Kettlebell Press...Press....Press...where's the pull?

[Kozushi]

@KIWI5 Yes, pull ups are a great complement to pressing. I think what many people in here are saying is that they aren’t strictly “necessary” when you treat the body as one piece by using full body tension. This is a minimalist perspective.

Some people like yourself like to still do more movements to feel “more balanced” and get more well rounded strength gains. Both ways work, it just depends on what you are looking for. In your case, definitely keep doing pull ups since they are important to you.

Speaking with the myopia of a judo and similar sport fighter for several decades, I used to rely on chinups a lot to make sure I looked good, but in terms of practical strength for the mat - pretty useless. Why? It's one linear movement so you have strength really only in one exact line which is hardly ever activated - who ever pulls directly down onto themselves? I think like Pavel's books say, it's a great way to develop the lats which are important for stabilizing the body in pressing movements. It's also a good one for when you don't have better equipment to use and you want to tone your body up a bit and look alright. Even so, I came to realize what callisthenics means - "beautiful strength" - it's more about looking good than having practical strength. At the moment I can't see any use for pullups in my training whatsoever. They target only a few muscle groups in the body, and don't develop practical strength for hardly anything.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

I've been cautioned to not see pullups as a "big pull" movement.

In what sense of "pull"? The 5 movements pull ala Dan John or in the sense of "I'm pulling heavy off the floor" when someone deadlifts or something similar.
If we are talking about the 5 movements pull I can't think of a bigger pull than the pullup.

 

[Kozushi]

In what sense of "pull"? The 5 movements pull ala Dan John or in the sense of "I'm pulling heavy off the floor" when someone deadlifts or something similar.
If we are talking about the 5 movements pull I can't think of a bigger pull than the pullup.

I'm talking pretty technical here about the "Big pull" and "Big push" movements that Pavel thinks should be the base of any solid program. Yes, a pullup is a "pull" but it isn't a "big pull" because it is not "big" in the sense that it does not use the entire body.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

I'm talking pretty technical here about the "Big pull" and "Big push" movements that Pavel thinks should be the base of any solid program. Yes, a pullup is a "pull" but it isn't a "big pull" because it is not "big" in the sense that it does not use the entire body.

Ah ok.
Yes in that case I agree.

 

[offwidth]

and don't develop practical strength for hardly anything.

I can't say I go along wth that...

 

[Kozushi]

I can't say I go along wth that...

I'd like to find out what it's useful for, besides rock climbing.

You'll notice I was careful to write, "for hardly anything".

 

[Kettlebelephant]

I'd like to find out what it's useful for, besides rock climbing.

Grip, abs, posture are things that come to my mind immediately. While you can also develop those with other exercise the pullup has a big advantage IMO -> it uses your own body.
I can clean, deadlift, bent-over row etc. while being a fat blob, because my weight doesn't affect those lifts.
The pullup though tends to keep your bodyweight in check, because you can't do it if you're overweight.

If you're talking about usefulness in real life none of the exercises we do makes sense.
When was the last time you picked something of the floor that was totally balanced and exactly the height of a 45lbs plate?
When was the last time you had to squat down, put something heavy on your back and stand up again?
When was the last time you had to stand up from a lying position with a weird object in your hand while keeping a straight arm overhead (instead of just standing up and then picking it up from the floor)?

We do those things to get a carry-over effect to other fields of life, because they are proven to yield results for that.
And the pullup is definitely one of those exercises that has proven itself to be among the best of those exercises, even though you rarely have to pull yourself up to something in your life.

 

[NoahMarek]

There is a reason pull ups are part of the Tactical Strength challenge...

 

[offwidth]

Obstacle Course Racing
Military Perspective
Gymnastics

 

[Kozushi]

Grip, abs, posture are things that come to my mind immediately. While you can also develop those with other exercise the pullup has a big advantage IMO -> it uses your own body.
I can clean, deadlift, bent-over row etc. while being a fat blob, because my weight doesn't affect those lifts.
The pullup though tends to keep your bodyweight in check, because you can't do it if you're overweight.

