your body. You become ridiculously strong for a non-specialist weightlifter. I did indeed carry a piano under my arm like the book says I could - it was an electric piano though, but still quite heavy and big! Hehehe.

What's wrong with other stuff - nothing's wrong with it, but if you want to actually trim your body down FAST and get all-directional strength with cardio in under 30 minutes a day, I don't see an easy match for S&S. If you do deadlifts and bench presses you'll get super strong at those two moves, but you're not getting rid of your sagging belly, and your strength will be excellent in those two directions but not so ready for "anything that comes at you" (at least from my experience fighting such guys in judo - and not to say those moves aren't super good also!).

S&S is "how can I get super fit, super strong for a typical human, super fast and super efficiently?"

S&S is basically just lots of 1h swings. The TGUs are important to balance the swings out, but the magic is in the swings. Lots of excellent athletes have been fawning over kettlebell swings for centuries.
 
2lb-ers didn’t seem to do much for me for a while, but once I was more confident and relaxed into the swinging they suddenly started doing a great deal of good for my shoulders. 1lb clubs fill a different gap in my mind - they are smaller and faster and excellent for the mental aspect (asynchronous moves take some getting used too).
Maces look great but whilst there are some fantastic videos out there I can’t help but feel they are generally more limiting than clubs (10-12’s and 360’s) and are more akin to heavy Meels than to lighter clubs.
Am definitely not an expert though...
 
dc-I'm enjoying kettelbell complex's so much (and gaining so much strength!) that S&S just isn't on my radar. I'll get back to TGU's after DFW, and 1H swings will definitely be on the 'to do'.
Kozushi- goals of mine are functional strength (to assist me in wood chopping, carrying heavy items around the farm...everything that involves movement and strength really) and to ensure that I enter old age with strong bones and connective tissue. But underlying those goals is to have fun while training- I'm currently hooked on KB Complex's- I will be doing the Dan John Armor Building next- but with 20kg kb's instead of the 16kg's I'm using for DFW. I do miss the heavy weights of deadlifting and squatting, which is why I've been trying to figure our how to incorporate both barbell and kettlebell. I had an initial program with one lift a day (bench, squat etc) with TGU's as warm up and swings to finish...but now that I've discovered the dbl kb clean and press and dbl kb squat- I'll put my ULTIMATE program on hold....for now... ps- I'm not worried about losing any more fat- while I could probably loose another 1 or 2 kilos, at 22% body fat I'm okay.
 
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I will say that I did an easy strength cycle using Weighted Pull ups as my "pull" and Double cleans as my explosive "hinge" I can report that by day 17 my pull muscles (lats and surprisingly biceps) were pretty fatigued. and by day 20 I had hit the goal I set for myself, injury had healed and my lats were done. 10 heavy cleans mixed with pull ups almost daily were to much for me. if I were to do it again id pick either cleans or pull ups not both as they use similar muscle groups.
 
Cleans and pull ups I can understand as targeting very similar muscle groups with almost equal intensity. But the press and pull up? Nope. If the press placed enough stress on the pulling muscles (through the negative) then all the fantastic KB complex's that have both the press and pull up ( or chin up) would be obsolete. There is one such complex on this forum right now- i see no one questioning its validity? This was my original thought when I started this thread.
 
To @KIWI5's point, straight from Rite of Passage explanation in ETK:

"You will make even greater gains in your upper-body strength by adding pullups to your routine."
In a program that already has a ton of pressing with an active pull on the negative & cleans and swings and snatches.
 
@KIWI5 Yes, pull ups are a great complement to pressing. I think what many people in here are saying is that they aren’t strictly “necessary” when you treat the body as one piece by using full body tension. This is a minimalist perspective.

Some people like yourself like to still do more movements to feel “more balanced” and get more well rounded strength gains. Both ways work, it just depends on what you are looking for. In your case, definitely keep doing pull ups since they are important to you.
 
KIWI5 said:
dc-I'm enjoying kettelbell complex's so much (and gaining so much strength!) that S&S just isn't on my radar. I'll get back to TGU's after DFW, and 1H swings will definitely be on the 'to do'.
Kozushi- goals of mine are functional strength (to assist me in wood chopping, carrying heavy items around the farm...everything that involves movement and strength really) and to ensure that I enter old age with strong bones and connective tissue. But underlying those goals is to have fun while training- I'm currently hooked on KB Complex's- I will be doing the Dan John Armor Building next- but with 20kg kb's instead of the 16kg's I'm using for DFW. I do miss the heavy weights of deadlifting and squatting, which is why I've been trying to figure our how to incorporate both barbell and kettlebell. I had an initial program with one lift a day (bench, squat etc) with TGU's as warm up and swings to finish...but now that I've discovered the dbl kb clean and press and dbl kb squat- I'll put my ULTIMATE program on hold....for now... ps- I'm not worried about losing any more fat- while I could probably loose another 1 or 2 kilos, at 22% body fat I'm okay.
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The mace training is good for anything like chopping wood, obviously.

I don't have your goals at all. I live in a city and strength is not linked in any way to my occupation. Sounds like you are on a program designed by experts, so you'll be fine. The complex moves are good for overall conditioning. They are weaker at developing strength than when you repeat the same move over and over again. But, conditioning is important, especially when using your training for manual labour.
 
Maine-ah KB said:
I will say that I did an easy strength cycle using Weighted Pull ups as my "pull" and Double cleans as my explosive "hinge" I can report that by day 17 my pull muscles (lats and surprisingly biceps) were pretty fatigued. and by day 20 I had hit the goal I set for myself, injury had healed and my lats were done. 10 heavy cleans mixed with pull ups almost daily were to much for me. if I were to do it again id pick either cleans or pull ups not both as they use similar muscle groups.
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I've been cautioned to not see pullups as a "big pull" movement. Cleans are, because they use the legs in the pull. Pullups aren't because they only use the upper body.
 
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