If you're talking about usefulness in real life none of the exercises we do makes sense.
When was the last time you picked something of the floor that was totally balanced and exactly the height of a 45lbs plate?
When was the last time you had to squat down, put something heavy on your back and stand up again?
When was the last time you had to stand up from a lying position with a weird object in your hand while keeping a straight arm overhead (instead of just standing up and then picking it up from the floor)?

We do those things to get a carry-over effect to other fields of life, because they are proven to yield results for that.
And the pullup is definitely one of those exercises that has proven itself to be among the best of those exercises, even though you rarely have to pull yourself up to something in your life.

The 1h swings and the TGUs of S&S are super practical for judo. Why? Do I yank on my opponent using the entire power of my body and only one arm - yes, all the time. What about pushing out at different angles using my whole body, like as in the TGU - again, yes, almost always during the match. Also, do these exercises leave me with a fat belly? No.

Grip, abs and posture are all important things, and the pullup is good for those for sure! One piece of equipment I made sure I always have wherever I live is a pullup bar. This has been true since I was a teenager. Interestingly, I started out lifting weights with a light barbell, but ended up moving towards chinups and dips mainly as I got a bit older as a teen. I was very muscular, lean, and so forth. Definitely worked. My beef with these moves regards fighting strength for judo, MMA and BJJ, which I felt were not served by the two moves much - they were good for keeping me in good overall physical condition to handle training, but gave me little in the way of practical strength for fighting, besides of course raw grip strength (thanks for reminding me of that!) Hmmm... there might be aspects of strength I've always taken for granted though that I was getting from chinups and dips. Definitely when I don't have my kettlebells (which is true sometimes), I do as much chinup and dip or similar training as possible (it became the 1h pushup after reading NW).

Deadlifts are super useful in judo. I notice the difference when I slack off on them. When I'm training them regularly, and it's only at 300lbs, I can pick up my opponents and flip them over like a rug.

Gee, lots of neat moves with different powers! When you've got a specific sport focus, lifting weights takes on a different dimension, because you're using your strength systems tactically. For military training I have no idea what is good for what reason.

 

[guardian7]

Slowly raises hand...
I do not view swings, cleans, or TGU as providing the same adaptive response as horizontal pull movements.

The lack of imbalance is due to the pressing being virtually straight overhead, "balanced" between horizontal push and horizontal pull.

I agree. We can't totally isolate but upperback is not the same as middle back. I don't know why the kettlebell row is not promoted more. A swing sized bell for high reps or part of a circuit as King Cobra Fit suggests along with Dan John's batwings and rear delt work is a good idea. If you have access to a cable station then seated rows and face pulls complement KB work nicely. The renegade row seems like a great suggestion if you bell weight is too light for rows.

 

[Im out]

practical strength for the mat - pretty useless. Why? It's one linear movement so you have strength really only in one exact line which is hardly ever activated - who ever pulls directly down onto themselves? I think like Pavel's books say, it's a great way to develop the lats which are important for stabilizing the body in pressing movements..

You just said it yourself

for stabilizing the body

Lats help stabilize the back. I believe it is also mentioned in convict conditioning. Besides, I have noticed a positive effect of practicing pull ups in posture, overall strength, and pain reduction ( my back used to hurt )

So it might not help in throwing another person, even though it probably does. Pull ups will strengthen your stance on the mat (improved stabilization) It might just get harder for your opponent to throw YOU, even though you might not notice this.

My 2 cents...

Even so, I came to realize what callisthenics means - "beautiful strength" - it's more about looking good than having practical strength.

Don't rip on calisthenics. People can get crazy strong by just doing that.

 

[dc]

Speaking with the myopia of a judo and similar sport fighter for several decades, I used to rely on chinups a lot to make sure I looked good, but in terms of practical strength for the mat - pretty useless

I’m having trouble wrapping my head around this. I must be a different animal, I’ve been fighting most of my life & I find the opposite to be true. I can’t back this up with any studies only my personal experience.

 

[dc]

They target only a few muscle groups in the body, and don't develop practical strength for hardly anything.

Now really confused. The way I do them, they seem to target pretty much every muscle group in the upper body, even the chest.
I know quite a few strong people that can move quality poundage but struggle with chin-ups.

 

[dc]

My beef with these moves regards fighting strength for judo, MMA and BJJ, which I felt were not served by the two moves much - they were good for keeping me in good overall physical condition to handle training, but gave me little in the way of practical strength for fighting, besides of course raw grip strength

Goes to show everyone’s different I suppose. I trained mainly judo, boxing, kickboxing & mma. For a longtime dips, chin-ups, body weight squats & their more challenging versions were my go to strength options. They kept my weight down, which if you compete is very important, & seemed to keep my practical hands on people strength up with the best of them, which I back up with I high win to loss ratio. I never was a very technical competitor either. I’m curious @Kozushi , you’ve got a lot of training experience, did you also compete extensively. I only ask, as from my experience the two can be quite different, especially in weight to strength ratio.

 

[Kozushi]

Now really confused. The way I do them, they seem to target pretty much every muscle group in the upper body, even the chest.
I know quite a few strong people that can move quality poundage but struggle with chin-ups.

What about the reverse though? Do you find good chinuppers able to move weights around?

I think I was taking my chinup strength for granted all those years (I'm talking about 30 years!) I was frustrated because I was certainly weaker in many ways than my "real" weightlifting brethren on the mats. Maybe if I had been doing deadlifts too, I wouldn't have felt this way. Chinups likely complement deadlifts well - one pulls up the other directly down.

 

[Kozushi]

Goes to show everyone’s different I suppose. I trained mainly judo, boxing, kickboxing & mma. For a longtime dips, chin-ups, body weight squats & their more challenging versions were my go to strength options. They kept my weight down, which if you compete is very important, & seemed to keep my practical hands on people strength up with the best of them, which I back up with I high win to loss ratio. I never was a very technical competitor either. I’m curious @Kozushi , you’ve got a lot of training experience, did you also compete extensively. I only ask, as from my experience the two can be quite different, especially in weight to strength ratio.

I was what you'd call a "regional" level competitor back between 2005 and 2011. I fought in stuff called "international/national/provincial championships" but I wouldn't categorize them that way. None of them were qualifiers for anything Olympic level nor professional. However, yes, I do have a reasonable amount of competitive experience for someone not intending to make a living from it. My rule was I'd compete in anything I could drive to and from in less than 2 hours, hehehe.

I was in many more competitions than I got gold in, but here are the golds:

2010 Budokan Masters Champion
2010 Budokan Senior Male -100kg Champion
2009 Eastern Ontario Masters Champion
2009 Senior International Cup Judo Champion;
2009 Copa Ontario BJJ Champion;
2008 Joslin's Canadian Open BJJ Champion;
2008 Budokan Judo Champion;
2008 Budokan Judo Champion - Black Belt division, Senior Male, -90kg.

And indeed, chinups and dips were my only strength-building exercises at that time, and (chuckles to himself) maybe they were doing the trick. I've restarted them as of this morning, thanks to the wisdom of this forum!

Regarding weight, I tried to gain weight before competitions because the heavier guys were normally less skilled than the lighter guys.

There's an old description of me on our old club website here, which I noticed mentions that I do a lot of chinups and pushups as training, hahaha!

Judo4MMA.com - Judo Biography of Christopher Miller

 

[dc]

Regarding weight, I tried to gain weight before competitions because the heavier guys were normally less skilled than the lighter guys.

Oh right. I went the other way cause the bigger guys seemed like monsters to me. Maybe that’s why I felt stronger than a lot of my competition.

 

[Kozushi]

Oh right. I went the other way cause the bigger guys seemed like monsters to me. Maybe that’s why I felt stronger than a lot of my competition.

...and why I felt weaker!

Okay, I'm starting to realize that maybe this was the problem and not chinups and dips, hahaha!

I'm gonna be in a hurry now to get back my callisthenic strength. I relied on it for 30 years and suddenly stopped to do S&S. I need to do both.

 

[dc]

What about the reverse though? Do you find good chinuppers able to move weights around?

Haven’t noticed to be honest. But I know some good chinuppers that can easily move some people around.